Astros Being Investigated for Using Tech to Steal Pitching Signs

[gman]

Everybody wears a tech watch these days. Relay the pitch selection to the batter via speaker in the watch. Oh wait a moment, that's not to subtle.

[Vanimal46]

The fact that the Astros are doing an internal investigation is laughable... Hopefully Manfred drops a hammer on them with significant fines, loss of draft picks and IFA pool money.

[jkcarew]

The fact that there is, in fact, no way to enforce sign-stealing (of the non-electronic variety) is precisely why the teams are responsible to change/improve/conceal methods of delivering signs.

 

Also, I think stealing pitch signs is over-rated. For instance, there's current internet chatter about 'forgiving' Darvish for his performance in the 2017 WS coming off this news. Except, Darvish got hammered in game 7...at Dodger stadium. Even when signs are being stolen, there's seldom opportunity where the batter can be 100% sure the signs haven't been changed since the last mound visit or last half-inning. And you still don't know the location. Meanwhile, great hitters can guess speed and location with a pretty high degree of accuracy, without stealing signs. Many have even said they don't want the information, feeling it will just screw them up when, inevitably sooner or later, it will be wrong.

 

Having said that, using center-field cameras should be enforceable, and should not go unpunished, IMO.

 

Note: it's my understanding that this can't be accomplish via center-field broadcast images due to the several second time-delay for broadcasts. Have to deploy a closed-circuit system.

[Hrbowski]

 

  On 11/14/2019 at 6:37 PM, Vanimal46 said:

The fact that the Astros are doing an internal investigation is laughable... Hopefully Manfred drops a hammer on them with significant fines, loss of draft picks and IFA pool money.

The 29 other teams are doing it too. If they are going to punish one team, they need to punish them all.

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 11/14/2019 at 8:18 PM, Hrbowski said:

The 29 other teams are doing it too. If they are going to punish one team, they need to punish them all.

 

We don't know at all that is true. Estimates I've read put it at 5-7 more teams using technology.....If it is a rule, it should be enforced. Otherwise, get rid of the rule.

[nicksaviking]

  On 11/14/2019 at 8:18 PM, Hrbowski said:

The 29 other teams are doing it too. If they are going to punish one team, they need to punish them all.

Seems odd that Danny Farquhar would complain about it if his team was doing it too.

[ashbury]

  On 11/13/2019 at 3:47 AM, Blake said:

 

Not sure what provoked this memory, but, here's a bad yet hilarious video.

[Hrbowski]

I also find it humorous that the Astros were a better offensive team on the road in 2017...

[Vanimal46]

  On 11/15/2019 at 6:31 PM, Hrbowski said:

I also find it humorous that the Astros were a better offensive team on the road in 2017...

You don't think they had a system on the road?

 

https://twitter.com/trevorplouffe/status/1195064380620066817?s=19

[Hrbowski]

 

  On 11/15/2019 at 7:07 PM, Vanimal46 said:

You don't think they had a system on the road?

https://twitter.com/trevorplouffe/status/1195064380620066817?s=19

Wouldn't be possible to operate their own camera on the road like they could at home. TV broadcasts are delayed several seconds from real time, so they couldn't just use any old TV stream. Few stadiums allow seating in the batters eye, so it would typically be impossible to have a scout relaying signs from the stands. So yeah, I doubt they had a system on the road other than the more orthodox systems of sign stealing such as from the first base coach's box.

[Nine of twelve]

I don't remember which season or by whom, but Joe Mauer was accused of stealing signs at one point when he was a base runner at second base. It was noticed that he was grabbing at the ear hole of his helmet before some of the pitches.

I guess I fall into the camp that as long as every team plays under the same conditions sign stealing is part of the game. By same conditions I mean that no electronic or mechanical assistance of any kind may be used.

But really, if teams don't want their signs to be intercepted they simply have to improve the encrypting of their signs. It's really not that hard to do. For example, you could use different indicators or sequences depending on what the batter's uniform number is, or what the on-deck batter's uniform number is. And this can change from game to game or inning to inning or batter to batter. Even Bruce Pearson would be able to do it.

[ashbury]

 

  On 11/17/2019 at 3:54 AM, Nine of twelve said:

I don't remember which season or by whom, but Joe Mauer was accused of stealing signs at one point when he was a base runner at second base. It was noticed that he was grabbing at the ear hole of his helmet before some of the pitches.

I guess I fall into the camp that as long as every team plays under the same conditions sign stealing is part of the game. By same conditions I mean that no electronic or mechanical assistance of any kind may be used.

But really, if teams don't want their signs to be intercepted they simply have to improve the encrypting of their signs. It's really not that hard to do. For example, you could use different indicators or sequences depending on what the batter's uniform number is, or what the on-deck batter's uniform number is. And this can change from game to game or inning to inning or batter to batter. Even Bruce Pearson would be able to do it.

The better the encryption, the better the chance of pitcher or catcher forgetting the system. A crossed-up catcher can be an injurious situation, primarily to the catcher himself but also the umpire.

[Nine of twelve]

 

  On 11/17/2019 at 4:10 AM, ashbury said:

The better the encryption, the better the chance of pitcher or catcher forgetting the system. A crossed-up catcher can be an injurious situation, primarily to the catcher himself but also the umpire.

Of course. But it would be easy to come up with a system that is easy for one team to remember but hard for another team to figure out.

 

[The Wise One]

 

  On 11/13/2019 at 12:50 AM, Mike Sixel said:

Of course, pitch framing is just a fancy word for sets a good target and other things....and is about getting a strike called correctly more than getting a ball called a strike.....they aren't the same thing as stealing signs at all. It's part of the actual play, for example, among other differences.

Pitch framing was called  stealing strikes by Maddon when he was with the Rays when he was  talking about Molina saving the team 50 runs.

also https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/catcher_framing

[Vanimal46]

 

DURING the 2017 playoffs an executive sent an email(!!) asking scouts to help steal signs.

[Hrbowski]

 

  On 11/17/2019 at 4:33 PM, Vanimal46 said:

DURING the 2017 playoffs an executive sent an email(!!) asking scouts to help steal signs.

I know pro scouts from nearly every team. It is an expected part of the job.

[Vanimal46]

  On 11/17/2019 at 5:07 PM, Hrbowski said:

I know pro scouts from nearly every team. It is an expected part of the job.

They're all expected to set up cameras for the specific reason of stealing signs?

[darin617]

If I was going to cheat why not have some sort of electronic device on the batter. An electric impulse or something to tip the pitch. One for fastball, two for curveball, etc.

[ashbury]

  On 11/17/2019 at 5:30 PM, darin617 said:

If I was going to cheat why not have some sort of electronic device on the batter. An electric impulse or something to tip the pitch. One for fastball, two for curveball, etc.

I don't know about for stealing signs, but I can think of a good use of this technology for any batter who misses the coach's "take" sign more than once. You might have to turn its dial to '11,' though.

[Nine of twelve]

 

  On 11/17/2019 at 5:43 PM, ashbury said:

I don't know about for stealing signs, but I can think of a good use of this technology for any batter who misses the coach's "take" sign more than once. You might have to turn its dial to '11,' though.

[Hrbowski]

 

  On 11/17/2019 at 5:20 PM, Vanimal46 said:

They're all expected to set up cameras for the specific reason of stealing signs?

Yep. The Astros were stealing signs from the dugout. Everybody does that when pro scouting.

[Vanimal46]

 

If every pro scout steals signs, I'm curious why the Astros set up and broke down this particular TV monitor before and after games?

[dex8425]

Stealing signs off the pitching coach, or catcher, or pitcher, or 3rd base coach, or 1st base coach, with your eyes and brain, as a player or coach is totally legal and has been part of the game since baseball was invented. Stealing signs with technology and employees specifically tasked for stealing signs is cheating and wrong. Especially if the cameras or binoculars are in centerfield. It absolutely gives an unfair advantage to be able to focus on the catcher's signs the entire game. 

[nicksaviking]

 

  On 11/17/2019 at 5:07 PM, Hrbowski said:

I know pro scouts from nearly every team. It is an expected part of the job.

 

Not according to the article. Sounds like many of them were mortified that the team was asking them to do this.

[Squirrel]

 

  On 11/18/2019 at 6:54 PM, dex8425 said:

Stealing signs off the pitching coach, or catcher, or pitcher, or 3rd base coach, or 1st base coach, with your eyes and brain, as a player or coach is totally legal and has been part of the game since baseball was invented. Stealing signs with technology and employees specifically tasked for stealing signs is cheating and wrong. Especially if the cameras or binoculars are in centerfield. It absolutely gives an unfair advantage to be able to focus on the catcher's signs the entire game. 

This is how I see it. Someone mentioned earlier Mauer signaling from 2nd base ... totally legit for players to see things with their eyes and relay the information. But when it is orchestrated to the level the Astros did this, with technology? No, wrong. And I hope they are slapped hard, not lightly, so discourage other teams from doing this, too.

 

And maybe they can find a better way to hide or camouflage the signage between catcher and pitcher. I'm sure teams will look into ways to do this.

[Vanimal46]

[Mike Sixel]

Once fans think teams cheat, a sport loses fans. Vegas isn't happy about it either.....

[h2oface]

 

  On 11/18/2019 at 7:56 PM, Mike Sixel said:

Once fans think teams cheat, a sport loses fans. Vegas isn't happy about it either.....

 

I guess it depends on what type of cheating, as many still want Pineda resigned, and many don't seem to care anymore about the PED cheating by Polanco and Cruz, and again, love pitch framing. Not the same thing. I know, I know...... but the fans are still loving the game.  

 

And my sympathies to Vegas.... who never ever stack the deck.

 

Personally, I feel stealing signs is stealing signs. Period. It is up to the players to figure out a way that they can't be figured out, or even fool the other team with them, and have them constantly changing. Once they put it out there, it is in the public domain, and the signs are fair game, however they get communicated and used by whoever wants to use them. 

[dex8425]

 

  On 11/19/2019 at 12:06 PM, h2oface said:

 

Personally, I feel stealing signs is stealing signs. Period. It is up to the players to figure out a way that they can't be figured out, or even fool the other team with them, and have them constantly changing. Once they put it out there, it is in the public domain, and the signs are fair game, however they get communicated and used by whoever wants to use them. 

 

The problem with this is if teams expect every opposing team to have a camera or fan with a scope in CF, the games will be 6 hours long.  

[dex8425]

 

  On 11/18/2019 at 7:21 PM, SQUIRREL said:

 

 

And maybe they can find a better way to hide or camouflage the signage between catcher and pitcher. I'm sure teams will look into ways to do this.

 

The solution is to use the system you use with runner on 2nd. Multiple sets of signs. Maybe you're doing first sign, second sign, third sign or last sign. The problem with doing this the whole game is the games take forever. If the pitcher shakes, the catcher has to do the sequence all over again. Then usually the batter steps out. Repeat several times an inning and you've got lots of frustrated pitchers and five hour games. Not good for anyone. 

 

And if there's a camera in CF, it takes significantly less time to figure out the "multiple sets of signs" system. And then you'd have to change the signs over and over. A runner on 2nd has lots to worry about (not getting picked off, what his 3rd base coach sign is, where the fielders are, when to run, etc.) and maybe one or two batters at most, plus he has to be clear on how he's relaying signs to the batter. 

 

With the aid of a simple app and a camera, you can nail the system within one batter. 

 

I really like what Matt Antonelli has to say about this.