Josh Hamilton Arrested for Injuring his Daughter

[Vanimal46]

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2019/10/30/ex-texas-rangers-outfielder-josh-hamilton-charged-with-injury-to-a-child/

 

Yikes. Hope he gets the help he clearly needs.

[ewen21]

 

https://www.dallasnews.com/news/crime/2019/10/30/ex-texas-rangers-outfielder-josh-hamilton-charged-with-injury-to-a-child/

Yikes. Hope he gets the help he clearly needs.

 

 

This is a guy who has been given multiple chances, but he proves time and time again that he is a horrible person.  I would be in favor him doing a few months in jail

[biggentleben]

 

This is a guy who has been given multiple chances, but he proves time and time again that he is a horrible person.  I would be in favor him doing a few months in jail an addict.

 

FTFY.

[Mr. Brooks]

FTFY.

What does being an addict have to do with this alleged incident?

That's an insult to millions of non violent addicts everywhere, and just feeds into the failed and false narrative that addicts are violent and need to be locked up.

[biggentleben]

 

What does being an addict have to do with this alleged incident?
That's an insult to millions of non violent addicts everywhere, and just feeds into the failed and false narrative that addicts are violent and need to be locked up.

 

The comment about "proving time and again that he's a horrible person". Oddly, when sober, he's not been that person. His addiction brings out things in him that are not good at all. I never ONCE said that all addicts are violent or need to be locked up. My point here is the exact opposite. A person in the throws of their addiction is not the same person they are sober, and assuming things about them on the whole due to how they respond/behave in their addiction is what is not okay.

[Mr. Brooks]

The comment about "proving time and again that he's a horrible person". Oddly, when sober, he's not been that person. His addiction brings out things in him that are not good at all. I never ONCE said that all addicts are violent or need to be locked up. My point here is the exact opposite. A person in the throws of their addiction is not the same person they are sober, and assuming things about them on the whole due to how they respond/behave in their addiction is what is not okay.

I don't agree. This is an anger and power issue that, IMO, has zero relation to any addiction issues.

 

Claiming that drugs or alcohol can turn an otherwise stable person into a violent monster that can't control their urges is "Reefer Madness" level scare tactics that I'd hoped had been debunked by now.

 

It's possible that the same underlying, untreated issues that cause his anger ALSO contribute to his addictive behavior, but it's not caused by his addiction.

 

Treating a persons addiction alone won't do anything to treat their anger issues, that's something that has to be treated separately.

 

No amount of drugs or alcohol is going to make a person do something they aren't capable of doing sober. That's not how impairment works.

[KirbyDome89]

 

No amount of drugs or alcohol is going to make a person do something they aren't capable of doing sober. That's not how impairment works.

So much this. 

 

The "I wasn't myself," or "He wasn't in his right state of mind," argument is nothing more than a failure to accept or allocate responsibility for actions. 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Mod note: this is a sensitive subject. Please take care in commenting. Josh Hamilton has a lot of history, but characterizing him one way or another, or broad generalizations about groups of people can escalate quickly.

 

Many people including members of Twins Daily struggle with addiction, we should be sensitive to them and to the Hamilton family.

 

I’ll continue to monitor, and may lock this thread

[biggentleben]

 

I don't agree. This is an anger and power issue that, IMO, has zero relation to any addiction issues.

Claiming that drugs or alcohol can turn an otherwise stable person into a violent monster that can't control their urges is "Reefer Madness" level scare tactics that I'd hoped had been debunked by now.

It's possible that the same underlying, untreated issues that cause his anger ALSO contribute to his addictive behavior, but it's not caused by his addiction.

Treating a persons addiction alone won't do anything to treat their anger issues, that's something that has to be treated separately.

No amount of drugs or alcohol is going to make a person do something they aren't capable of doing sober. That's not how impairment works.

 

Once again, I'm not putting together an over-arching characterization of addiction. I spent nearly a decade working with dual diagnosis mental health and substance-addicted persons. Each person is an individual, and their response to addiction is different. I've had the opportunity to converse with a number of people who worked with Josh when he was in Texas. My comment about his persona with and without substances comes from that perspective. Josh has been diagnosed dual diagnosis as well, so it very well could be substances produce an imbalance with his mental health, which can often happen with dual diagnosis. I don't know his specific case, but based on significant experience and training with dual diagnosis addiction, it is quite feasible for someone with dual diagnosis to experience chemical imbalances when substances are introduced into the system, changing their "typical" behavior.

[biggentleben]

 

So much this. 

 

The "I wasn't myself," or "He wasn't in his right state of mind," argument is nothing more than a failure to accept or allocate responsibility for actions. 

 

No, not at all. With dual diagnosis, you have more than the substance involved in a LOT of cases. Significant research has been done that would counter exactly that comment.

[KirbyDome89]

 

No, not at all. With dual diagnosis, you have more than the substance involved in a LOT of cases. Significant research has been done that would counter exactly that comment.

The number of diagnoses doesn't change the fact that he is ultimately responsible for his own actions. The "real," Josh might be a friendly and outgoing guy, but the "real," Josh also allegedly beat his teenage daughter with a closed fist. Failure to acknowledge that diminishes his responsibility in the matter.  

[biggentleben]

 

The number of diagnoses doesn't change the fact that he is ultimately responsible for his own actions. The "real," Josh might be a friendly and outgoing guy, but the "real," Josh also allegedly beat his teenage daughter with a closed fist. Failure to acknowledge that diminishes his responsibility in the matter.  

 

If only life were that convenient for those with mental illness...

[ewen21]

Mod note: this is a sensitive subject. Please take care in commenting. Josh Hamilton has a lot of history, but characterizing him one way or another, or broad generalizations about groups of people can escalate quickly.

 

Many people including members of Twins Daily struggle with addiction, we should be sensitive to them and to the Hamilton family.

 

I’ll continue to monitor, and may lock this thread

I get that, but at the end of the day people with addictions and mental illness should be held to the same standard as everyone else. I don’t think it’s right to excuse the action by saying he’s an addict.

 

He needs help. He also needs to be held accountable for what he did. Not sure what is so wrong, insensitive or controversial that is. I think more of the victim in this case: his daughter. I already spent my sympathy for this guy and was behind him when he came back. I was excited for him that first stint back with the Reds, but this is ugly and dangerous

 

It feels like what you are saying above is the opinion I expressed isn’t acceptable by Twins Daily standards. I don't understand why, quite frankly

[ewen21]

His record is similar to that of Jeff Dubay and I don't recall him garnering much sympathy.  As soon as other people are victims of violence the buck stops there.  This is a guy who was given unconditional support as a player and the Rangers bent over backwards for him in ways not commonly seen.  Don't lose site of that fact

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I get that, but at the end of the day people with addictions and mental illness should be held to the same standard as everyone else. I don’t think it’s right to excuse the action by saying he’s an addict.

 

He needs help. He also needs to be held accountable for what he did. Not sure what is so wrong, insensitive or controversial that is. I think more of the victim in this case: his daughter. I already spent my sympathy for this guy and was behind him when he came back. I was excited for him that first stint back with the Reds, but this is ugly and dangerous

 

It feels like what you are saying above is the opinion I expressed isn’t acceptable by Twins Daily standards. I don't understand why, quite frankly

holding people accountable for their actions is very different from making judgements about them as human beings.

 

The comment policy states very specifically

“Respect for others is expected in everything we write, and personal attacks are not allowed.”

 

My post was to remind the board not you specifically that we should be empathetic of our neighbors. That we don’t know everything about our community members, but we are just that.

 

We are a community, composed of Twins fans, complete with all of our own biases, points of view and imperfections.

 

Hamilton wasn’t my concern in that post, but our community and how we react naturally when we discuss these things.

[ewen21]

Empathy for Hamilton in this case? I’m sorry, but I empathize with the daughter and the wife. The first post said, “I hope he gets the help he needs”

 

What sort of help might he be needing at this stage? He was surrounded with people helping him for a number of years when he was playing and spoke openly about his faith. Did he not find Jesus? No doubt he went to meetings and has been in and out of drug and alcohol centers. He’s been getting help and chances for almost 20 years. At what point does this change? Maybe when he assaults his daughter with a closed fist? Knowing how erratic this guy gets is it so surprising?

 

And as some have noted already, every bad thing an addict or alcoholic does is not attributable to their disease. If you think that then you are making your own judgement. That’s ok with me, but I don’t need to agree with it.....unless you think I’m in violation of the policies here. I leave that up to you, but I’m done here with this one.

 

This isn’t about a baseball player in need of help. It’s beyond that

 

This is CHILD ABUSE above all else. Let the courts deal with it, but I don’t doubt that he did what he’s charged with here. If he is exonerated somehow then I will say I’m wrong

[IndianaTwin]

 

Empathy for Hamilton in this case? I’m sorry, but I empathize with the daughter and the wife. The first post said, “I hope he gets the help he needs”...

 

 

What I take away from Sconnie's comment and the insights from BigGentleBen is that empathy doesn't have to be an either/or situation.

 

Empathy for others isn't a zero-sum game. In other words, it's possible to have empathy for both the daughter and wife AND for Hamilton, but for different reasons. My son has dual diagnoses (not involving addictions, at least to our knowledge). He has made choices that have had negative effects on others (not violence), and I will empathize with those people who have been negatively impacted. But to my dying days, I will also empathize with my son, even while not condoning those actions, while trying to help him find ways to reduce/eliminate his negative behaviors, and while attempting to hold him appropriately accountable.

 

  

 

 

[IndianaTwin]

 

holding people accountable for their actions is very different from making judgements about them as human beings.

The comment policy states very specifically
“Respect for others is expected in everything we write, and personal attacks are not allowed.”

My post was to remind the board not you specifically that we should be empathetic of our neighbors. That we don’t know everything about our community members, but we are just that.

We are a community, composed of Twins fans, complete with all of our own biases, points of view and imperfections.

Hamilton wasn’t my concern in that post, but our community and how we react naturally when we discuss these things.

 

 

This is not a Josh Hamilton or Josh Hamilton-post comment, but a general one to Sconnie and all the other moderators:

 

Thank you. To have moderators make statements like "we should be empathetic of our neighbors" and "we are a community" speaks volumes about this site, and it makes me grateful to be part of such a group. That spirit comes through in all the work you do.

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

 

[biggentleben]

 

What I take away from Sconnie's comment and the insights from BigGentleBen is that empathy doesn't have to be an either/or situation.

 

Empathy for others isn't a zero-sum game. In other words, it's possible to have empathy for both the daughter and wife AND for Hamilton, but for different reasons. My son has dual diagnoses (not involving addictions, at least to our knowledge). He has made choices that have had negative effects on others (not violence), and I will empathize with those people who have been negatively impacted. But to my dying days, I will also empathize with my son, even while not condoning those actions, while trying to help him find ways to reduce/eliminate his negative behaviors, and while attempting to hold him appropriately accountable.

 

You expressed my intent exactly. We can be supportive of the victim of someone's actions while in the throws of their addiction (or when not properly addressing other mental health concerns) while also having empathy and concern that the best be done individually for the person. I worked in a mental health delivery model that worked with those with extreme SPMI that were one step away from losing the ability to live independently. Those persons were seen often 3-5 times daily to assist with all things to do with their daily living activities. Many remain at that level of assistance for decades and never move to a less-intensive level of staff intervention due to the expedience of mania onset or psychiatric downslope when a person's chemical balance is out of sync.

 

I've lived both sides of the issue, working with someone who was the kindest, most gentle person you could ever meet until his meds were off, but then he was willing to physically challenge me, a 6'3" former Gopher offensive lineman, leaving many incredibly frightened and at times leaving holes in walls or destruction on others' vehicles in his wake. He felt sincere remorse when no longer in the moment of a psychiatric "break" (I hate that word, but it's what is best understood for descriptive purposes) and would do all he could to repay financially any damage he'd done and apologize sincerely for his behaviors. Still, I'd hear often in public from those who didn't realize I worked with him that he should be locked up and the key thrown away.

 

To address Hamilton, he has been surrounded in many cases with significant support, though what is reported as significant support and truly significant support for a person with dual diagnosis are two very different things. Regardless, what has been provided has obviously not been the right mix yet for Josh. Sadly, in the world of addiction, and especially in dual diagnosis, there is no blanket treatment, and each person will react individually, requiring a different mix of talk therapy, medication, social therapy (i.e. AA), exercise, diet, and so many other factors that play into finally finding what works...and even then, that could work for a season in life, not forever.

 

One can support Josh not having contact with his daughter, think the actions are repulsive, and hope that his children and former spouse are getting the help they need while also at the same time avoiding quick assumptions that this is simply Josh's persona and not a sign of the need for a change in his present management system for his dual diagnosis.

[ewen21]

I am now reading stuff where people want to tout their experience and expertise in this matter. I am not someone who needs a lecture on this I worked in an RTF in upstate NY for teenagers with “issues” for three years.

As a NY state certified public school teacher I am what is called a mandated reporter. What that means is if I see signs of physical abuse on a child I am mandated to report that to CPS. This is more about child abuse to me than addiction

 

I’m empathetic toward people with addictions and have had my own challenges with alcohol in the past. I don’t think I owe Josh Hamilton any empathy right now. I gave that to him for years. I thought he was a wonderful story of redemption. Just because I don’t empathize with him in this case doesn’t give anyone the right to assume I don’t empathize with people who have addictions

 

I think crossed the line here and we ought to be more concerned and empathetic toward the child who is a victim.

 

That’s the end of the line for me on this one. I can’t be any clearer about it. I believe in second, third, fourth, etc...chances, but there comes a time where a man has to face consequences. Have sympathy and empathy for Josh if you want. Just don’t tell me I need to because at this point I don’t, and I won’t.

 

....and not for a long time if I ever will again

 

I now bow out on this respectfully

[Squirrel]

I moved this thread as it's not discussing baseball. If you want to continue discussing addiction, mental illness and/or empathy, please feel free ... but please keep respectful of everyone's opinion.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I don't agree. This is an anger and power issue that, IMO, has zero relation to any addiction issues.

Claiming that drugs or alcohol can turn an otherwise stable person into a violent monster that can't control their urges is "Reefer Madness" level scare tactics that I'd hoped had been debunked by now.

It's possible that the same underlying, untreated issues that cause his anger ALSO contribute to his addictive behavior, but it's not caused by his addiction.

Treating a persons addiction alone won't do anything to treat their anger issues, that's something that has to be treated separately.

No amount of drugs or alcohol is going to make a person do something they aren't capable of doing sober. That's not how impairment works.

Okay, I'll say it: I come from a violent household with addiction tendencies and have fought my entire life to not be that person.

 

It works the vast majority of the time but I have an explosive temper. I've punched walls, screamed, and taken more than a few swings at people for no truly legitimate reason.

 

Oddly enough, I went into therapy years ago and as I worked through what put me in that state in the first place (the environment in which I was raised), my violent tendencies subsided. 

 

But they subsided, they didn't just go away. Only as I've fostered children have I truly seen what environment does to the formative years of a child and been able to apply that knowledge to my own behavior, which I had previously blamed entirely on myself and not the environment in which I was raised. Only once I worked through the causes was I able to find an actual solution, as currently feeble as it may be.

 

This isn't reefer madness bull****, this is looking at the entire picture and treating the person, not trying to pigeonhole them into a category and say "well, you should be this because that happened". We're incredibly complex creatures and just throwing the book at someone because they did a thing rarely solves the problem, other than keeping them away from society. If we wish to find actual growth, more nuanced approaches must be administered.

 

Addiction is rarely an isolated problem, particularly in men. It's usually rooted in a deeper, underlying problem (which often results in violence as an output factor) and should be treated as such.

[Brock Beauchamp]

But to be clear, while I empathize with what could have driven Hamilton to this fit of rage, I have little sympathy for the results of his actions, and I hope the judge is able to steer him toward a path of recovery, which may or may not be tied into punishment.

[ewen21]

I’m sure that wasn’t easy, Brock.

 

I, for one, appreciate the candor.

 

Hamilton has received a lot of support being a high profile athlete. Literally thousands (possibly millions) have followed his story. When he came up with Cincinnati I was very excited for him to succeed. When he slipped a few times up I felt badly for him. This, however, crosses into another area. From reading that article it sounds like he really has fallen off after his retirement and that he has a rather nasty side that none of us knew about. If what was described (and it wasn’t just one event) is half true he will get no sympathy from me right now. My concern is with his children and the damage he’s done to them.

 

Apparently this happened just a month or so after the Rangers gave him a spot in their HOF. He was celebrated that day with his family so he’s been getting tons of support and adulation over the years. Probably more than deserves and he turns around and does this?

 

I worked with teens who were violent and had mental illness. The came from the ghettos of NYC and small poor town upstate. It took a whole lot of patience to deal with them and sometimes they would try to get physical. This is why they were in an an RTF and this is why most of them are in prison now. If you’re mentally and violent jail is a natural progression.

 

Sorry, but if that report is proven to be true and more instances come to light during the trial, some jail time is necessary. This is a guy that ho has gotten more help and support for his “issues” than we could ever hope for. It’s probably time to change that. Enough.

[KirbyDome89]

 

If only life were that convenient for those with mental illness...

It isn't a matter of convenience, it's about an adult being held accountable for his actions and not deemphasizing that accountability.  

[ewen21]

 

It isn't a matter of convenience, it's about an adult being held accountable for his actions and not deemphasizing that accountability.  

Exactly.  Prisons are filled with people who had addictions and mental illness because they because they commited crimes against innocent people.

 

This "he's an addict" doesn't absolve him of anything in books.  He has had nothing but help and support for years.  If he cannot get it together after all that (he actually had a minder follow him around during this time with Rangers) then maybe he belongs in a cage for a little while.  Maybe that's the message he needs now.  He has been given enough chances.

 

He can seek out support group of some other kind of help after a few months in jail.

[Squirrel]

Exactly. Prisons are filled with people who had addictions and mental illness because they because they commited crimes against innocent people.

 

This "he's an addict" doesn't absolve him of anything in books. He has had nothing but help and support for years. If he cannot get it together after all that (he actually had a minder follow him around during this time with Rangers) then maybe he belongs in a cage for a little while. Maybe that's the message he needs now. He has been given enough chances.

 

He can seek out support group of some other kind of help after a few months in jail.

Who here said that it absolved him? For me personally, yes, his actions were awful and he should be held accountable. But at the same time, I do feel badly for him and hope he gets help. I think those two thoughts can coexist. I’m not absolving him at all but I do still hope he can pull it together and get the help he needs for the sake of those around him. If he can’t, then he will pay the price.

[ewen21]

his actions were awful and he should be held accountable

 

 

 

 

YOur words, not mine

 

[Squirrel]

his actions were awful and he should be held accountable

 

 

 

 

YOur words, not mine

I’m not sure what this means. Do you have a point you are trying to make?

[ewen21]

 

I’m not sure what this means. Do you have a point you are trying to make?

 

MY point is you essentially agree with what I said the only problem is you don't like how I said it.

 

What he did was horrible.....and what?

Do you have a problem with him going to jail if he's found guilty of what was said in the article?  Please answer this directly.