Front Page: Kris Bryant Decision Could Have Ramifications for Twins and Byron Buxton

[Battle ur tail off]

I'd just love to see the guy give us a full year on the field. If he could play 150 games, the Twins could finally see what they have in him and make a decision to either pay him, or to use him as trade bait. So far, it is pretty hard for anyone to know exactly what you are going to get from the guy. 

 

I still think it would be a mistake to trade him. I just don't think he is worth a ton and the potential he has is much greater than what you might expect to get back in a trade. That said, it is time for the guy to stay on that field and prove he is worth a contract. 

 

[Kelly Vance]

I have stood up for players being unfairly criticized for years now.  I remember standing up for Doze. He carried the team in long stretches and was the only Twin besides Killer to hit 40 HRs. Until this year. But people still criticized him for slow starts. Unfair.

 

I stood up for Joe Mauer when people criticized him unfairly. One poster said he was not "clutch" disregarding the FACT that he had the highest BA in the league with runners in scoring position. One guy said Joe was "not good at baseball."  What rubbish. The guy  is likely to be a hall of famer.

 

I don't know where all the negativity about Buck comes from. The guy tries his best on every play and he gets criticized for sacrificing his body to help his team. He played hurt and his numbers fell off. He gets no credit for going out there injured and playing anyway, for your entertainment. His critics are largely unfair and he deserves better. 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Kelly Vance

[Battle ur tail off]

 

I think you are being unfair. Buck injured his foot and tried to play through the injury. You criticize his low batting average, but you blow through his playing hurt. That is unfair. Completely unfair. When he finally healed up he was hitting again. You mention that like it was nothing. Again, unfair.  In 2019 he showed up stronger and had put on 20 pounds of muscle.  That shows off season dedication. You give him no credit for that. Buck started off the season hitting like an All Star. You simply refuse to give the guy credit. And that is unfair.  

 

So far, to me, he hasn't shown he can play through injuries at all. Super minor ones as well. Sprained thumb keeps him out for 55 days. Groin strain keeps him out for 17 days. Almost an entire season shut down over a fractured toe. 

 

I mean, I understand all of this, but he wants to be Kirby Puckett, then toughen up. Sprained thumb? How about tape it up and get your arse back in there. Fractured toe? Let it heal for 15-20 days and lets go. Groin strain? A week of rest should do it. 

 

Like I said, I really like him and hope he can give the team what he has shown he is capable of. I just don't feel there is any reason he is owed extra money over the service time thing in 2018.

Edited October 29, 2019 by Battle ur tail off

[Kelly Vance]

 

So far, to me, he hasn't shown he can play through injuries at all. Super minor ones as well. Sprained thumb keeps him out for 55 days. Groin strain keeps him out for 17 days. Almost an entire season shut down over a fractured toe. 

 

I mean, I understand all of this, but he wants to be Kirby Puckett, then toughen up. Sprained thumb? How about tape it up and get your arse back in there. Fractured toe? Let it heal for 15-20 days and lets go. Groin strain? A week of rest should do it. 

 

Like I said, I really like him and hope he can give the team what he has shown he is capable of. I just don't feel there is any reason he is owed extra money over the service time thing in 2018.

 I have had a wrist injury. It took a whole year to heal.  I have broken my toe. Cost me a full season of track (I was a sprinter) . Thumbs get hurt, you can't grip a bat.  These are not minor injuries. Compared to a broken leg, they seem like it, but they are not minor.   Its not about pain.  These types of injuries take you out.  The wrist, thumb, and toe don't function, you can't play. 

[cardsfan]

I am not sold on Buxton, in fact I am willing to accept the label of being the least enamored of TD readers, but this is not about the player and in the economics of the game I am sympathetic to Buxton's case against the team. I was so blatant.

If the Twins were in the pennant race in September 2018 they could argue we would have brought him up for his defense, but, considering how bad a year he had up here we thought he should join us in the spring.

[Jham]

You don't know that any of that would have happened. And I don't get what you mean about losing a month on the DL and then a full season. We lost the month when they refused to call him up. As for losing a full season... I don't get that either. You are assuming he would get hurt so badly in the September call up he would lose all of 2019? Really? Nice fiction piece. But its not what happened and you don't know that it would have. What you said is like your boss saying he needs to lay you off because you might have a heart attack at work.

Fiction? I'm stating what happened. He wasn't called up over concern that we were trading a month off Buxton in a lost year where he was bad and hurt for an entire year of arbitration eligibility where he's presumably had an off-season to prepare, more mature, better hitter, and the team needs him.

 

If they call him up cuz he says he's good and the first week he's back he runs to first and his bone cracks and needs screws and his fascia tears, he goes on the MLB DL. He acquires service time for the rest of the season. Because of that month on the MLB DL, he now hits free agency a year earlier. What does he put up for WAR in 1 month of 2018? What does he put up for WAR in his final year of arbitration eligibility? Fragility argument aside, it's an easy decision.

[Don Walcott]

As a fan, I want to see the best players playing in the majors for every team. I feel empathy for older players who might not be able to continue getting a major league pay check because of a younger player taking their position. But the younger player also has a right to that major league pay check, if they are the better player.

 

I keep hearing the argument that ownership is only following the rules that are in place by keeping a player in the minor leagues to increase the number of years of control. If we accept this argument, there is a very slippery slope ahead. If we accept that ownership does not have an obligation to the fans and the players to field the best team available to them, we are allowing the rules to be perverted in ways that damage the integrity of the game.

 

For example: Fernando Tatis, Jr. looks like a future superstar right now. But he missed all of May, most of August and all of September due to injuries. Let's say the Padres can't sign the free agents they need or trade for the players they need to be competitive with LA in 2020. Seems likely. The Padres have a long-term contract with Machado, and are serious about building a team in the future. So what's to stop them in 2020 from saying that they are worried that, by playing in the majors, Tatis will hurt himself and jeopardize his future? Could they bury Tatis in the minors for 2020 to gain an extra year of control that will extend their window of contention? Do the rules really allow ownership to keep any player in the minors for any reason? If not, where do we draw the line?

 

I believe we draw the line at the point where a player in your system clearly deserves a roster spot in the majors. Bryant wins his case on this basis. Buxton wins his case on this basis. In case there's any doubt that Buxton would have been the starting center fielder in September 2018, just look at how the team treated him before his injuries and after. He was the team's starting center fielder both before and after. In fact, as damage control, the team basically announced he was going to be the opening day starting center fielder in 2019 during last off season. In one way, his case is even clearer than Bryant's. Bryant hadn't yet proven himself in the majors when he was held back. Buxton was already a gold glove, platinum glove, MVP vote-getting starter for his team. He had a rough season mostly due to migraines, a broken toe and a sprained wrist. In 2019, he has proven that he should have been starting in September 2018, just as he had earned that spot in 2017. Based on his ability, there is simply no question he should have been starting in center field in September 2018.

 

If you believe the Twins were justified in holding Buxton back due to fear about him injuring himself, then you would have to accept that the Padres could do the same with Tatis in 2020. It's a very slippery slope if you don't draw the line at a player being entitled to a roster spot based on merit. I also think it's unfair to the players and the fans to allow ownership to keep a player down purely for financial reasons.

[gunnarthor]

 

Look at how much service time and MLB salary Buxton has received while on the IL/DL. Look how patient we were allowing him to accumulate service time while struggling with the big club. We could have optioned him this September but didn't.

His injury history almost assuredly plays in. After last year, the team certainly could have activated Buxton then optioned him out of spring training in the traditional manner of holding a player back. If he killed it on September and ST, then keep him up and don't worry about service time. But you're leaving yourself vulnerable for another tweak and more IL service time you can't get back.

He had less than 100 at-bats in the majors that year and was coming off a 5 WAR season. The team made him play hurt early in the year, he didn't have that many at-bats in the minors either (less than 150) but had a .900+ OPS after July. Plus the Twins promoted worse players as injuries decimated our OF (Johnny Field, I believe). The Twins kept him down to get the extra service time, not because he hadn't earned the call up. 

[Jham]

He had less than 100 at-bats in the majors that year and was coming off a 5 WAR season. The team made him play hurt early in the year, he didn't have that many at-bats in the minors either (less than 150) but had a .900+ OPS after July. Plus the Twins promoted worse players as injuries decimated our OF (Johnny Field, I believe). The Twins kept him down to get the extra service time, not because he hadn't earned the call up.

No one including the front office is saying that service time wasn't a consideration. Of course it was. Made him play hurt or let him play hurt? You realize that once he was cleared to play, they were free to option him instead of play him if service time was such a primary concern? Instead they decided to see if he could go. And he wasn't good.

 

Would you really rather have had Buxton for September 2018 than for all of 2022? Is Buxton a victim of loophole in the labor deal? Yes. Is his case different than any other player held back despite being ready? No. Pretty much every young player deals with this. What your saying is that every player good enough to be in the bigs has to be in the bigs or they got screwed. Should Smeltzer be mad that he lost service time to Kohl Stewart or Ryne Harper? Should Gordon be mad that Arraez jumped him on the depth chart?

 

Evidence suggests that many factors beyond service time were considered. Place in the standings, Evaluation of Cave and Kepler as centerfielders, Buxton's health and performance vs prior poor performance were all factors. I disagree that Buxton earned a call-up. I'll agree to the premise that played well enough to justify a call up, but so do many players who get left off. Buxton's case isn't special. Do think the front office was tempted to pull the trigger on Alex Kiriloff this fall? Did he play well enough? Was he a better player than Lamarre? Could the Twins have used his superior bat? Think starting the service time clock was a consideration in holding him back?

[ewen21]

 

.

 

If you believe the Twins were justified in holding Buxton back due to fear about him injuring himself, then you would have to accept that the Padres could do the same with Tatis in 2020. It's a very slippery slope if you don't draw the line at a player being entitled to a roster spot based on merit. I also think it's unfair to the players and the fans to allow ownership to keep a player down purely for financial reasons.

No, wrong.

 

This delusion that the Twins "held him back" really is something a lot of us feel is the fundamental flaw in your argument.  He was not held back.  The Twins have done everything they can to instill confidence in this player.  When he was hitting around .100 at the beginning of the season a few years ago Molitor and some of the players said he can hit .100 and still be a valuable player.  Really??  Really?

James Rowson said, "over my dead body" when it was opined that maybe he should be sent down.

 

Why should he get a pass is what I would like to know?  Why are we having to placate this guy?  I heard so much about what a high character kid he was and yet there he was in a children's hospital at a charity event ranting about not being called up.

 

Sorry dude.  Look in the mirror.  The Twins didn't run into walls, get migraines, hurt their hand and hit .156.  The Twins didn't hit like garbage in Rochester until he finally woke up about 10 days before the deadline.

 

And why are we comparing him to Bryant or Tatis?  Bryant is way better and Tatis come up as a 20 year old and played like a champ.  Buxton still looks completely lost in the batters box half the time.  Worst of all, he can't stay on the field and that doesn't help his development.

[diehardtwinsfan]

yeah, comparring him to Bryant really isn't fair.. there's very little similarities here other than that both were drafted high. 

 

Buxton can file that grievance, but I'd be very surprised if he won... He certainly didn't deserve a call up... his play dictated the need to evaluate other outfielders. 

[Don Walcott]

 

No, wrong.

 

This delusion that the Twins "held him back" really is something a lot of us feel is the fundamental flaw in your argument.  He was not held back.  The Twins have done everything they can to instill confidence in this player.  When he was hitting around .100 at the beginning of the season a few years ago Molitor and some of the players said he can hit .100 and still be a valuable player.  Really??  Really?

James Rowson said, "over my dead body" when it was opined that maybe he should be sent down.

 

Why should he get a pass is what I would like to know?  Why are we having to placate this guy?  I heard so much about what a high character kid he was and yet there he was in a children's hospital at a charity event ranting about not being called up.

 

Sorry dude.  Look in the mirror.  The Twins didn't run into walls, get migraines, hurt their hand and hit .156.  The Twins didn't hit like garbage in Rochester until he finally woke up about 10 days before the deadline.

 

And why are we comparing him to Bryant or Tatis?  Bryant is way better and Tatis come up as a 20 year old and played like a champ.  Buxton still looks completely lost in the batters box half the time.  Worst of all, he can't stay on the field and that doesn't help his development.

I think you missed the point of even the portion of my post that you quoted. People have made the argument here and elsewhere that he was not called up in September 2018 due to fear of him re-injuring himself. If you don't believe that to be the case, I've made my point about the comparison with Tatis and the slippery slope of that argument. And if you want further comparison with Tatis, at this point in his career, Tatis has not won a gold or platinum glove nor received any votes for MVP. Yet I doubt anyone would seriously argue that he should be in the minors in 2020 if he's healthy.

 

If your main point is that Buxton, by his performance, did not merit being called up in September 2018, that's an entirely different argument that I addressed in other portions of my post. I disagree with the argument that he didn't merit being the starting center fielder on the Twins in September 2018, much less a player on that expanded roster at all. From what I've seen of him over the past several years, when he's healthy, as he was in September 2018, he most definitely is the best option we have to start in center field. And based on statements by the organization in the off season and the fact that he was our opening day starting center fielder in 2019, I'd guess that the Twins organization agrees with me.

 

If your other argument is that he didn't merit a position on the Twins in September 2018, is based on his "character," as evidenced by his honest response to a question posed to him last off season after the Twins didn't call him up in September, suffice to say I disagree. I like his character.

 

As far as the comparison with Bryant, that's the whole point of this thread. I also addressed that comparison in my previous post.

[ewen21]

Sorry Don.  I said that because you didn't seem to understand what I and others were saying.  None of us believe he was "held back" by the Twins, but rather he performed poorly, was dealing with a variety of injuries and didn't really hit most of the time he was in Rochester until the very end..  This wasn't the no-brainer you guys keep making it out to be.  He hasn't developed into a reliable player and that's the issue he presents to us now.  What we can honestly say is he goes through long phases where he suddenly can't hit and he gets injured.  If you want to say he is fast and his defense is awesome that is as true as what I just said.  Can't we just say 2018 was bad and when he didn't (couldn't) made an assessment based off his performance and health.  Welcome to the major leagues Byron.  They babied him and did everything to make sure he was comfortable and happy.  That needed to change.  I hope he got the message, but I don't know.

 

I alluded to how clueless he was with finally breaking his silence at a charity event.  The fact that he goes stayed bitter about all the way up to before spring training is too pouty for me.  When he didn't get called up there was reports that he hadn't returned Torii Hunter's hone calls up to a week or so later.  This, for the simple fact that he fails to acknowledge his own inadequacies through it all.  Never once did he say he played poorly.  Instead he said, "I don't know what they want from me"

But please, make the distinction, all of this stuff happened after the fact and has nothing to with where I stand.  Right when they went to the 40-man and he was left off I agreed with the move.  I said so myself right here and I caught Hell for it.

 

It really is ridiculous because the answer for Buxton is simple: PROVE you can be an everyday player for us.  In the four season he had the starting job in CF he has played 100 or more games only once.  That simply is not good enough for a guy that often ends up being a liability with the bat on top of it.  To me, his time is almost up with this organization if he can't persevere and stay healthy.  I hope he can turn this around.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Sorry Don.  I said that because you didn't seem to understand what I and others were saying.  None of us believe he was "held back" by the Twins, but rather he performed poorly, was dealing with a variety of injuries and didn't really hit most of the time he was in Rochester until the very end..  This wasn't the no-brainer you guys keep making it out to be.  He hasn't developed into a reliable player and that's the issue he presents to us now.  What we can honestly say is he goes through long phases where he suddenly can't hit and he gets injured.  If you want to say he is fast and his defense is awesome that is as true as what I just said.  Can't we just say 2018 was bad and when he didn't (couldn't) made an assessment based off his performance and health.  Welcome to the major leagues Byron.  They babied him and did everything to make sure he was comfortable and happy.  That needed to change.  I hope he got the message, but I don't know.

 

I alluded to how clueless he was with finally breaking his silence at a charity event.  The fact that he goes stayed bitter about all the way up to before spring training is too pouty for me.  When he didn't get called up there was reports that he hadn't returned Torii Hunter's hone calls up to a week or so later.  This, for the simple fact that he fails to acknowledge his own inadequacies through it all.  Never once did he say he played poorly.  Instead he said, "I don't know what they want from me"

But please, make the distinction, all of this stuff happened after the fact and has nothing to with where I stand.  Right when they went to the 40-man and he was left off I agreed with the move.  I said so myself right here and I caught Hell for it.

 

It really is ridiculous because the answer for Buxton is simple: PROVE you can be an everyday player for us.  In the four season he had the starting job in CF he has played 100 or more games only once.  That simply is not good enough for a guy that often ends up being a liability with the bat on top of it.  To me, his time is almost up with this organization if he can't persevere and stay healthy.  I hope he can turn this around.

I keep seeing the same 3 arguments being beaten to death here:

 

1) He didn't "deserve," a call up - Please, read through that September roster and then tell me there wasn't room for Buxton.

 

2) He needed to gain confidence - I'm not sure how refusing to give PT to somebody instills confidence. Also, lets be honest, September rosters are full of guys that'll never have big league careers, i.e. an extension of the competition he was seeing in the minors. 

 

3) He needed to develop in the minors - His minor league season was over. They literally sent him home while the big league club played another 15+ games. Players don't develop by not being on the field.

 

You can be disappointed in Buxton's development to this point and still acknowledge that the decision to send him home that September was 100% motivated by service time. I'm guessing if we took a TD poll, an overwhelming majority would say they expected more from him this far into his Twins career.

 

Calling him "clueless," for answering a question posed by local media, at a charity event he voluntarily flew back to attend in the Twin Cities, just  months after the organization essentially stole a year of financial freedom from him, feels like a bit much. IMO the angst over his performance is misplaced when this topic comes up. Anybody on this board would feel the same way if they were on the receiving end of contract manipulation. 

[ewen21]

 

 

Calling him "clueless," for answering a question posed by local media, at a charity event he voluntarily flew back to attend in the Twin Cities, just months after the organization essentially stole a year of financial freedom from him, feels like a bit much. IMO the angst over his performance is misplaced when this topic comes up. Anybody on this board would feel the same way if they were on the receiving end of contract manipulation.

Have your other opinions if you want, but this right here is wrong. That is business and he played poorly. He put himself in that position and there was no obligation to bring him up. It's not something for nothing.

 

To say that "everyone" would have reacted that way is off base. I would not have reacted that way and I would guess a lot of others feel the same. His reaction was too pouty for me. Then for him to cry about "I don't know what they want from me"???

 

No way am I doing that. To assume otherwise about me is to assume I'm lying here and that is out of hand. Sorry

[Riverbrian]

I believe in Buxton and I wanted the extra year of service time because I believe in Buxton.

 

I’m not paying attention to any other reasons being floated. None of it matters in a lost season. The extra year gained is huge to anyone who believes in Buxton and are waiting for that big Buxton year.

 

Bryant can file all the grievances he wants. He won’t win... the agreement was bargained collectively.

 

We got an extra year of Buxton. I’m hoping to enjoy it.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Have your other opinions if you want, but this right here is wrong. That is business and he played poorly. He put himself in that position and there was no obligation to bring him up. It's not something for nothing.

To say that "everyone" would have reacted that way is off base. I would not have reacted that way and I would guess a lot of others feel the same. His reaction was too pouty for me. Then for him to cry about "I don't know what they want from me"???

No way am I doing that. To assume otherwise about me is to assume I'm lying here and that is out of hand. Sorry

I've never said it wasn't a business move, nor that the Twins were wrong by any legal standard. Buxton didn't "put himself," in that position though, the Twins chose to send him home. Again, look at the 40 players on the roster to end that year and tell me every single one of them was better than Byron Buxton; you can't. 

 

If you watched employees that you, and everybody else knew were inferior to yourself be promoted over you, and you found out that the reason for your lack of movement was that the company wanted to avoid paying you a bonus, you wouldn't be pissed? There would be no hard feelings towards your employer? 

 

I'm not calling you a liar, but I am pointing out that the anger over his on field performance is coloring the view of his service time manipulation to the point where he apparently isn't even allowed to be upset about having a year of FA taken from him. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

I believe in Buxton and I wanted the extra year of service time because I believe in Buxton.

I’m not paying attention to any other reasons being floated. None of it matters in a lost season. The extra year gained is huge to anyone who believes in Buxton and are waiting for that big Buxton year.

Bryant can file all the grievances he wants. He won’t win... the agreement was bargained collectively.

We got an extra year of Buxton. I’m hoping to enjoy it.

As a fan it makes total sense to want the extra year. You're the right, the Twins had the option to take the year, and legally speaking they did nothing wrong. That said, it doesn't mean the organization's decision was necessarily right from a relations standpoint, or that it's best for the long term outlook. If the decision to send Buxton home is chalked up as simply business then fine; it's the other rationalizations that really have no base. 

[Riverbrian]

As a fan it makes total sense to want the extra year. You're the right, the Twins had the option to take the year, and legally speaking they did nothing wrong. That said, it doesn't mean the organization's decision was necessarily right from a relations standpoint, or that it's best for the long term outlook. If the decision to send Buxton home is chalked up as simply business then fine; it's the other rationalizations that really have no base.

It has been the only thing I’ve stated consistently. I want the extra year.

 

I’m a fan and I’m looking out for MY best interest. I’m not running a charity here.

[spanman2]

In neither instance did either the Cubs or Twins do anything outside of what the CBA said they could or couldn't do.  I think it is as simple as that for either player to think they are going to get paid forward they are going to be disappointed.  Neither team broke any rules.  Come next CBA I see those rules changing.

[ewen21]

 

 

 

I'm not calling you a liar, but I am pointing out that the anger over his on field performance is coloring the view of his service time manipulation to the point where he apparently isn't even allowed to be upset about having a year of FA taken from him. 

He could get upset if he wants to, but the Twins have nothing to apologize for

[ewen21]

 

It has been the only thing I’ve stated consistently. I want the extra year.

I’m a fan and I’m looking out for MY best interest. I’m not running a charity here.

 

I wasn't even thinking about the extra year of team control.  What does it matter if he misses two months to an injury again?  Where is his career going if that happens again?

 

The Twins have given him nothing but support over the years and have tried to make him feel comforable.  As soon as he gets hit with adversity, he snapped.  The Twins didn't make him hit .156, get injured and suffer migraines.  They didn't make him hit in the .220s most of the time he was with Rochester until he finally woke up the last 10 days before the rosters expanded.

 

Does he feel he is supposed to get special treatment because of his draft position or because there are people who fawn over him?   Couldn't he have been a stand up guy and acknowledge that he is as responsible (probably more) than the Twins are for what happened?

[Riverbrian]

 

I wasn't even thinking about the extra year of team control.  What does it matter if he misses two months to an injury again?  Where is his career going if that happens again?

 

The Twins have given him nothing but support over the years and have tried to make him feel comforable.  As soon as he gets hit with adversity, he snapped.  The Twins didn't make him hit .156, get injured and suffer migraines.  They didn't make him hit in the .220s most of the time he was with Rochester until he finally woke up the last 10 days before the rosters expanded.

 

Does he feel he is supposed to get special treatment because of his draft position or because there are people who fawn over him?   Couldn't he have been a stand up guy and acknowledge that he is as responsible (probably more) than the Twins are for what happened?

 

It's a business and these are big boys. The Twins will be alright and Byron Buxton will be alright. From my perspective. I wanted the extra year and I got it. That's all I need. I don't need to pile on the organization or Byron any further. If he becomes what he could become... that extra year will be nice. If he doesn't come around the extra year will not matter. I believe it will eventually matter. 

 

He didn't snap... He answered a question. I have no problem with players expressing themselves. He competed for the Twins this year. He isn't talking about it. It's OK to give him a pass. 

[ewen21]

It's a business and these are big boys.

 

He didn't snap... He answered a question. I have no problem with players expressing themselves. He competed for the Twins this year. He isn't talking about it. It's OK to give him a pass.

He was a lot more animated than I ever saw in an interview. I thought for him to view it as a one way street and not take ownership for having dogsh-- year was weak

 

He needs to be more concerned about his own game because as Kurt Russell said in Miracle, "there's plenty there to keep you busy"

Then he says he doesn't know what the Twins want from him? How about hit your weight and stay on the field?

 

No self-awareness on his part and even less introspection, you can say what you want about him expressing himself. He did and I didn't like it

[glunn]

I don't blame Buxton for being angry or the Twins for making a business decision.  I would rather focus on the potential upside for both parties.

 

As I recall, when this came up in an earlier thread a lot of people came to the view that it would be good for everyone if Buxton used his anger to fuel improved performance, especially at the plate. It seems to me that his batting performance improved greatly this year. His OBS of .827 was by far the best of his career -- but he had only 271 ABs. 

 

I think that Buxton has the tools to be be a huge star, but only if he can reduce his time on the DL. Is there any other star player, past or present, who has crashed into outfield walls harder and/or more often than Byron? 

 

Next year I would like to see an angry Buxton playing in at least 150 games and, after that, a long term contract. But if Buxton is not going to commit to being more careful with walls, I wonder if it might be better to trade him before his next collision. And I sure wish that someone would work with Buxton on his bunting skills. With his speed, he would be scary if he could bunt more effectively.

 

 

[ewen21]

 

I don't blame Buxton for being angry or the Twins for making a business decision.  I would rather focus on the potential upside for both parties.

 

As I recall, when this came up in an earlier thread a lot of people came to the view that it would be good for everyone if Buxton used his anger to fuel improved performance, especially at the plate. It seems to me that his batting performance improved greatly this year. His OBS of .827 was by far the best of his career -- but he had only 271 ABs. 

 

I think that Buxton has the tools to be be a huge star, but only if he can reduce his time on the DL. Is there any other star player, past or present, who has crashed into outfield walls harder and/or more often than Byron? 

 

Next year I would like to see an angry Buxton playing in at least 150 games and, after that, a long term contract. But if Buxton is not going to commit to being more careful with walls, I wonder if it might be better to trade him before his next collision. And I sure wish that someone would work with Buxton on his bunting skills. With his speed, he would be scary if he could bunt more effectively.

He has to play a full season.  He has been given four opportunities to do so and he has over 100 games ONCE.  If he fails to do so again, or has a weak year offensively in 2020 I don't give a damn about his glove or his speed.   The run should be over.

 

This is it for me.  I am tired of hearing about his potential and how his glove cures cancer.  He is not around half the time (literally) and half the time he is around he is an offensive liability.  He needs to be a more reliable player.  THe injuries and prolonged bouts of offensive ineptitude is just too much to shrug off anymore.  He is in his prime and that isn't going to last long if he keeps on getting hurt

[Don Walcott]

How did this thread turn into a debate about Buxton's character? I don't believe that is relevant in any way to whether he has a case against the Twins for manipulating his service time.

 

I also don't believe it is relevant that, as a fan, you want an extra year of team control over a player.

 

The question here is whether this conduct is okay. As I pointed out above, if you think it's okay for teams to hold back players for service time for any reason or no reason at all, it's a very slippery slope, and not one that is good for the fans or the players. If you believe roster spots are earned and teams have a duty to play players who have earned their spots, I don't see this as even being a very close call. Bryant should not have been held back. Buxton deserved a roster spot in September 2018.

 

If roster spots cannot be earned by players, I believe the teams holding them back are not acting in good faith, which constitutes a breach of contract. I would definitely take this one to the judge.

[Riverbrian]

 

 

 

I also don't believe it is relevant that, as a fan, you want an extra year of team control over a player.

 

The question here is whether this conduct is okay. As I pointed out above, if you think it's okay for teams to hold back players for service time for any reason or no reason at all, it's a very slippery slope, and not one that is good for the fans or the players. If you believe roster spots are earned and teams have a duty to play players who have earned their spots, I don't see this as even being a very close call. Bryant should not have been held back. Buxton deserved a roster spot in September 2018.

 

If roster spots cannot be earned by players, I believe the teams holding them back are not acting in good faith, which constitutes a breach of contract. I would definitely take this one to the judge.

 

You can't state that my wanting "an extra year of control" is not "relevant" and then state that holding players back is "not one that is good for the FANS or the players". 

 

However, if you wish to limit the conversation to your defined narrow scope of considerations.

 

OK... I'm game... Let's start with the "Slippery Slope" that you mention. John Danks, Phil Hughes, Evan Longoria, Jordan Zimmerman are possible examples of "Service Time Manipulation" from 2007, 2008 and 2009. 

 

If you consider that it has been 12 years time from 2007 to 2019 and the players union just got around to using Kris Bryant as a "Test Case". Can you better define how slippery or slopee the slope actually is? 

 

If you want to cling your hopes on the vague usage of "Good Faith" in the CBA language. Go ahead but it's kind of like using a dog leash to stop a tanker at sea. 

 

 

[yarnivek1972]

Johnny Field started 9 games in September 2018 because Buxton wasn’t on the roster.

 

That’s really the only evidence he would need to show he was deserving.

[nicksaviking]

Is it stated somewhere that players must be on the 25-man if they are one of the team's 25 best players?

 

I'm just wondering, aside from any PR situations, why teams can't just say "Um, duh. We want you for seven years, not six years." Where are the grievances stemming from, as far as I know it's written into the CBA for teams to do exactly that.

 

The CBA needs to be way more player friendly, but I don't see the legal issue with this.

 

Also, on things to fix with the CBA, I'd start negotiations with the issues that more directly impact the non-top draft picks than the ones that mostly affect guys who already got +3M signing bonuses.