Josh Hamilton Arrested for Injuring his Daughter

[Squirrel]

 

MY point is you essentially agree with what I said the only problem is you don't like how I said it.

 

What he did was horrible.....and what?

Do you have a problem with him going to jail if he's found guilty of what was said in the article?  Please answer this directly.

You missed my point. Nor answered my question, which I asked first.

 

You said: This "he's an addict" doesn't absolve him of anything in books.

I asked: Who here said it absolved him?

 

Please, answer that, because you seem to equate any of us feeling sorry for the guy and hope that he gets help is absolving him. It's not. It's not the same at all. I agree with what Brock said:

 

 

But to be clear, while I empathize with what could have driven Hamilton to this fit of rage, I have little sympathy for the results of his actions, and I hope the judge is able to steer him toward a path of recovery, which may or may not be tied into punishment.

 

 

[biggentleben]

 

Who here said that it absolved him? For me personally, yes, his actions were awful and he should be held accountable. But at the same time, I do feel badly for him and hope he gets help. I think those two thoughts can coexist. I’m not absolving him at all but I do still hope he can pull it together and get the help he needs for the sake of those around him. If he can’t, then he will pay the price.

 

Exactly the point I've been attempting to make. Rhetoric early in this post was interpreted to give up on Josh and throw him in jail as he's a lost cause. My responses have been in response to that, that he has dual diagnosis that he deals with daily, and thousands of people fall similarly every single day.

[biggentleben]

 

Exactly.  Prisons are filled with people who had addictions and mental illness because they because they commited crimes against innocent people.

 

Prisons are filled with people like Josh for two reasons - 1) it makes money for the prisons to have as many people in them as possible, and those prisons often kick back a LOT of money to the government, meaning there's very little incentive to end that relationship; and 2) the ability to handle "difficult" mental illness/addiction/disability in our society is nearly nil. Polls, even in the most socially liberal areas of the country, strongly favor expansion of state hospitals over expansion of community-based programs, both of which are primarily taxpayer-funded, so the funding model is really not that different, but the actual recovery rates are significantly different.

[Mr. Brooks]

Okay, I'll say it: I come from a violent household with addiction tendencies and have fought my entire life to not be that person.

 

It works the vast majority of the time but I have an explosive temper. I've punched walls, screamed, and taken more than a few swings at people for no truly legitimate reason.

 

Oddly enough, I went into therapy years ago and as I worked through what put me in that state in the first place (the environment in which I was raised), my violent tendencies subsided.

 

But they subsided, they didn't just go away. Only as I've fostered children have I truly seen what environment does to the formative years of a child and been able to apply that knowledge to my own behavior, which I had previously blamed entirely on myself and not the environment in which I was raised. Only once I worked through the causes was I able to find an actual solution, as currently feeble as it may be.

 

This isn't reefer madness bull****, this is looking at the entire picture and treating the person, not trying to pigeonhole them into a category and say "well, you should be this because that happened". We're incredibly complex creatures and just throwing the book at someone because they did a thing rarely solves the problem, other than keeping them away from society. If we wish to find actual growth, more nuanced approaches must be administered.

 

Addiction is rarely an isolated problem, particularly in men. It's usually rooted in a deeper, underlying problem (which often results in violence as an output factor) and should be treated as such.

Most of that is pretty much in line with what I said.

I agree he needs help, and I agree throwing the book at people is rarely the right answer.

 

He needs help for his anger issues. He might ALSO need help for addiction, but that's a separate issue.

I said the anger and addiction issues are probably both caused by the same underlying issues. But the anger isn't caused by the addiction. Suggesting it is is dangerous. It IS straight out of Reefer Madness. It makes it easy to get society to go along with harsh drug sentencing, if you convince them that addiction causes people to attack their own daughters.

I'm sorry but this is just wrong, and millions of non violent drug addicts are locked up because of this view.

[Craig Arko]

In general where possible, it seems to me, carrot >> stick.

 

Sometimes the stick may be all that's left, but that counts as a loss in my book.

[ewen21]

 

Prisons are filled with people like Josh for two reasons - 1) it makes money for the prisons to have as many people in them as possible, and those prisons often kick back a LOT of money to the government, meaning there's very little incentive to end that relationship; and 2) the ability to handle "difficult" mental illness/addiction/disability in our society is nearly nil. Polls, even in the most socially liberal areas of the country, strongly favor expansion of state hospitals over expansion of community-based programs, both of which are primarily taxpayer-funded, so the funding model is really not that different, but the actual recovery rates are significantly different.

How about #3?

 

There are lots of violent people doing terrible things

[ewen21]

 

You missed my point. Nor answered my question, which I asked first.

 

You said: This "he's an addict" doesn't absolve him of anything in books.

I asked: Who here said it absolved him?

 

Please, answer that, because you seem to equate any of us feeling sorry for the guy and hope that he gets help is absolving him. It's not. It's not the same at all. I agree with what Brock said:

 

I got your point.  You feel badly for him because of the drug problem.  Sorry, not me.  I can't and I won't.

If you beat up children then I am done with you until some serious consequences are dished out. Must EVERYONE feel the way you do or can we actually have a discussion with different views?

 

TO answer your question I felt that Ben absolved him in his first post.  

 

As far as him "getting the help he needs" how about some historical context?  He had an addiction purported to be so bad that he needed a minder to follow him around virtually 24/7 when he was playing baseball.  This is a guy who lost it all found a measure of redemption and still continues to F-up in spite of all the support and help he has been given.  This guy has been given so much help over the years, but that was for ADDICTION.  Why are we talking about his addictions?  That doesn't enter into this for me all.  I am concerned about his children and hope THEY get the help they need.  WHy in the heck is this about him getting help and not the child?

 

I stand by what I said early on.  If he is proven to be guilty of this then throw him in freaking jail a few months. Do you actually have trouble with that?  

 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I got your point. You feel badly for him because of the drug problem. Sorry, not me. I can't and I won't.

If you beat up children then I am done with you until some serious consequences are dished out. Must EVERYONE feel the way you do or can we actually have a discussion with different views?

 

TO answer your question I felt that Ben absolved him in his first post.

 

As far as him "getting the help he needs" how about some historical context? He had an addiction purported to be so bad that he needed a minder to follow him around virtually 24/7 when he was playing baseball. This is a guy who lost it all found a measure of redemption and still continues to F-up in spite of all the support and help he has been given. This guy has been given so much help over the years, but that was for ADDICTION. Why are we talking about his addictions? That doesn't enter into this for me all. I am concerned about his children and hope THEY get the help they need. WHy in the heck is this about him getting help and not the child?

 

I stand by what I said early on. If he is proven to be guilty of this then throw him in freaking jail a few months. Do you actually have trouble with that?

if he has the multiple issues as have been cited, he may not be competent to stand trial. It might be a different institution than prison would be most suitable to provide him psychiatric care, proper medical dosing, and keep the rest of the population safe from him.

 

If Hamilton did injure his child, he does deserve some kind of separation from the general population.

 

I’m not sure that’s prison.

[ewen21]

 

if he has the multiple issues as have been cited, he may not be competent to stand trial. It might be a different institution than prison would be most suitable to provide him psychiatric care, proper medical dosing, and keep the rest of the population safe from him.

If Hamilton did injure his child, he does deserve some kind of separation from the general population.

I’m not sure that’s prison.

How about he's just not a good guy and a master manipulator?  Is that entirely impossible or is that in the mix for this discussion?   Seems to me that concept is tough for a lot of people to accept and I don't know why that is.  Seems to me a lot assumptions are being made.  I am probably guilty of it myself, but those of you who continue to cite mental illness are basing it on what exactly?  Do you think substance abuse = mental illness?  I don't.  There is no consensus anywhere on either of side of that issue. Moreover, is it possible you and the others thanking you are making assumptions and judgments or does it only apply to those who don't agree with you in topics such as this.

Food for thought

 

What can probably agree upon is this guy has had an endless amount of chances and lots of help already.  People who aren't baseball stars don't often get the chances and adulation he has received.  He has been given help over and over again.  It is up to him to listen and learn and he is still behaving like an overgrown child.  That isn't too controversial, right?

 

Additionally, this is not Josh Hamilton was found in the gutter somewhere.  This is Josh Hamilton physically assaulted his 14 year old daughter.  According to the report he threw things at her, threw her down, balled up his fists and punched her multiple times and then screamed:

"I hope you go in front of the f*cking judge and tell him what a terrible dad I am so I don't have to see you anymore and you don't ever have to come to my house again."

That is a brazen act from a guy who has been handed too many chances and feels like he is above the fray.

 

You want to call it mental illness.  OK, fine.

But his actions--if found to be true in a court of law--should warrant jail time, in my opinion.

 

I don't give a rip about him right now. I care more about his wife and daughters.

I know a thing or two about mental illness because I worked in two different residential treatment facilites in upstate NY with some pretty violent teens,  Being a NYS certified teacher for the last 23 years I have to idenitfy child abuse when I see it.  i am what is called a mandated reporter.

 

I am not being cavalier when I say what I say on this topic

 

 

 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

How about he's just not a good guy and a master manipulator? Is that entirely impossible or is that in the mix for this discussion? Seems to me that concept is tough for a lot of people to accept and I don't know why that is. Seems to me a lot assumptions are being made. I am probably guilty of it myself, but those of you who continue to cite mental illness are basing it on what exactly? Do you think substance abuse = mental illness? I don't. There is no consensus anywhere on either of side of that issue. Moreover, is it possible you and the others thanking you are making assumptions and judgments or does it only apply to those who don't agree with you in topics such as this.

Food for thought

 

What can probably agree upon is this guy has had an endless amount of chances and lots of help already. People who aren't baseball stars don't often get the chances and adulation he has received. He has been given help over and over again. It is up to him to listen and learn and he is still behaving like an overgrown child. That isn't too controversial, right?

 

Additionally, this is not Josh Hamilton was found in the gutter somewhere. This is Josh Hamilton physically assaulted his 14 year old daughter. According to the report he threw things at her, threw her down, balled up his fists and punched her multiple times and then screamed:

"I hope you go in front of the f*cking judge and tell him what a terrible dad I am so I don't have to see you anymore and you don't ever have to come to my house again."

That is a brazen act from a guy who has been handed too many chances and feels like he is above the fray.

 

You want to call it mental illness. OK, fine.

But his actions--if found to be true in a court of law--should warrant jail time, in my opinion.

 

I don't give a rip about him right now. I care more about his wife and daughters.

I know a thing or two about mental illness because I worked in two different residential treatment facilites in upstate NY with some pretty violent teens, Being a NYS certified teacher for the last 23 years I have to idenitfy child abuse when I see it. i am what is called a mandated reporter.

 

I am not being cavalier when I say what I say on this topic

I agree with your stance that children need to be protected by society from individuals who would mean to do them harm above all else. I think that needs to be emphasized. His family has suffered because of his actions.

 

The means to protection and the system in which our society makes the determination is up for debate.

 

While Hamilton as an individual has been given some grace, I’m not sure if he or the many people like him have been given the right kind of treatment to make long lasting impact on society.

 

The United States has the highest prison population in the world 2.1 million. More than China’s 1.5 million and China has 4x the population. http://worldpopulationreview.com/countries/incarceration-rates-by-country/

 

Societally we go to this well far too often, so I cringe when individuals call to “throw him in jail, that’ll teach him”

 

Teach him what exactly? How does putting an individual in jail prevent relapse and him seeking his family out after he gets out? What tools and assistance does he get in jail?

 

Or do we keep him in prison for the rest of his life? To what end? At almost $70k/year/inmate we spend the most on a per inmate basis too, so our taxes go up and up and up. It costs us more than the mean us household income BTW...

 

And people like Josh Hamilton? 83% of inmates reoffend within 9 years. https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=6266

 

Whether or not Hamilton is “nice” or “manipulative” isn’t relevant. Millions of manipulative jerk-heads walk the earth. That’s not a crime.

[ewen21]

YOu are advocating pretty hard for a guy who has class three felony charges leveled against him for child abuse.  All of you have alluded to him "getting the right kind of treatment"

 

What exactly is that?  Make me understand what you mean with that.  Try to articulate it for me and maybe it will make sense.

 

As far as, "what's jail going to teach him"?  Fear is one heck of a motivator.  This guy has had plenty of treatment, therapy and support over the years.  What has he learned from that?  At what point does he exhaust that and deal with real consequences.

 

This isn't about the guy being an addict.  If he were busted for 5 grams of coke I guarantee you I would feel differently.  This could be only the tip of the iceberg for all we know.  These things don't tend to be isolated events.  If what he did is true then three months in an orange jumpsuit in general population at a state facility is what I would like to see.  Let him feel afraid and vulnerable for what he did.  

 

He violently assaulted a 14 year old girl.  We are supposed to presume innocence, but if he isn't then I won't be advocating for his freedom.  You guys can do that.  I would only hope you would show tolerance in accepting an opinion like mine.  I didn't say lock him up and throw away the key.  I am saying something on par with what the law states for this class of a crime.