Ryu to Toronto

[Battle ur tail off]

 

Hopefully someone like Dustin Morse, who has a voice at the table, and has been around for a while will explain to Falvey and Levine what a monumental mistake the last 2 months have been. 

They are young and inexperienced. They are getting schooled so far this offseason and I would also say last trade deadline. Every Free Agent they were "IN" on, used them to get a better deal, that is it.

 

 

[SwainZag]

 

Cheap and stubborn. That is what we have here. They absolutely HAD to sign one of these top 3-4 guys to slot in between Berrios and Odorizzi. Plus they need to trade for another arm to slot in there in the 4-5th spot.

 

Free agents accross the league just saw this offseason happen, expect to never get the benefit of the doubt until the team is sold.

 

They are the smartest GMs in all of baseball though, so have faith. I'm sure our #22 prospect will net us that ace that no one else in baseball knows about except Falvine. 

 

Did they HAVE to sign one of them? No.  It would have been really nice seeing one of those names in our rotation right now, but this idea they had to sign one of the sexy big free agent names or else its a complete failure is getting a bit out of control.

[Vanimal46]

Did they HAVE to sign one of them? No. It would have been really nice seeing one of those names in our rotation right now, but this idea they had to sign one of the sexy big free agent names or else its a complete failure is getting a bit out of control.

What does “We’re going to target impact pitching” mean to you? To me, that meant signing one of the top 5-7 free agents.

[nicksaviking]

I would have liked Ryu and would have been OK with the injury risk, but if the front office thought the injury risk was greater than I do that's fine.

 

My concern is that the Twins are/were thinking that they could only budget for one of Donaldson or Ryu, so they didn't make a final offer on Ryu because they are intent on getting Donaldson. So if they don't, well that's going to be a problem for me. And if Washington is offering 4 years like the Twins, I have a hard time seeing him pick us over the World Series champs.

 

I still think there's a silver lining to all of this though. The team is going to have to trade for their impact pitching. I know everyone is upset and saying "same old Twins" kind of stuff, but that's not anything close to the truth. Even when the team was mostly bad they were signing Cruz, Gonzalez, Lynn, Santana, Reed, Nolasco, Castro type guys and except for a couple of sketchy corner OF bats, there aren't any free agents of even that level left. They've never "done nothing", so I don't know why everyone thinks doing nothing was the plan all along this year. 

[nicksaviking]

 

What does “We’re going to target impact pitching” mean to you? To me, that meant signing one of the top 5-7 free agents.

 

But every other year they sign one of the top 5-7 free agent pitchers, so I don't know how that would be different than normal expectations. If the implication was that they'd do something bold and different, I think that more accurately would reflect the intention of trading for an impact arm.

 

Though I fully think they expected to get a free agent instead or in addition to a trade, but didn't see the market doing a complete 180 from the past two years.

[Battle ur tail off]

 

Did they HAVE to sign one of them? No.  It would have been really nice seeing one of those names in our rotation right now, but this idea they had to sign one of the sexy big free agent names or else its a complete failure is getting a bit out of control.

 

Yep, they did. Almost 100%. Unless their plan is to trade away, Lewis, Graterol, and Kiriloff and probably more. That will net you a #2 starter and a #4 starter. 

Anything else is flat out non-competitve in a playoff series. 

 

Of course, they could sign a #5 starter and trade 2-3 of those guys for a high end guy, I guess that could happen. The problem is, they could have had a starter to slot in that spot for just money, then traded guys not even in our top ten for that back of the rotation arm. 

 

For the position they are in and money they have to spend, yes it is a complete failure and they look silly and outmatched so far. 

[howeda7]

 

It's incredible that the Twins Organization has managed to completely kill every piece of momentum that the 101 win Bomba Squad created for them. 

 

All the "kicking down the door" talk and "impact pitching" promises just ended up being complete BS. My big fear isn't a financial one. I don't think the Twins are necessarily afraid to spend money. I think they have a crippling fear of spending money poorly and I'm worried that the front office, honestly, just doesn't understand the market/situation. 

 

I know they can still add pitching via trade, but that should always be last resort. We could've added pitching for just money. Now it will cost money and your precious prospects.

 

Good job proving the trolls correct, front office. You really fouled up what should've been an incredible opportunity.

 

And this is coming from someone who 99.9% of the time is defending the decisions made by the front office. 

I believe Falvey got caught thinking he was the smartest guy in the room. Both at the trade deadline and now. Instead he looks like an inexperienced fool in way over his head.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Ridiculous. I didn’t even want Ryu that much and would have paid that given the Twins need for pitching.

 

This front office needs to get over the fear of signing a bad contract and just pay what it takes to get a good freakin’ pitcher.

[howeda7]

 

Ridiculous. I didn’t even want Ryu that much and would have paid that given the Twins need for pitching.

This front office needs to get over the fear of signing a bad contract and just pay what it takes to get a good freakin’ pitcher.

Too late now.

[Vanimal46]

But every other year they sign one of the top 5-7 free agent pitchers, so I don't know how that would be different than normal expectations. If the implication was that they'd do something bold and different, I think that more accurately would reflect the intention of trading for an impact arm.

 

Though I fully think they expected to get a free agent instead or in addition to a trade, but didn't see the market doing a complete 180 from the past two years.

The FA SP market is better this year than the last 5-10 years, don’t you think? So no, I don’t agree it would have been the same as usual. If they didn’t see the market turning around and have more competition for free agents that’s on them. They’re paid handsomely to know the market more than us simpleton fans.

[nicksaviking]

 

The FA SP market is better this year than the last 5-10 years, don’t you think? So no, I don’t agree it would have been the same as usual. If they didn’t see the market turning around and have more competition for free agents that’s on them. They’re paid handsomely to know the market more than us simpleton fans.

 

I think it was better at the very top, but I don't think Wheeler/Ryu/2020Bumgarner are really anything better than what we normally see. I think the perception is different for two reasons, 1) the second tier free agent pitchers more often than not do not fair well so we remember the struggles of Nolasco/Lynn/Santana, but we have not yet seen it from these guys (not that I'll assume they'll struggle), and 2) these guys got paid way more than they would have in past years so the money makes it look like they're better. No one was giving Lynn or Cobb deals in line with the QOs they rejected back then; with their warts and worries, had Ryu and Bumgarner been free agents in the classes of 2017-19 I'd guess they'd be in the same boat still looking for multi year deals and having to settle for something much less come February.

 

Good for them, bad for us. I'm more disappointed that the front office didn't seem to see this market correction coming more than anything.

[jkcarew]

Look, I don't think any of these signings are slam dunks. And was never highly confident the 'impact' pitching signing would happen. Still, I thought there was a decent chance that the FO would hit on one of these guys somewhere along the line. Bad plan, poor reads on the market, too passive, maybe a bad break or two, we don't know...whatever. Failure. You either assume the FO wasn't trying...or that they tried and failed. FWIW...I feel it's fairly obvious that they thought they were trying...and simply have failed. It makes me more sad than mad. Mad assumes they can execute a good plan when they want to.

[AlwaysinModeration]

...this idea they had to sign one of the sexy big free agent...

Wait, Bartolo Colón is still available?

[SwainZag]

 

Wait, Bartolo Colón is still available?

 

Sexy and available as ever.

 

https://sportsnaut.com/2019/12/bartolo-colon-wants-to-return-to-mlb-at-46/

[tvagle]

 

When is Luis Roberts coming up to make impact?

Hopefully he makes Falvine IMPACT

[KirbyDome89]

I guess this cements the notion that this FO is primarily interested in contract value above all else. That's a nice way of saying they're only intent on getting a very favorable deal. I'd love to know why they're insistent on talking up FAs if their plan is to offer well below market value, or fail to bid altogether. FA isn't about value, it's about need, and you're forced to pay to meet that need. 

 

Also, if we're supposed to now hold out hope for a huge trade either this offseason or at the deadline (yeah, the goalposts have now moved that far) why should there be any confidence in that happening? The going rate for a SP is only going to increase as we move forward. In FA they only had to commit cash; now we're looking at both absorbing a contract and parting with young, team controlled talent, and most likely a good amount of that talent will be high end in terms of prospect rankings. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

I guess this cements the notion that this FO is primarily interested in contract value above all else. That's a nice way of saying they're only intent on getting a very favorable deal. I'd love to know why they're insistent on talking up FAs if their plan is to offer well below market value, or fail to bid altogether. FA isn't about value, it's about need, and you're forced to pay to meet that need.

 

Also, if we're supposed to now hold out hope for a huge trade either this offseason or at the deadline (yeah, the goalposts have now moved that far) why should there be any confidence in that happening? The going rate for a SP is only going to increase as we move forward. In FA they only had to commit cash; now we're looking at both absorbing a contract and parting with young, team controlled talent, and most likely a good amount of that talent will be high end in terms of prospect rankings.

I don’t really care about the prospect capital at this point, I just want the front office to go get the pitcher they are most confident in going forward.

 

I believe the same about free agency, it’s why I don’t really cling to specific names. Go get the player they think has the most potential.

 

But if they swing and miss entirely, that’s a problem.

[nicksaviking]

 

Also, if we're supposed to now hold out hope for a huge trade either this offseason or at the deadline (yeah, the goalposts have now moved that far) why should there be any confidence in that happening? The going rate for a SP is only going to increase as we move forward. In FA they only had to commit cash; now we're looking at both absorbing a contract and parting with young, team controlled talent, and most likely a good amount of that talent will be high end in terms of prospect rankings. 

 

The goalposts haven't been moved, I've been asking for trades over free agents all off season. With the free agents gone, that makes the trades more likely, not less.

[spanman2]

 

What does “We’re going to target impact pitching” mean to you? To me, that meant signing one of the top 5-7 free agents.

Correct...their words not the fan bases.  Difficult to argue that fact.

[Mike Sixel]

 

The goalposts haven't been moved, I've been asking for trades over free agents all off season. With the free agents gone, that makes the trades more likely, not less.

 

The entire board spent the last three years telling me, Van, and chief to calm down, when the team was good they'd go sign real free agents.

 

yes, the goal posts have moved. Maybe not by you individually, but yes, they have.

[cardsfan]

It's incredible that the Twins Organization has managed to completely kill every piece of momentum that the 101 win Bomba Squad created for them.

 

All the "kicking down the door" talk and "impact pitching" promises just ended up being complete BS. My big fear isn't a financial one. I don't think the Twins are necessarily afraid to spend money. I think they have a crippling fear of spending money poorly and I'm worried that the front office, honestly, just doesn't understand the market/situation.

 

I know they can still add pitching via trade, but that should always be last resort. We could've added pitching for just money. Now it will cost money and your precious prospects.

 

Good job proving the trolls correct, front office. You really fouled up what should've been an incredible opportunity.

 

And this is coming from someone who 99.9% of the time is defending the decisions made by the front office.

The Twins were 40 games over .500, but were 7 games under .500 against winning teams. Then swept by the Yankees in 3 games in Postseason.

 

Another year for minor league pitching to develop.

[ashbury]

They are young and inexperienced. They are getting schooled so far this offseason and I would also say last trade deadline.

Thad Levine is 48 years old and has a normal looking resume for a GM. Falvey's younger, but this "the whiz kids" narrative was never strong and by now is old and busted.

 

[drivlikejehu]

 

Did they HAVE to sign one of them? No.  It would have been really nice seeing one of those names in our rotation right now, but this idea they had to sign one of the sexy big free agent names or else its a complete failure is getting a bit out of control.

 

A lot of people are going overboard, given the available trade avenue. But I do think the front office built up the expectation that they would so *something* in free agency. This seems like an unforced error . . . they would be getting criticized regardless but the communication aspect of it definitely made it worse. 

[Mr. Brooks]

The goalposts haven't been moved, I've been asking for trades over free agents all off season. With the free agents gone, that makes the trades more likely, not less.

I don't see a whole lot of "impact" starting pitchers on the trade market though.

[Mike Sixel]

 

A lot of people are going overboard, given the available trade avenue. But I do think the front office built up the expectation that they would so *something* in free agency. This seems like an unforced error . . . they would be getting criticized regardless but the communication aspect of it definitely made it worse. 

 

What available trade avenue do we know is out there? I mean, they passed on Stroman and Gallan last year. Are there going to be better pitchers traded now?

[amjgt]

I'm not saying this is definitely a factor, but do you think it's possible that the service time mistreatment of Byron Buxton in 2018 is causing some agents to push their clients in other directions?

 

Edited to add: Zach Wheeler has the same agency as Buxton

[Mike Sixel]

 

I'm not saying this is definitely a factor, but do you think it's possible that the service time mistreatment of Byron Buxton in 2018 is causing some agents to push their clients in other directions?

 

I'd guess it's about money. Then money. Then personal preferences for other locales or teams. But mostly money.

[amjgt]

 

I'd guess it's about money. Then money. Then personal preferences for other locales or teams. But mostly money.

 

Normally I'd say that's the case, but we have two definite cases this year, where guys took significantly less money than their top offer.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Normally I'd say that's the case, but we have two definite cases this year, where guys took significantly less money than their top offer.

 

Check out this link. I don't think its about anything but mostly money, given how many went someplace else.

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/roster-resource/free-agent-tracker?pos=sp

[amjgt]

 

Check out this link. I don't think its about anything but mostly money, given how many went someplace else.

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/roster-resource/free-agent-tracker?pos=sp

 

Maybe I'm confused about what you are saying....

 

We know Wheeler left $7M on the table to play in Philly and not Chicago

We know Bumgarner left AT LEAST $15M on the table (and agreed to incredibly friendly terms) to play in AZ. And it was likely more like $25M on the table.

 

We know these things.