Front Page: Ryu To Sign with Toronto. Now What?

[Diesel]

I think the Twins can get a really good pitcher without giving up any of the top 5 prospects. Get a solid pitcher now, get another at the deadline, and this team will be set.

[Otto von Ballpark]

The idea that we are to assume players are lying all the time is getting irritating to read. Bumgarner expresses a desire to pitch in ARI and yet we have people here operating under the assumption that isn’t true.

 

Oh really. Please explain why he’d lie about that after the deal was done? What kind of tactical reasons would he have at this juncture? The deal was done

First of all, I wouldn't call it lying. I think Bumgarner, like most FA, truly believes he could have gotten more if he hadn't concluded the process. Just like they believe one more at-bat and they would have won the game, etc. One probably doesn't get too far in pro sports without some impressive self confidence!

 

As for why, there really is no downside. The player strokes his ego with a higher value, the agent get to claim a larger figure in future negotiations. The player's new team looks better for getting a bargain. The player looks better to his new home team fans. Seriously, look at all the people here praising Wheeler as a good family man who they can relate to, basely solely on that little nugget of info!

 

That's why I take such reports with a grain of salt. Not that players don't have preferences, of course, but I think they fit into the market (i.e. tiebreakers, counter-offers) more than override it (i.e. I'm taking significantly less to sign with one team).

[MABB1959]

And we know they won't spend or can't get it done.  NEVER HAVE NEVER WILL.  

[sweetmusicviola16]

 

This is all I was trying to do. We have too many threads gone off down the path of who the Twins didn’t get, expressing anger and frustration. And I’m not saying that those feelings aren’t justified ... but we don’t need to dump all over every thread. Let’s keep one on track ... what do we do now? And maybe there just isn’t much else to say, in that case I’d suggest a blog if needs still exist to release these emotions rather than derailing every thread with ... cheap, we never get, they could’ve had comments. Let’s keep ONE thread on track ... so, what’s next? If you don’t think they will do anything else, then there isn’t much to say that adds to this particular discussion thread.

What next? I don't think there are a great number of options at this point. Or good ones either. But I would sign Walker first of all. Next is trade. I don't think Ray is really available right now. No to Price and Boyd. Clevinger is not happening here either if anywhere but Cle. Matz would intrigue me but the Mets look to be wanting to contend and I'd think Metz would stay as opposed to Wacha. That leaves Archer as maybe our best option for trade. If this is the best I'd like to see it pursued to success. WE have to have other options than just Smeltzer and Dobnak with no backup in place.

[Squirrel]

And we know they won't spend or can't get it done.  NEVER HAVE NEVER WILL.

 

That’s fair ... so you’re saying that we are at the end of the road and what’s next is nothing?

[chpettit19]

On a sunny day, you might not pay $50 for an umbrella. When it's pouring rain, you will. The Twins rotation has black clouds hanging over it. And Falvey is sitting with a roll of $50's looking for a "deal" and the umbrella store just sold out.

Well I guess he's super lucky that there's raincoats available and others around him with umbrellas they don't want or need and are willing to give him theirs.

 

And I wouldn't spend $50 on an umbrella that has holes in it even if it's pouring rain. I'll find something else to put over my head in the meantime while I wait for the umbrella I'm making to be complete or for one that works and is actually worth $50 to come available. I'd also not spend $50 on an umbrella that gets me out of 1 rain storm, but not any others and then not have the $25 I should have left to get another umbrella later because I paid twice as much for the original umbrella because I freaked out over 1 storm and lost my mind.

[ChiefsKid]

Well I guess he's super lucky that there's raincoats available and others around him with umbrellas they don't want or need and are willing to give him theirs.

And I wouldn't spend $50 on an umbrella that has holes in it even if it's pouring rain. I'll find something else to put over my head in the meantime while I wait for the umbrella I'm making to be complete or for one that works and is actually worth $50 to come available. I'd also not spend $50 on an umbrella that gets me out of 1 rain storm, but not any others and then not have the $25 I should have left to get another umbrella later because I paid twice as much for the original umbrella because I freaked out over 1 storm and lost my mind.

 

Except you've already been through 10 rainstorms and the umbrella you've "been building" is seemingly never coming. You also just came into some extra money and now actually legitimately have $50 to spend on an umbrella.

 

Also, during the next rainstorm that umbrella that costs $50 will cost $55.

 

Also, every umbrella that will actually keep you dry costs at least $50. You just haven't had any additional income in a long time and haven't realized what an umbrella worth having actually costs.

 

You keep waiting for that umbrella factory to finally produce the one you want. In the meantime we'll all be standing out in the rain, soaking wet and miserable.

[mshnd06]

 

I think a lot of us think it's okay to spend a whole bunch of $$$ unwisely this "one" time. I'll take my chances with someone who thinks there's a better way to go about this, to use the extra money this year on one-year moves, to use all the bad money saved in years 3 and 4 or 5 to make a smarter splash next year or thereafter. Cole and Strasburg (and Rendon) were the only real game-changers. After that, I'm not sure we could have anything more than a hope that the addition worked.

 

Falvine's job is to win as much as possible for as long as they're here, with emphasis on championships. Right now Derek Falvey should expect to be here for thirty years and win multiple championships. Why do anything to the detriment of that vision? He and Levine know they have a chance to win in 2020. It's not a good chance no matter what they do. The Yankees, Astros, and then a bunch of others stand in the way. At best the Twins are approx 5% to win the WS after they do something. They will do some things to make the team better, we know they will. But to expect idiocy with money that will improve your chances 1% or 2% is perplexing to me, especially when the moves that will be made will likely get you that same improvement in chances anyway.

 

Of course, and here's the kicker, when things ultimately don't work out, everybody will be blaming the moves they didn't make. Because this group-think mentality we have going on here (Twins fandom) is the king of Captain Hindsight:

 

1. Expect them to do everything.

2. The Twins will lose eventually and certainly be likely  to win less than 101 games. Because, one winner.

3. Blame the FO for not doing the 99% of the things in #1 they didn't do.

 

This is a process. I wish the Twins had been able to sign Zack Wheeler. It turns out there was no realistic chance. If they had signed Wheeler, their chance of winning it all may have improved from 4% to 6%. Now they will do something different, and their chances will improve to 5% or 5.5%. But eventually, when our Klubers, Civales, Biebers, Plesacs, and Carrascos have taken over the rotation and our prospect hitters we keep drafting high are ready and add to Kepler and Co., we'll have a much stronger starting point and be less in need of a major upgrade that, except in our best-case scenarios, stands little chance of being filled to the degree we need, especially at the $$$ we throw at it.

 

It's not idiocy money if that's the market rate for pitching.  There's no evidence that an Indians type rotation is just sitting in our farm system. I hope I'm wrong, but that's pinning a lot on the assumption of an absurdly positive conversion rate of prospects into productive major leaguers.  This is a window, if we're waiting for a bigger window, we're just going to be disappointed.  We're never going to have a 15-20% chance at a world series.  I see nothing to suggest that the "bad money saved"  will be used to spend on a Cole or Strasburg in the future.  In my mind, to win a title in this market you have to take bigger risks and that means spending more money than you're comfortable with on a Ryu or Bumgarner and accepting that it very well might blow up in your face.  I doubt we're getting a sure thing, I doubt a high fraction of our prospects turn into stars and I doubt the current core and the Kiriloff/Lewis/etc "core" will overlap to sufficient efficacy to substantially increase our odds of a title.  What you're advocating is entirely too conservative to my mind and you seem to be pinning an inordinate amount of faith on a front office that has put together one great season by taking advantage of a down AL central

[Elliot]

 

 

[unless they sign with the Yankees...then they head to the Hall of Fame]. They have a way of "handling" those big free agents.

[Elliot]

Jacoby Ellsbury

[BD57]

Unless there's reason to believe we didn't make competitive offers (you guys can let me know if that's the case), it seems the "top end" free agents aren't interested in playing in Minnesota - and if that's the case, there's not much the Twins can do about it . . . The Twins can't create secondary income opportunities for those guys the way other markets can.

 

People tend to ignore that part of free agency . . . . "The Player has a say in where he goes."

[ewen21]

It's not idiocy money if that's the market rate for pitching.

I can’t agree. Just because the market says that’s the price doesn’t mean it gives you value or it’s the right price. I bought townhome in 2005 for 358,000 and sold it in 2017 for 275,000.

 

The market for baseball players is fairy dust and it is absurd to think that salaries will continue to grab at the rate it has over the last 20 years. Kind of like the way the market for baseball cards disintegrated the same will happen with Major League Baseball if they don’t curb salaries someday

[ewen21]

Unless there's reason to believe we didn't make competitive offers (you guys can let me know if that's the case), it seems the "top end" free agents aren't interested in playing in Minnesota - and if that's the case, there's not much the Twins can do about it . . . The Twins can't create secondary income opportunities for those guys the way other markets can.

 

People tend to ignore that part of free agency . . . . "The Player has a say in where he goes."

Pretty much this.

 

The ironic part is those who tout the players right to earn obscene money are often the ones complaining the most about the Twins not signing high price tag free agents. Salaries are so absurd that literally 15% teams are competing for the top guys while the Twins and everyone else sit on the sidelines.

 

If you earn 60 grand a year you don’t buy a Tesla. This is basically what people insist the Twins do and it makes no sense at all to anyone rooted in reality

[ewen21]

I think the Twins can get a really good pitcher without giving up any of the top 5 prospects. Get a solid pitcher now, get another at the deadline, and this team will be set.

. We’d need to give up one of our top two guys and then some to get an impact arm with good years ahead of them. I’m not afraid of that

[Otto von Ballpark]

Unless there's reason to believe we didn't make competitive offers (you guys can let me know if that's the case), it seems the "top end" free agents aren't interested in playing in Minnesota - and if that's the case, there's not much the Twins can do about it . . . The Twins can't create secondary income opportunities for those guys the way other markets can.

 

How much do you think guys like Ryu and Wheeler are making in "secondary income opportunities"? There have been a few discussions on this board about how baseball players aren't particularly marketable compared to other athletes and entertainers. It's worse nationally than locally, but I kinda doubt the Philly cheesesteak equivalent of Sheboygan sausages is a much more lucrative endorsement opportunity, especially not relative to player salaries. Even a $100k difference would only represent half of one percent of Ryu's annual salary.

 

Honest question, how much do guys like Plouffe and Buxton take home from Sheboygan? I could see a lot of better paid vets not even bothering with such deals.

[mshnd06]

 

I can’t agree. Just because the market says that’s the price doesn’t mean it gives you value or it’s the right price. I bought townhome in 2005 for 358,000 and sold it in 2017 for 275,000.

The market for baseball players is fairy dust and it is absurd to think that salaries will continue to grab at the rate it has over the last 20 years. Kind of like the way the market for baseball cards disintegrated the same will happen with Major League Baseball if they don’t curb salaries someday

How are sports salaries anything like the real estate market or the sports card market?  Have salaries ever declined?  You can complain about how high they are but that won't win you a  world series.   If your professed goal is a world series you're likely going to have to play in that allegedly bloated market

[DocBauer]

As I read these comments, I get the sense that some of you people think Falvine wants to fail at their job. That they'd rather unnecessarily save a few dollars than succeed. I do not have time to read crap like that.

 

Disagreeing with not overpaying Ryu is fine. Being bummed that Wheeler, MadBum, Cole, and Strasburg were NEVER going to come here is fine. Thinking Keuchel is something he's not is even okay. Misunderstanding the benefit/detriment of giving big money to average pitching is maybe understandable.

 

But the comments here that imply Falvine has some agenda other than winning championships are both laughable and sad.

 

This!! The FO has done so many good things...I'd give them a solid 90% grade so far, or better, from the ML level all the way down...that I think they have earned at least a little trust and patience for their plan/vision.

[DocBauer]

Going to repeat myself briefly here, though I don't want to and shouldn't have to.

 

IMPACT PITCHING:

 

Kind of hard to define what that means. I guess to some, it means spending $ because that will surely make it so, pick your FA option of choice. Depending on which/who's list you look at, Odorizzi was clearly one of the top 6-10 options available. He's back! He has stated he'd like to stay. Forgetting Cole and Strasburg, his 2020 salary is about right on with the other numbers we've seen. So the Twins wouldn't sign him to a similar extension why? The parameters and want are all there. Pineda was in the top 14 on every list. He's also back, for 2yrs. And they have no "impact" why? Just because they were here before? So because they have already pitched for the Twins before, and done well, they lose value?

 

There is much lamenting and gnashing of teeth...WAY too much so...because the Twins "missed out" on guys ranked LOWER than them simply because they didn't make a signing, and didn't get, for various/whatever reasons for a couple of guys ranked higher. I call B.S.

 

I get it. I'm a lifelong Twins fanatic. I want to be excited and pumped! This team needs a starter equal to Berrios and Odorizzi if not better. Better is pretty damn hard as there isn't a store where you can pick someone off the shelf and plug them in. But again, the powers that be can just throw out $ and terms and hope, or they can also be turned down or decide the numbers just don't make sense at some point.

 

Back to the OP...

 

WHAT TO DO NOW:

 

I wasn't initially on this train but find myself buying a ticket now. I'm intrigued and regrettably hopeful Donaldson isn't just playing the Twins and Nats against Atlanta. (I think that might be his long game). He's not exactly a poor consolation prize.

 

But this is about pitching, primarily.

 

Regardless of the Donaldson situation, I'm looking at a trade for Thor, Ray, Gray and maybe Archer. There are others, of course. I'm not convinced the Mets are out on trading Thor. They have done a good job in building depth and may be looking to add via subtraction. Ray and Gray plug right in and offer up differing scenarios based on control. Archer would probably come cheaper, but could be very interesting for a bounce back in the AL again, and with Johnson working with him.

 

I'm fairly certain the Twins braintrust knows a hell of a lot more than I do, so their favorite/preferred target might not be any of these options. But a trade target HAS to be made at this point.

 

Next, I look hard at someone like Wood or Walker and sign them for a 1+1 type of deal for around $5-6M to compete and provide depth and a possible steal. The second year with an acceptable buyout is important as I want options and flexibility if I guess right. There is still ample opportunity for the kids to impress and develop during the season.

 

I'm trading 2 of my top 10, another 1 or 2 in the next 10, possibly replaced by Cave or Rosario depending on the situation, to acquire a top 2-3 SP. I'm signing a flier with an option for depth. If Donaldson is just playing us, I look for the best 1B or 1B convert...think LeMahieu with the Yankees...to add to the lineup and keep the offense rolling.

[D.C Twins]

 

They might not be hot prospects, but if you look around the league rotations are littered with guys in the 3-5 range who were not hot prospects.

 

Dobnak has had an ERA under 3.20 for his entire minor league career and was superb in SSS of 28.1 major league innings last year.

 

Yes, it's a SSS, but for comparison

 

Dobnak:   7.31 K/9, 1.59 BB/9, 0.32 HR/9  in 2019

Dallas Kuechel for his career:  7.16 K/9, 2.64 BB/9, 0.91 HR/9

 

I know that Dobnak isn't likely to be Kuechel who won a Cy Young, but the potential to be a similar type pitcher is there.  

 

Lewis Thorpe when he has been healthy has been electrifying at every minor league stop and he's 24 years old. In AAA last year he had 11.12 K/9, 2.34 BB/9, 1.21 HR/9 to go with a 3.72 FIP.  While he wasn't shut down dominant, he has the stuff to be at least a mid rotation starter.

 

There is a notion going around that Twins after Berrios and Odo have absolutely nothing and will be forfeiting games after the top 2 in the rotation and it's just not true, they potentially have options, the guys are there.  

 

I would like more options, but just because these guys aren't Top 20 prospects does not mean they can't make a difference.

 

Yikes, in none of the multiverses is it a good idea to go into a season with THREE rotation slots occupied by "they just might make a difference" people.

 

If we were serious, ALL FIVE slots would be filled with a reliable veteran and those "just might be" guys would be competing at AAA to be the replacement for the inevitable injury.

 

There is just no way to spin this problem away, sorry I wish there was.

 

And to get an "impact arm" they realistically need to be willing to give up 2 of their top 5 prospects. Yes it hurts but that will be the price of business.

 

And, spoiler alert, the FO does not have the intestinal fortitude to give those types of prospects away....so....

 

ALL ABOARD!!!

 

The 2020 AAAA Choo Choo train is leaving the station....

 

(don't worry if you miss this one.....it will be making regular round trips throughout the season!)

 

 

 

 

 

[D.C Twins]

 

no one is forgetting that.....but many said the lack of depth was a problem before either happened.....

This just deserves to be read again by everyone.....We actually were FORTUNATE overall with our lack of injuries in our rotation. We will likely need MORE depth in place for success this year....

[Jham]

Going to repeat myself briefly here, though I don't want to and shouldn't have to.

IMPACT PITCHING:

Kind of hard to define what that means. I guess to some, it means spending $ because that will surely make it so, pick your FA option of choice. Depending on which/who's list you look at, Odorizzi was clearly one of the top 6-10 options available. He's back! He has stated he'd like to stay. Forgetting Cole and Strasburg, his 2020 salary is about right on with the other numbers we've seen. So the Twins wouldn't sign him to a similar extension why? The parameters and want are all there. Pineda was in the top 14 on every list. He's also back, for 2yrs. And they have no "impact" why? Just because they were here before? So because they have already pitched for the Twins before, and done well, they lose value?

There is much lamenting and gnashing of teeth...WAY too much so...because the Twins "missed out" on guys ranked LOWER than them simply because they didn't make a signing, and didn't get, for various/whatever reasons for a couple of guys ranked higher. I call B.S.

I get it. I'm a lifelong Twins fanatic. I want to be excited and pumped! This team needs a starter equal to Berrios and Odorizzi if not better. Better is pretty damn hard as there isn't a store where you can pick someone off the shelf and plug them in. But again, the powers that be can just throw out $ and terms and hope, or they can also be turned down or decide the numbers just don't make sense at some point.

Back to the OP...

WHAT TO DO NOW:

I wasn't initially on this train but find myself buying a ticket now. I'm intrigued and regrettably hopeful Donaldson isn't just playing the Twins and Nats against Atlanta. (I think that might be his long game). He's not exactly a poor consolation prize.

But this is about pitching, primarily.

Regardless of the Donaldson situation, I'm looking at a trade for Thor, Ray, Gray and maybe Archer. There are others, of course. I'm not convinced the Mets are out on trading Thor. They have done a good job in building depth and may be looking to add via subtraction. Ray and Gray plug right in and offer up differing scenarios based on control. Archer would probably come cheaper, but could be very interesting for a bounce back in the AL again, and with Johnson working with him.

I'm fairly certain the Twins braintrust knows a hell of a lot more than I do, so their favorite/preferred target might not be any of these options. But a trade target HAS to be made at this point.

Next, I look hard at someone like Wood or Walker and sign them for a 1+1 type of deal for around $5-6M to compete and provide depth and a possible steal. The second year with an acceptable buyout is important as I want options and flexibility if I guess right. There is still ample opportunity for the kids to impress and develop during the season.

I'm trading 2 of my top 10, another 1 or 2 in the next 10, possibly replaced by Cave or Rosario depending on the situation, to acquire a top 2-3 SP. I'm signing a flier with an option for depth. If Donaldson is just playing us, I look for the best 1B or 1B convert...think LeMahieu with the Yankees...to add to the lineup and keep the offense rolling.

I mean, that's all that's left at this point. If we are going to trade for an impact arm, we should have done it last year. We caught lightning in a bottle for half the season. Wins don't carry over. I'll agree that the FO has done an amazing job of turning leftovers and clearance items into a gourmet meal, but no one's getting it confused for Manny's.

 

There's only so many ways to improve your team, especially a good team. Bad teams have upgrade opportunities all over. Good teams have fewer holes. Upgrading an already good roster typically means adding stars or even super stars. This is why the top FA and trade candidates usually require "overpayment". Opportunities to improve already good teams are scarce. We've missed on opportunities to improve a good team. I think it's hubris to assume that 2019 is the real Twins and 2018 an aberration.

[USAFChief]

Going to repeat myself briefly here, though I don't want to and shouldn't have to.

 

IMPACT PITCHING:

 

Kind of hard to define what that means. I guess to some, it means spending $ because that will surely make it so, pick your FA option of choice. Depending on which/who's list you look at, Odorizzi was clearly one of the top 6-10 options available. He's back! He has stated he'd like to stay. Forgetting Cole and Strasburg, his 2020 salary is about right on with the other numbers we've seen. So the Twins wouldn't sign him to a similar extension why? The parameters and want are all there. Pineda was in the top 14 on every list. He's also back, for 2yrs. And they have no "impact" why? Just because they were here before? So because they have already pitched for the Twins before, and done well, they lose value?

 

There is much lamenting and gnashing of teeth...WAY too much so...because the Twins "missed out" on guys ranked LOWER than them simply because they didn't make a signing, and didn't get, for various/whatever reasons for a couple of guys ranked higher. I call B.S.

 

I get it. I'm a lifelong Twins fanatic. I want to be excited and pumped! This team needs a starter equal to Berrios and Odorizzi if not better. Better is pretty damn hard as there isn't a store where you can pick someone off the shelf and plug them in. But again, the powers that be can just throw out $ and terms and hope, or they can also be turned down or decide the numbers just don't make sense at some point.

 

Back to the OP...

 

WHAT TO DO NOW:

 

I wasn't initially on this train but find myself buying a ticket now. I'm intrigued and regrettably hopeful Donaldson isn't just playing the Twins and Nats against Atlanta. (I think that might be his long game). He's not exactly a poor consolation prize.

 

But this is about pitching, primarily.

 

Regardless of the Donaldson situation, I'm looking at a trade for Thor, Ray, Gray and maybe Archer. There are others, of course. I'm not convinced the Mets are out on trading Thor. They have done a good job in building depth and may be looking to add via subtraction. Ray and Gray plug right in and offer up differing scenarios based on control. Archer would probably come cheaper, but could be very interesting for a bounce back in the AL again, and with Johnson working with him.

 

I'm fairly certain the Twins braintrust knows a hell of a lot more than I do, so their favorite/preferred target might not be any of these options. But a trade target HAS to be made at this point.

 

Next, I look hard at someone like Wood or Walker and sign them for a 1+1 type of deal for around $5-6M to compete and provide depth and a possible steal. The second year with an acceptable buyout is important as I want options and flexibility if I guess right. There is still ample opportunity for the kids to impress and develop during the season.

 

I'm trading 2 of my top 10, another 1 or 2 in the next 10, possibly replaced by Cave or Rosario depending on the situation, to acquire a top 2-3 SP. I'm signing a flier with an option for depth. If Donaldson is just playing us, I look for the best 1B or 1B convert...think LeMahieu with the Yankees...to add to the lineup and keep the offense rolling.

Briefly??

 

[ChiefsKid]

Unless there's reason to believe we didn't make competitive offers (you guys can let me know if that's the case), it seems the "top end" free agents aren't interested in playing in Minnesota - and if that's the case, there's not much the Twins can do about it . . . The Twins can't create secondary income opportunities for those guys the way other markets can.

 

People tend to ignore that part of free agency . . . . "The Player has a say in where he goes."

I'm firmly of the belief that the higher end FAs aren't interested in coming to Minnesota *because* we didn't make competitive offers.

Not because of some minor issue like "its cold" or "the secondary income opportunity". They wont come here because the money just isn't here.

 

85% of the accepted offer for Wheeler, and weren't willing to give the extra year to Bumgarner, and who knows why they weren't even in the running for Ryu. My guess is they were not willing to add the 4th year again.

 

Just because 5/100 is the highest offer the Twins were willing to go and represents what would have been by far the highest FA contract in Twins history does not in and of itself make it a "competitive" offer.

[MABB1959]

 

That’s fair ... so you’re saying that we are at the end of the road and what’s next is nothing?

 

It sure seems like it.  Hoping 2019 wasn't a fluke like it seemed 2017 was.  Latest big name signing was Cruz it was awesome but not huge. Twins right now have 2 players over 10m an year.  A pitcher and a DH.  Odorizzi plays every 5 day and Cruz bats 4 maybe 5 times a game.   The fans came back and it is time to do something huge now

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kenbuddha]

 

I'm firmly of the belief that the higher end FAs aren't interested in coming to Minnesota *because* we didn't make competitive offers.
Not because of some minor issue like "its cold" or "the secondary income opportunity". They wont come here because the money just isn't here.

85% of the accepted offer for Wheeler, and weren't willing to give the extra year to Bumgarner, and who knows why they weren't even in the running for Ryu. My guess is they were not willing to add the 4th year again.

Just because 5/100 is the highest offer the Twins were willing to go and represents what would have been by far the highest FA contract in Twins history does not in and of itself make it a "competitive" offer.

I agree with you about the secondary money stuff.

 

But what part of "Wheeler turned down a higher offer in order to sign with Philadelphia and stay in the NL East" and "Bumgarner turned down a higher offer in order to sign with Arizona and stay in the NL West" are you choosing to ignore? With these two, it wasn't going to happen.

 

Ryu? Look at his age (33) and history (1 season with over 130 IP in the last 4). You have a FO that uses analytics, do you seriously think they would value Ryu all that much? Even if you don't use analytics much, why would you put any sort of long term value on Ryu?

 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

But what part of "Wheeler turned down a higher offer in order to sign with Philadelphia and stay in the NL East" and "Bumgarner turned down a higher offer in order to sign with Arizona and stay in the NL West" are you choosing to ignore? With these two, it wasn't going to happen.

 

Sure it would have.

 

Bumgarner signed for 5/85. Do you think he would have listened to a slightly front-loaded contract offer for 4/81 with an opt-out after year two?

 

Wheeler signed for 5/118. Do you think he would have listened to an offer for 4/112?

[prouster]

Sure it would have.

 

Bumgarner signed for 5/85. Do you think he would have listened to a slightly front-loaded contract offer for 4/81 with an opt-out after year two?

 

Wheeler signed for 5/118. Do you think he would have listened to an offer for 4/112?

We already know Bumgarner turned down larger offers to go to Arizona, because he specifically wanted to live and work there. We also know Wheeler turned down slightly more money from the White Sox.

 

Why would they take even less to play in a spot that apparently wasn’t all that desirable to either of them?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

We already know Bumgarner turned down larger offers to go to Arizona, because he specifically wanted to live and work there. We also know Wheeler turned down slightly more money from the White Sox.

Why would they take even less to play in a spot that apparently wasn’t all that desirable to either of them?

Almost the same money, one less year?

[nick_hansen]

I'm firmly of the belief that the higher end FAs aren't interested in coming to Minnesota *because* we didn't make competitive offers.

Not because of some minor issue like "its cold" or "the secondary income opportunity". They wont come here because the money just isn't here.

85% of the accepted offer for Wheeler, and weren't willing to give the extra year to Bumgarner, and who knows why they weren't even in the running for Ryu. My guess is they were not willing to add the 4th year again.

Just because 5/100 is the highest offer the Twins were willing to go and represents what would have been by far the highest FA contract in Twins history does not in and of itself make it a "competitive" offer.

 

^^^Exactly. Offering up a good sum of money but notably less than what other teams offered is not impressive. The fact is that we didn’t make Wheeler a competitive offer and you could say it was pretty much a “non-offer.” Yeah, I understand that Wheeler and his fiancé/wife had ties back East, but the reality here is that we don’t know what they would’ve done if we would’ve extended a real offer. What is a “real offer”? In my mind, it is something in the ballpark of the contract given to Corbin (6/$140M).

[USAFChief]

We already know Bumgarner turned down larger offers to go to Arizona, because he specifically wanted to live and work there. We also know Wheeler turned down slightly more money from the White Sox.

 

Why would they take even less to play in a spot that apparently wasn’t all that desirable to either of them?

we already know Bumgarner SAID he turned down larger offers.