Falvey: "...We're going to target impact pitching."

[prouster]

The Cardinals have scored two runs on eleven hits over their last three games. They have not had a single lead for the entire NLCS. How on earth can anyone say they’re playing good baseball?

[Mike Sixel]

  On 10/15/2019 at 5:33 PM, prouster said:

The Cardinals have scored two runs on eleven hits over their last three games. They have not had a single lead for the entire NLCS. How on earth can anyone say they’re playing good baseball?

Because defense and pitching are also part of the game?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

  On 10/15/2019 at 5:14 PM, ashbury said:

The Twins clearly weren't ready to win in 2019, but better days are coming. Hopefully Marwin Gonzalez and Sergio Romo and Nelson Cruz learned from this post-season and will be better prepared in 2020.

Disagree.* Instead of pinning all that responsibility on just those three guys, the Twins should go out this offseason and get a top slugger, versatile defender, and veteran pitcher with postseason experience.

 

 

*ISWYDT ... Am I doing this right?

 

.

[Squirrel]

 

  On 10/15/2019 at 5:33 PM, prouster said:

The Cardinals have scored two runs on eleven hits over their last three games. They have not had a single lead for the entire NLCS. How on earth can anyone say they’re playing good baseball?

That's how you judge the game? Did you actually watch games 1 and 2?

[Riverbrian]

There are moments in baseball games where you simply need to make a play. And moments where not making a play opens a door way way too wide. 

 

Game One clearly turned when Arraez didn't catch that ball. Was it the injury? Was it Nerves? Was it inexperience? I don't know but a major league ball player needs to make that catch. Maybe he lost a step due to injury, I really don't know but what I do know is that he made enough steps to be in position to make the catch. Did he make the catch harder because he lost a step? Maybe but a major league ball player based on where he was. Hard Yes... but not Major League talent prohibitive. Arraez has probably made that catch a hundred times. 

 

After the catch isn't made... Berrios needs to cover for it and make some pitches... he couldn't spot his breaking pitches... the pitch count continued to rise, the bases got loaded and Cron dropped a double play that would have saved everyone. Cron probably makes that catch 99 times out of a hundred. It doesn't mean that Arraez or Cron were bad defensive choices... it means they didn't make plays that they usually make and the Yankees were making plays while we gave them extra chances to make them. 

 

This forced Berrios out earlier than planned, which led to Littell folding under the bright lights, which led to bringing in Duffey earlier than planned, which led to Stashak being used, which led to Gibson being used. And with each subsequent moves, the Yankees continued to make plays, hit, field, and pitch. 

 

Not making plays!!! This is what this is and why the Twins are watching the rest of the action on TV. 

 

The Twins need to target impact pitching because we have a 162 games to navigate to get to the playoffs and once we reach the playoffs... we have to make plays!!! 

 

The Nats are making plays, getting clutch hits, making good pitches, enjoying some lucky breaks and fielding their positions like professionals. If the Cards are going to come back and win. They will have to do it themselves, because the Nats don't look like they are going to give the Cards any unforced bonuses at the moment. 

 

Just like the Yankees gave us nothing. 

 

If the Cards lose... will it be their fault? Or do the Nats get credit?

 

Probably somewhere in between lies the answer. 

[Jacks02]

 

  On 10/15/2019 at 3:46 PM, SQUIRREL said:

If you watched the first two games of the Nats-Cards series, all I could say after was 'Wow.' That wasn't good baseball, it was great baseball, on both sides. It didn't matter one team lost (okay, well, it probably mattered to the Cards) but that was great baseball, by both teams, and I applauded both teams, and said ... no way the Twins would have competed with that, as I didn't see that level of play all year. It wasn't just pitching that we didn't have. We relied heavily on the home run, and that was okay to get us to the playoffs, but we just weren't able to shift to 'playoff caliber' for whatever reason ... was it the coaching? Maybe. Was it team construction? Maybe. Was it inexperience? Maybe. Was it just a slightly lower level of talent? Maybe. There could be lots of reasons, and there were a combination of things, but those first two games in that series, as I said, all I could say was 'Wow, the Twins would not have been able to compete with that.' It was great baseball, on all levels, getting the performances they needed at the right time to make for what it was.

 

Sometimes I wonder if the Twins approach the last week or two of the season didn't play a part in the poor performance. Yes, there were injuries to Kepler and Arraez that kept them from playing, but overall it seemed they were a bit lackadaisical in their approach and not really taking things seriously to get into playoff mode mentality.

 

They seemed to lay everything on the line for the Indians series, then just coast the rest of the way to the playoffs. Having Adrianza as manager for the day, AAAA lineups, and bullpen games. To go from two weeks straight of that approach against teams like the White Sox, Tigers, and Royals straight into a three game series against the Yankees really didn't set the Twins up for success. It's really hard to just flip a switch on the intensity meter come playoff time.

[prouster]

  On 10/15/2019 at 6:06 PM, SQUIRREL said:

That's how you judge the game? Did you actually watch games 1 and 2?

Most of game 1. Checked in periodically on game 2. I know I’d be very frustrated if the Twins bats went this cold. So yes, I judge how a team is doing by looking at how many runs they score versus how many they give up, and if they ever get a lead over their opponent.

[prouster]

  On 10/15/2019 at 6:01 PM, Mike Sixel said:

Because defense and pitching are also part of the game?

They lost 8-1 the other night. What’s your point?

[Battle ur tail off]

 

  On 10/11/2019 at 10:13 PM, Major League Ready said:

Agree but part of it is also that everyone wants the truly elite free agent SPs and Minnesota is down the list or not even on the list of places they want to play. 

 

This is so untrue its not even funny. 

 

Top players will come here if they are paid at the market rate or slightly above. These guys care about one thing, most of them and that's money. Well, maybe 2 things. Money and winning. The Twins can provide both right now. 

 

The problem has always been the money end of it. Lower offers made by the Twins will not be accepted and making it seem as if players don't want to come here is a cop out. 

[Major League Ready]

 

  On 10/15/2019 at 8:41 PM, Battle ur tail off said:

This is so untrue its not even funny. 

 

Top players will come here if they are paid at the market rate or slightly above. These guys care about one thing, most of them and that's money. Well, maybe 2 things. Money and winning. The Twins can provide both right now. 

 

The problem has always been the money end of it. Lower offers made by the Twins will not be accepted and making it seem as if players don't want to come here is a cop out. 

 

OK. There should be plenty of examples if your position is valid. Give us examples of the ace type SPs that have signed with small or mid-market teams. I will give you Grienke to Arizona but there needs to be an asterisk on that one given they were about to get a billion dollar TV contract. Back up your position with facts that prove this strategy has been executed by teams in a similar position.

[SomeGuy]

The Nationals 4 playoff starters made $99.32M this season.That is about 84.4% of the Twins 2019 payroll according to baseball reference. Max Scherzer alone would have been 35% of the Twins payroll.
 

Its not often that a rotation like this comes together (maybe 2 more seasons of it too). This is only possible on a top payroll team.

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 10/15/2019 at 9:51 PM, SomeGuy said:

The Nationals 4 playoff starters made $99.32M this season.That is about 84.4% of the Twins 2019 payroll according to baseball reference. Max Scherzer alone would have been 35% of the Twins payroll.
 

Its not often that a rotation like this comes together (maybe 2 more seasons of it too). This is only possible on a top payroll team.

 

No one is asking for the Twins to go get 4 expensive players.......how about 1?

[bird]

 

  On 10/15/2019 at 11:15 AM, akmanak said:

I always enjoy the end of the season for moments like this. Year after painful year we hyoe ourselves up believing that this is the offseason we make the big moves to aquire some decent pitching and year after year the Twins stand idle.

Here is the question I pose to the board, when do you finally realize that the owners simply dont care about this team?

 

 

My answer to the question posed is that if one pays attention to the actions of Jim Pohlad and if one allows one's mind to open up to the possibility that things are not what they once were, one knows that this has become a clown question, bro. 

[Major League Ready]

 

  On 10/15/2019 at 9:53 PM, Mike Sixel said:

No one is asking for the Twins to go get 4 expensive players.......how about 1?

 

They need 3, IMO. I am going to guess one of (Wheeler / Kuechel / Bumgarner + Odorizzi & Pineda costs roughly $50M AAV. Would you prefer that trio or Cole / Odorizzi and one of our rookies which is also around $50M AAV?

 

I am not sure $50M is the number. They need to make sure they can cover the arbitration increases over the next couple of years. 

 

BTW ... I like the idea of 2 of the 1st group + Pineda.

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 10/15/2019 at 10:51 PM, Major League Ready said:

They need 3, IMO. I am going to guess one of (Wheeler / Kuechel / Bumgarner + Odorizzi & Pineda costs roughly $50M AAV. Would you prefer that trio or Cole / Odorizzi and one of our rookies which is also around $50M AAV?

 

I am not sure $50M is the number. They need to make sure they can cover the arbitration increases over the next couple of years. 

 

BTW ... I like the idea of 2 of the 1st group + Pineda.

 

Phew. Tough call...,...

 

I think I like Cole and Odo and a rookie more than three from tier two. But I'm not sure about that. Either would be good, imo.

 

Pineda makes me nervous. In addition to his suspension, he's been hurt every year in his career but 1 (I think it's 1).

[yarnivek1972]

  On 10/15/2019 at 11:03 PM, Mike Sixel said:

Phew. Tough call...,...

 

I think I like Cole and Odo and a rookie more than three from tier two. But I'm not sure about that. Either would be good, imo.

 

Pineda makes me nervous. In addition to his suspension, he's been hurt every year in his career but 1 (I think it's 1).

He spent time on IL this year, but I don’t think he was ever actually “hurt”. I am pretty sure they were planned stints to (try) to prevent injury and limit his innings. The first stint was exactly 10 days, the second was 13. But I suspect the second was extended so he didn’t have to bat in Milwaukee.

[SwainZag]

 

  On 10/15/2019 at 1:12 PM, jz7233 said:

Nationals showed what elite starting pitching could do in post season.

 

Nationals have had elite pitching for years and they just won the 1st postseason series in their team's history.  It takes a lot more than have some top arms at the front of your rotation

[tvagle]

I offer Cole his choice:

 

6-7 years $35M = $210-$245M

 

or

 

4-5  years $40M - $160-$200M

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 10/15/2019 at 11:10 PM, yarnivek1972 said:

He spent time on IL this year, but I don’t think he was ever actually “hurt”. I am pretty sure they were planned stints to (try) to prevent injury and limit his innings. The first stint was exactly 10 days, the second was 13. But I suspect the second was extended so he didn’t have to bat in Milwaukee.

 

and the two years before that? And before those two years? He's just not been healthy......and does anyone think he won't be rusty the first couple starts?

[wabene]

Pineda came out of at least one of those breaks firing quite nicely.

 

The big factor for the way things went was timing. Early in the year when Buxton was going Sano just starting to go this team was tough enough. By September we were just good enough to play our way to a crown against the easier schedule. This team peaked at the wrong time.

[yarnivek1972]

  On 10/15/2019 at 11:30 PM, Mike Sixel said:

and the two years before that? And before those two years? He's just not been healthy......and does anyone think he won't be rusty the first couple starts?

The point is he wasn’t hurt this year very possibly due to the way he was handled. Given the way that Berrios has faded late basically every year it seems extremely likely that he will be given in season breaks as well going forward.

[Riverbrian]

 

  On 10/15/2019 at 10:51 PM, Major League Ready said:

They need 3, IMO. I am going to guess one of (Wheeler / Kuechel / Bumgarner + Odorizzi & Pineda costs roughly $50M AAV. Would you prefer that trio or Cole / Odorizzi and one of our rookies which is also around $50M AAV?

 

I am not sure $50M is the number. They need to make sure they can cover the arbitration increases over the next couple of years. 

 

BTW ... I like the idea of 2 of the 1st group + Pineda.

 

In my opinion... they need volume and I think you are light. 

 

Free Agents, trades, tripping over arms in a pumpkin patch. They need to collect them this off season as seriously as any organization has ever searched for them. 

 

If they can't sign or trade for 4 quality starters (I think that is tall order). They need to scrap the 5 starter rotation model, borrow from the Rays and increase the size of the bullpen to compensate for what may be too hard to do in the traditional rotation model. 

 

Whatever, direction they go... they need quality and quantity. It's going to be an interesting off season... at least it better be. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

  On 10/15/2019 at 11:16 PM, SwainZag said:

Nationals have had elite pitching for years and they just won the 1st postseason series in their team's history. It takes a lot more than have some top arms at the front of your rotation

FWIW, although they had lost their previous 4 division series, they were competitive in all of them -- 3 five gamers and the other a very close 4 gamer with the eventual champ Giants.

 

And while they've had good pitchers, they didn't always have *elite* postseason SP -- Strasburg missed the first division series, and Scherzer the first two. There was a lot of Jordan Zimmermann, Gio Gonzalez, Doug Fister, etc. Who were good in their time but ultimately maybe closer to Odorizzi/Berrios level than Scherzer/Strasburg level.

[akmanak]

This board drives me crazy sometimes. My rebuttal to the constant criticism of the owners not caring about this team is this: When is the last time the Twins actually spent some decent money on payroll? Year after year we hear the same things at the end of the season and still people fall for it .

 

Signing Cruz, Schoop, and Cron didnt show that managment has turned a new leaf, all it showed was they got lucky. Statistics do not lie and all you have to do is look at our overall payroll to see that nothing has changed nor will it.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

  On 10/16/2019 at 11:25 AM, akmanak said:

Signing Cruz, Schoop, and Cron didnt show that managment has turned a new leaf, all it showed was they got lucky. 

I wouldn't say "lucky" -- but those were very much moves that TR could have made.

 

So far, we've seen more aggressiveness with the quantity of moves from the new FO, but no indications -- yet -- that they are willing/able to commit more years or dollars to moves. Hopefully they get a good chance to demonstrate that this winter.

[Major League Ready]

 

  On 10/16/2019 at 11:25 AM, akmanak said:

This board drives me crazy sometimes. My rebuttal to the constant criticism of the owners not caring about this team is this: When is the last time the Twins actually spent some decent money on payroll? Year after year we hear the same things at the end of the season and still people fall for it .

Signing Cruz, Schoop, and Cron didnt show that managment has turned a new leaf, all it showed was they got lucky. Statistics do not lie and all you have to do is look at our overall payroll to see that nothing has changed nor will it.

 

The discussion of payroll drives me crazy too and this is a good example. Decent money is a very vague definition. How would you define "decent money"? What is the bar or relative measure?

[Major League Ready]

 

  On 10/15/2019 at 11:16 PM, SwainZag said:

Nationals have had elite pitching for years and they just won the 1st postseason series in their team's history.  It takes a lot more than have some top arms at the front of your rotation

 

KC won the World Series without any elite starting pitching to start the season and added a borderline elite SP at the deadline who pitched poorly up until the series. I would add they would have won that series without him. Having said this, elite SP is a big plus but there are many aspects to building a winner.

[SomeGuy]

 

  On 10/16/2019 at 12:37 AM, yarnivek1972 said:

The point is he wasn’t hurt this year very possibly due to the way he was handled. Given the way that Berrios has faded late basically every year it seems extremely likely that he will be given in season breaks as well going forward.

You're speculating that the Tricep strain/Shoulder sublaxation and Knee Tendinitis were planned days off? I haven't seen anything to back that up. Maybe the team broke the rules and faked injuries, wouldn't be the first time.  Maybe we were ultra safe with him and placed him on the IL with the slightest bit of soreness.  Either way he has missed time with injury every year but two in his career (2011 and 2016). Average of 109 innings per season since 2014.  137 innings per season for his career if you exclude the full seasons he has missed (91 innings per year if you include the full seasons missed).

 

I would try to resign him to a 2 year deal at a decent price. Its likely another team is willing to gamble more on his health than I would be. You would be wise to expect at least one injury somewhere in his next deal along with that suspension time.

[Battle ur tail off]

 

  On 10/15/2019 at 9:16 PM, Major League Ready said:

OK. There should be plenty of examples if your position is valid. Give us examples of the ace type SPs that have signed with small or mid-market teams. I will give you Grienke to Arizona but there needs to be an asterisk on that one given they were about to get a billion dollar TV contract. Back up your position with facts that prove this strategy has been executed by teams in a similar position.

 

Not always pitching, but there have been plenty of high end free agents that sign the top dollar bid at smaller market teams. 

 

The point I was trying to make is that if the top dollar bid is made by the Twins, it will most likely be accepted. However, of course if your bid is lower, the guy will not come here. 

 

Diamondbacks have signed a few guys like this.

Padres

Marlins have done it

Texas Rangers

 

I am not saying that the right way to build a team is to sign top free agents all the time. Far from it. However, I don't feel that a higher offer made to a player by the Twins or any other winning franchise would be rejected, if in fact, they are high bidder. 

[Major League Ready]

 

  On 10/16/2019 at 2:20 PM, Battle ur tail off said:

Not always pitching, but there have been plenty of high end free agents that sign the top dollar bid at smaller market teams. 

 

The point I was trying to make is that if the top dollar bid is made by the Twins, it will most likely be accepted. However, of course if your bid is lower, the guy will not come here. 

 

Diamondbacks have signed a few guys like this.

Padres

Marlins have done it

Texas Rangers

 

I am not saying that the right way to build a team is to sign top free agents all the time. Far from it. However, I don't feel that a higher offer made to a player by the Twins or any other winning franchise would be rejected, if in fact, they are high bidder. 

 

The thread is in response to the Twins targeting "impact pitching". Year after year we see the same proclamation that the reason the FO can't sign an ace is that they are cheap and/or incompetent. Every year I ask for examples that would suggest this is an issue specific to the Twins. All I am suggesting is that Twins fans should not be angry at the organization given the history of this type of free agent. It's not their fault that those players prefer the large market teams and it's not their fault the top markets have a $100M+ revenue advantage.