Go get Dallas Keuchel

[Vanimal46]

People talk about the inevitable decline, which IMO is premature. What Keuchel brings to the White Sox clubhouse is leadership in several aspects. What’s it like to pitch in the playoffs? Keuchel knows. How does someone like Giolito pitch like a Cy Young award winner? Keuchel knows. What’s it like pitching and winning a World Series? Keuchel knows.

 

Who’s the leader on the Twins’ staff? Berrios with 1 career post season start?

[old nurse]

 

Right now we are suggesting guys like Nova, a guy the White Sox don't want back, or a guy like Wood someone the Reds don't even want back??

Those guys aren't going to make their former clubs rotation, yet they'd be our #3 for the first 40 games. There is a problem. I mean might as well bring back Perez?

I don't think the Red Sox will trade him

[old nurse]

 

 

People talk about the inevitable decline, which IMO is premature. What Keuchel brings to the White Sox clubhouse is leadership in several aspects. What’s it like to pitch in the playoffs? Keuchel knows. How does someone like Giolito pitch like a Cy Young award winner? Keuchel knows. What’s it like pitching and winning a World Series? Keuchel knows.

Who’s the leader on the Twins’ staff? Berrios with 1 career post season start?

Keuchel was not very good in the World Series. I supose he can teach them what not to do.

[SwainZag]

 

I was obviously higher on Keuchel than others - I think he'd comfortably be our second best pitcher and, like Berrios, give us close to 200 innings.

 

I don't think there is another pitcher out there with both the stuff and work horse ability left out there. Nova could give us those innings but he's a solid #5 type. Ryu is a stud but I don't think he'll pitch more than 150 innings going forward. I honestly don't know where the Twins will spend the money they might have left anymore. They can probably bring in more bullpen arms and some 4/5 for the rotation if they wanted. I don't imagine they'll sign Donaldson or Ryu. At this point, I'm not even sure they should spend much more in FA, payroll concerns be damned.

 

Give me Jake over Kuechel anyday of the week.  

 

Kuechel got crushed the 3rd time thru the order last season.  His numbers dropped off drastically to a tune of: 6.59 ERA, 6.70 FIP, 6.59 K/9, 1.62 K/BB ratio.  The 28.2 IP he pitched in those situations were 25% of the innings he tossed last season.

 

Is being an innings eater like that really a positive when you fall off the cliff that bad in the later innings?  With better bullpen use, realistically could limit him to 150-160 innings and improve results.  But in the end is that worth paying 18M per for a guy who has trouble hitting 90 MPH, induces a lot of ground balls to a shaky infield defense into his mid-30's?  

[Vanimal46]

Keuchel was not very good in the World Series. I supose he can teach them what not to do.

Lessons can be learned in success and failure... Who would Dobnak/Smeltzer/etc. reach out to if they’re struggling in the season? Berrios, who’s just as young as them?

[sweetmusicviola16]

 

Give me Jake over Kuechel anyday of the week.  

 

Kuechel got crushed the 3rd time thru the order last season.  His numbers dropped off drastically to a tune of: 6.59 ERA, 6.70 FIP, 6.59 K/9, 1.62 K/BB ratio.  The 28.2 IP he pitched in those situations were 25% of the innings he tossed last season.

 

Is being an innings eater like that really a positive when you fall off the cliff that bad in the later innings?  With better bullpen use, realistically could limit him to 150-160 innings and improve results.  But in the end is that worth paying 18M per for a guy who has trouble hitting 90 MPH, induces a lot of ground balls to a shaky infield defense into his mid-30's?  

So what's the difference then since both Keuchel and Odo are 5 inning pitchers? They're both making the same money. Most everyone on here is all in to give Jake 18mil. fwiw I have no issue in passing on Keuchel. But this team needs some SP's badly. What's your answer?

[SwainZag]

 

Lessons can be learned in success and failure... Who would Dobnak/Smeltzer/etc. reach out to if they’re struggling in the season? Berrios, who’s just as young as them?

 

Let's hope one of the coaches?  Just because a guy has been there doesn't make him an aura of wisdom or a magical great leader and on field coach during struggling times.  

 

Edit: I know nothing about Kuechel and he very might well be a great leader and teacher in the dugout, but I'd be careful assuming that just because he has Cy Young and pitched in the postseason that he automatically possess that

[SwainZag]

 

So what's the difference then since both Keuchel and Odo are 5 inning pitchers? They're both making the same money. Most everyone on here is all in to give Jake 18mil. fwiw I have no issue in passing on Keuchel. But this team needs some SP's badly. What's your answer?

 

Odo is on a 1 year contract, has a much higher K rate, especially last season and is predominately a fly ball pitcher which suits this team a lot better.  Jake also is coming off a very strong season. 1 year at 17.M at age 29 is a lot different than 3 years at 18.5 at ages 32-35.  

 

Kuechel seems to be trending the wrong way, doesn't fit the team and throwing that kind of money at him, which he looks like at best #3 starter going forward just seems foolish and a waste of resources IMO.  Ryu is still out there.  I am still banking on this team making a trade this offseason to add a starter.  It's still December.  A lot of these posts read like Opening Day is next week.  It's over 3 months away still.  

[KirbyDome89]

 

Give me Jake over Kuechel anyday of the week.  

 

Kuechel got crushed the 3rd time thru the order last season.  His numbers dropped off drastically to a tune of: 6.59 ERA, 6.70 FIP, 6.59 K/9, 1.62 K/BB ratio.  The 28.2 IP he pitched in those situations were 25% of the innings he tossed last season.

 

Is being an innings eater like that really a positive when you fall off the cliff that bad in the later innings?  With better bullpen use, realistically could limit him to 150-160 innings and improve results.  But in the end is that worth paying 18M per for a guy who has trouble hitting 90 MPH, induces a lot of ground balls to a shaky infield defense into his mid-30's?  

All starting pitchers struggle the third time through the lineup. Odorizzi is notoriously awful his third trip too. Almost every negative you listed about Keuchel applies to Odorizzi apart from the contact stats. MN was happy to pay Odo 18M; Kuechel getting the same isn't a stretch. 

[Jham]

Give me Jake over Kuechel anyday of the week.

 

Kuechel got crushed the 3rd time thru the order last season. His numbers dropped off drastically to a tune of: 6.59 ERA, 6.70 FIP, 6.59 K/9, 1.62 K/BB ratio. The 28.2 IP he pitched in those situations were 25% of the innings he tossed last season.

 

Is being an innings eater like that really a positive when you fall off the cliff that bad in the later innings? With better bullpen use, realistically could limit him to 150-160 innings and improve results. But in the end is that worth paying 18M per for a guy who has trouble hitting 90 MPH, induces a lot of ground balls to a shaky infield defense into his mid-30's?

Not saying I disagree, per se, but didn't Odorizzi gave up the most homeruns in baseball in multiple seasons? Last year he had his lowest HR total despite the ball having less drag (or because his high fastball had less drag). He's a pretty strong regression candidate, imo. I see Kuechel being a decent bouncer back candidate actually given a full spring training.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Odo is on a 1 year contract, has a much higher K rate, especially last season and is predominately a fly ball pitcher which suits this team a lot better.  Jake also is coming off a very strong season. 1 year at 17.M at age 29 is a lot different than 3 years at 18.5 at ages 32-35.  

 

Kuechel seems to be trending the wrong way, doesn't fit the team and throwing that kind of money at him, which he looks like at best #3 starter going forward just seems foolish and a waste of resources IMO.  Ryu is still out there.  I am still banking on this team making a trade this offseason to add a starter.  It's still December.  A lot of these posts read like Opening Day is next week.  It's over 3 months away still.  

Jake is coming off a strong 1st half. He wasn't the same pitcher in the 2nd half of last season. MN is gambling that they can get another strong 3-4 months out of him, and I'm fine with that for 18M. Why wouldn't the Twins want to sign a guy they can slot into the 3 spot? They'll be without Pineda for 2 months and he's far from a lock to stay healthy. Other than Berrios and Odo it's a bunch of question marks and AAAA guys in the rotation. I honestly don't understand why so many seem content to punt on FA and hang their hat on a big trade happening. 

[notoriousgod71]

 

I never saw Kuechel as a good fit here with the current state of their infield defense.  I know he's another pitcher off the board, but one I'm not going to lose sleep over not signing here.

So the front office decides they don't care about infield defense but won't sign elite pitchers that miss bats and "pitch-to-contact" pitchers aren't a good fit.

 

This organization...

[SwainZag]

 

All starting pitchers struggle the third time through the lineup. Odorizzi is notoriously awful his third trip too. Almost every negative you listed about Keuchel applies to Odorizzi apart from the contact stats. MN was happy to pay Odo 18M; Kuechel getting the same isn't a stretch. 

 

Yeah, except the Twins limit Odorizzi.  If a team limited Kuechel like they did Odorizzi he isn't labeled "a true innings eater" and "workhorse" and he's throwing closer to 170 innings instead of 200.  That was the point I was trying to make.

 

MN was happy to give Odo a 1 year deal for 18M coming off a career best season where is velocity is up, strikeouts are up and walks are down.

 

Kuechel is trending the opposite way and got a contract for 3 years at the same amount.  They are two very different situations here. 

 

 

[SwainZag]

 

Jake is coming off a strong 1st half. He wasn't the same pitcher in the 2nd half of last season. MN is gambling that they can get another strong 3-4 months out of him, and I'm fine with that for 18M. Why wouldn't the Twins want to sign a guy they can slot into the 3 spot? They'll be without Pineda for 2 months and he's far from a lock to stay healthy. Other than Berrios and Odo it's a bunch of question marks and AAAA guys in the rotation. I honestly don't understand why so many seem content to punt on FA and hang their hat on a big trade happening. 

 

Outside of ERA, his 2nd half was actually stronger.

 

He had a higher K/9, lower BB/9, lower HR/9, lower xFIP and FIP in the 2nd half of season.  The big difference was the BABIP of .268 in the 1st half and .342 in the 2nd half.

 

[SwainZag]

 

So the front office decides they don't care about infield defense but won't sign elite pitchers that miss bats and "pitch-to-contact" pitchers aren't a good fit.

 

This organization...

 

Their infield defense is what it is at this point. Instead of overhauling the whole thing they went against not signing a soft tossing ground ball pitcher for top of the rotation money, and I don't see that as a bad move.  I see a lot of you disagree with me, but I think it was a solid pass on their part.

[drivlikejehu]

 

Their infield defense is what it is at this point. Instead of overhauling the whole thing they went against not signing a soft tossing ground ball pitcher for top of the rotation money, and I don't see that as a bad move.  I see a lot of you disagree with me, but I think it was a solid pass on their part.

 

Yeah, the idea that the Twins could/should get rid of Sano, Polanco, and Arraez, get 3 good defensive infielders, and then sign Keuchel, would be a stretch even for a video game.

[Mike Sixel]

Yeah, the idea that the Twins could/should get rid of Sano, Polanco, and Arraez, get 3 good defensive infielders, and then sign Keuchel, would be a stretch even for a video game.

Did anyone suggest this?

[Battle ur tail off]

Outside of ERA, his 2nd half was actually stronger.

 

He had a higher K/9, lower BB/9, lower HR/9, lower xFIP and FIP in the 2nd half of season. The big difference was the BABIP of .268 in the 1st half and .342 in the 2nd half.

Then why did they go one year on him? If he’s great better than all these guys signing, surely the Twins could have worked out a 2-4 year deal with him right? Except they didn’t, because they are cheap, and they are smarter than everyone else, right?

[drivlikejehu]

 

Did anyone suggest this?

 

Those are the players the Twins have. Playing them doesn't mean the front office "doesn't care about infield defense," which is exactly what the poster claimed. It's just not true. But it's not something they can fix with a snap of the fingers.

[SwainZag]

 

Then why did they go one year on him? If he’s great better than all these guys signing, surely the Twins could have worked out a 2-4 year deal with him right? Except they didn’t, because they are cheap, and they are smarter than everyone else, right?

 

Who said anything about him being better than all these guys signing?  He had a better year than Kuechel did last year and he's 2+ years younger.  Both of those things are factual. He accepted the qualifying offer.  We have no idea if the Twins tried to extend a 3-4 year deal to him and declined and accepted instead.  

 

If you want to think they are cheap and think they are smarter than everyone else, then go right ahead.

[Mike Sixel]

Those are the players the Twins have. Playing them doesn't mean the front office "doesn't care about infield defense," which is exactly what the poster claimed. It's just not true. But it's not something they can fix with a snap of the fingers.

I agree, but I'm not sure anyone suggested getting rid of all three.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Yeah, except the Twins limit Odorizzi.  If a team limited Kuechel like they did Odorizzi he isn't labeled "a true innings eater" and "workhorse" and he's throwing closer to 170 innings instead of 200.  That was the point I was trying to make.

 

MN was happy to give Odo a 1 year deal for 18M coming off a career best season where is velocity is up, strikeouts are up and walks are down.

 

Kuechel is trending the opposite way and got a contract for 3 years at the same amount.  They are two very different situations here. 

I'm not concerned about the innings. Yes, they matter, and the more innings thrown by competent pitchers the better off you are as a team, but 150-160 good innings from a #3 starter is totally fine with me. 

 

Keuchel isn't really trending in any direction, at least not in any significant way to move him off that solid mid rotation tier. 

[Vanimal46]

Let's hope one of the coaches? Just because a guy has been there doesn't make him an aura of wisdom or a magical great leader and on field coach during struggling times.

 

Edit: I know nothing about Kuechel and he very might well be a great leader and teacher in the dugout, but I'd be careful assuming that just because he has Cy Young and pitched in the postseason that he automatically possess that

Or perhaps just a tiny bit of research before posting will help. As you said, you know nothing about Keuchel. But that didn’t stop you from immediately dismissing his leadership.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danschlossberg/2019/07/28/braves-relish-experience-dallas-keuchel-brought-with-him/

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/philrogers/2019/12/21/credit-white-sox-with-smart-signing-even-if-keuchel-is-more-like-buehrle-than-sale/

 

https://theathletic.com/1479468/2019/12/21/dallas-keuchel-is-a-key-addition-for-the-white-sox-and-an-even-more-crucial-statement/?source=shared-article

[KirbyDome89]

 

Outside of ERA, his 2nd half was actually stronger.

 

He had a higher K/9, lower BB/9, lower HR/9, lower xFIP and FIP in the 2nd half of season.  The big difference was the BABIP of .268 in the 1st half and .342 in the 2nd half.

That K/9 in the 2nd half is buoyed by a 4 game stretch in September when he put up 33K in 22 IPs. 17 of those innings were against Detroit and the Sox who weren't even fielding major league teams at that point. His SO/W and WHIP both dove significantly in July and August. His Slugging and OPS spiked during those months as well. Yeah, his BABIP likely won't be near .342, but it'll certainly sit higher than his .268 in first half, and the jump wasn't just due to hitters bleeding balls through a leaky infield. His 2nd half put him squarely between his 17' and 18' seasons, which would be about league average. The Twins need that, so it isn't 18M poorly spent, but I'm not holding out much hope that we see Odorizzi repeat his April/May performance. 

[Battle ur tail off]

Well you just said he is better than Keuchel. I don’t know. I guess if I was a gm and I identified a starter in my own organization that is better than free agents that are getting 3-5 year deals and my guy is younger, I would have locked him up. 1-year deal though then he’s gone so there’s that

[sweetmusicviola16]

 

Odo is on a 1 year contract, has a much higher K rate, especially last season and is predominately a fly ball pitcher which suits this team a lot better.  Jake also is coming off a very strong season. 1 year at 17.M at age 29 is a lot different than 3 years at 18.5 at ages 32-35.  

 

Kuechel seems to be trending the wrong way, doesn't fit the team and throwing that kind of money at him, which he looks like at best #3 starter going forward just seems foolish and a waste of resources IMO.  Ryu is still out there.  I am still banking on this team making a trade this offseason to add a starter.  It's still December.  A lot of these posts read like Opening Day is next week.  It's over 3 months away still.  

The skepticisim of this FO to acquire the SP's we need is quite warranted imo. They themselves are the ones who put out the notice of getting "impact" arms. This off season is now about half over and they have yet to come through. They have failed. The problem is we needed the same impact arm last off season and we got Martin Perez instead. They needed him still during the 2019 season. We got Sergio Romo and another injured RP instead. But until they acquire the fore mentioned impact arm I will continue to doubt them. Maybe they get it done with Ryu. Maybe they can trade Sano for Snell or someone like him.

 

As I said I'm neither here nor there on not signing Keuchel at this point. With the need of this org he should have been signed in March however.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Jake is coming off a strong 1st half. He wasn't the same pitcher in the 2nd half of last season. MN is gambling that they can get another strong 3-4 months out of him, and I'm fine with that for 18M. Why wouldn't the Twins want to sign a guy they can slot into the 3 spot? They'll be without Pineda for 2 months and he's far from a lock to stay healthy. Other than Berrios and Odo it's a bunch of question marks and AAAA guys in the rotation. I honestly don't understand why so many seem content to punt on FA and hang their hat on a big trade happening.

I’m not content to abandon FA but I’m content to abandon Keuchel at that price.

 

But the FA ship has mostly sailed. That doesn’t mean it was okay the Twins missed out on so many players but it is the reality of the situation.

[sweetmusicviola16]

 

Well you just said he is better than Keuchel. I don’t know. I guess if I was a gm and I identified a starter in my own organization that is better than free agents that are getting 3-5 year deals and my guy is younger, I would have locked him up. 1-year deal though then he’s gone so there’s that

Absolutely. Why is Odo still on a one year deal? Coul;d it be cuz this org doesn't want to pay him 20-22 mil per season for the next 4 years which is looking like what the market is set at? I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Odorizzi traded by July 31st. I actually am expecting it.

[Twodogs]

People run around and complain that gas is too expensive, however, if you decide not to buy any then you're not going to drive anywhere either. So right now market value is what it is. The Twins either need to deal with it or they won't be able to drive to the party.

[jorgenswest]

On Keuchel holding off the Yankees for five innings in the playoffs...

 

Maybe but he will have to be better than last year. He started two playoff games and didn’t make it through 5 in either. No DH. No Yankee line up to get through.

 

I have serious doubts that he will be a number 3 beyond this year and fear that the salary is enough that he would continue to get starts long after he declined below league average level.