Falvey: "...We're going to target impact pitching."

[mikelink45]

I have been watching Calvin Griffith, Terry Ryan and others since 1961.  Color me a skeptic.  This was the year to do something.  If action was taken and we still failed we could live with it.  No Buxton is not to much to give away.  Arms matter - they always have.  So does this article mean anything to me?  No.

 

I wait and if they act I will be happy, but praise does not come before action. 

[yarnivek1972]

“Targeting” impact arms and ACQUIRING them are two very different things.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

You realize that Keuchel didn't go 5 innings in either of his starts for the Braves in the playoffs, and that the Braves lost both of the games he started, right?

 

He was also just 8-8 with a 3.57 ERA during the regular season.

 

Kimbrel had a 6.53 ERA and 1.60 WHIP for the Cubs, who failed to reach the playoffs.

 

I get complaining about the front office not spending money, but in this case, I don't see either of those guys making much of a difference against the Yankees in the playoffs.

In the end, not getting Keuchel hurt the Twins but only after they had already lost Pineda and Gibson.

 

While Keuchel is... maybe?... an upgrade over a healthy Gibson, he's not an upgrade over what we saw of Pineda before he was suspended.

 

But pitching depth almost always ends up mattering, most of us were just looking in the wrong direction (the bullpen) to find it in June.

[wabene]

If we had Pineda for the postseason we would have had a good postseason rotation with Berrios, Pineda, and Odorizzi. The FO had us in a decent position starter wise before Pineda did what he did.

 

We weren't going to win many games against the Yankees top scoring offense with only 2.3 runs per game either.

This gets it for me. You couldn't plan for what happened with Pineda. Berrios had his usual fade, but bounced back somewhat. He needs to continue developing and make some changes. He can't pitch on 6 days all season.

 

I think it is unrealistic calling for 2 outside impact signings. The best outcome would be to bring back Odo and Pineda and sign one of the 4 mentioned above.

[Monkeypaws]

Well they seemed to get the offense in order in a pretty short time, rather, to a record breaking level of awesomeness. Perhaps a bit of luck involved, but they targeted guys poised for a bounce back, or picked up some nice bargains, while riding the young core and getting the right guys to have good chemistry, manager included. None of these guys were hot ticket items.

 

What hot-ticket pitcher would have chosen the Twins last year? Yah sure money speaks, but these guys know they are in this game for only a short while, and I'd wager that for the elite arms, the chance to win trumps money all day, especially given the amount of money they command. 

 

Minnesota looks a lot more attractive to top arms this off-season than it has in a while.

[KirbyDome89]

 

There may have been times when this FO deserved to be criticized for not doing enough, but to accuse them of doing nothing or being "all talk" is silly talk.

 

Like every FO, they're not immune from an occasional regrettable decision. But anyone who pays close attention to ALL of what has been going on would describe their efforts as proactive, even aggressive. Some may define "impact" differently than they do as they assess the offseason moves, and that's fine. For example, the Cron and Schoop decisions were dismissed by some as disappointing.

 

I understand some skepticism, but from where I sit, this FO has been both true to their wordy words and pretty good at swiftly improving things. I'm fairly optimistic.

I think the distinction lies in the interpretation of "impact." The additions thus far have been low risk, short term, and/or reclamation projects. They've hit on some, and others have been failures, but that isn't much different than the approach this organization had before the new FO was implemented. Falvey & Co have been "in," on some big names with nothing to show for it. They need to actually submit the highest bid for one of those arms. Everybody, myself included, equates "impact," to Gerrit Cole tier arms. It's clear this team needs top end pitching talent if they want to have a chance in the postseason. 

 

We all agree that areas of the organization have improved; I don't think anybody is arguing that things have gotten worse. Pitching has been the biggest issue since Falvey was hired. He's going on year 4 now, and it continues to be a black eye.

 

I'm not a fan of the catch phrases and PR spin., If it's more middle ground moves and another early postseason exit they'll have lost credibility. There's plenty of money and prospect capital to spend, but we've heard that story before. 

[brvama]

So far improving the pitching has been signing FA’s, but there may be an opportunity on the trade market. I not sure how I totally stand on this target, but I read an article from a sports writer in Providence, RI, (I believe) who had a plan on how Boston can get under the payroll tax. One suggestion was to trade Price. Not sure if that is what we should do, however, he is still a good SP, left-handed and would be controlled for 3? years yet. Might not take super prospects, IDK. Anyway, IMO, I’d call that an impact acquisition (that is w/o doing all the research on him at this time.). I’m sure there are others.

[yarnivek1972]

So far improving the pitching has been signing FA’s, but there may be an opportunity on the trade market. I not sure how I totally stand on this target, but I read an article from a sports writer in Providence, RI, (I believe) who had a plan on how Boston can get under the payroll tax. One suggestion was to trade Price. Not sure if that is what we should do, however, he is still a good SP, left-handed and would be controlled for 3? years yet. Might not take super prospects, IDK. Anyway, IMO, I’d call that an impact acquisition (that is w/o doing all the research on him at this time.). I’m sure there are others.

Price is 34, coming off one of the worst season of his career in terms of ERA + and has missed at least 1/3 of the season in 2 of the last 3 years. I’d say no further research is needed.

[bird]

 

I think the distinction lies in the interpretation of "impact." The additions thus far have been low risk, short term, and/or reclamation projects. They've hit on some, and others have been failures, but that isn't much different than the approach this organization had before the new FO was implemented. Falvey & Co have been "in," on some big names with nothing to show for it. They need to actually submit the highest bid for one of those arms. Everybody, myself included, equates "impact," to Gerrit Cole tier arms. It's clear this team needs top end pitching talent if they want to have a chance in the postseason. 

 

We all agree that areas of the organization have improved; I don't think anybody is arguing that things have gotten worse. Pitching has been the biggest issue since Falvey was hired. He's going on year 4 now, and it continues to be a black eye.

 

I'm not a fan of the catch phrases and PR spin., If it's more middle ground moves and another early postseason exit they'll have lost credibility. There's plenty of money and prospect capital to spend, but we've heard that story before. 

 

 

 

Give me zero impact then, if it means going from 78 wins to 101 wins in a single season.

[darin617]

I'm going to offer up a signing that would be fairly cheap but could really turn the corner even more again in 2020. Jordan Lyles. When he came to Milwaukee he turned into one of their better starters for sure. 

 

I don't see them being able to get any of the top tier pitchers anyways. I also feel bad for any team that gives MadBum a 3-5 year deal. So many miles on that arm and he's not as dominate as he was in the past.

[wabene]

Cruz was a hugely impactful signing. The Pineda signing was a super smart signing and if not for the suspension would fall in the same category. The Odo trade a slam dunk. As mentioned going from 78 to 101 is the proof. This franchise is headed in the right direction. I'll start to worry if the plan is to count on Dobnak, Thorpe and Smeltz for more than one rotation spot. Even Graterol in the rotation is a bad sign, because he won't be able to start the whole year, unless he is there to cover for Pineda then headed to the pen.

[USAFChief]

 

Price is 34, coming off one of the worst season of his career in terms of ERA + and has missed at least 1/3 of the season in 2 of the last 3 years. I’d say no further research is needed.

Going off one injury-impacted season is a poor way to do business. I don't know what the chances of Price returning to form are, hopefully the front office does.

 

Not specifically Price, perhaps, but these are the type opportunities the Twins will need to look for if they are going to add "impact arms." They're not signing Cole (and even if they do, they need more than one starter at/above Berrios' level IMO), and I doubt they'll sign from the next level of FA starters. It's possible, but doubtful. So now you're looking at adding through trades (or waiver claims). Find some bounceback candidates, and make it happen. Perhaps Price, he's been good for a long time, and even this year wasn't really bad.

[yarnivek1972]

Going off one injury-impacted season is a poor way to do business. I don't know what the chances of Price returning to form are, hopefully the front office does.

 

Not specifically Price, perhaps, but these are the type opportunities the Twins will need to look for if they are going to add "impact arms." They're not signing Cole (and even if they do, they need more than one starter at/above Berrios' level IMO), and I doubt they'll sign from the next level of FA starters. It's possible, but doubtful. So now you're looking at adding through trades (or waiver claims). Find some bounceback candidates, and make it happen. Perhaps Price, he's been good for a long time, and even this year wasn't really bad.

How about 2 of the last 3? You know, like what I actually stated in my post. In addition to being well past 30. Which I also mentioned. If you are going to quote me, please be accurate.

[Blake]

 

Going off one injury-impacted season is a poor way to do business. I don't know what the chances of Price returning to form are, hopefully the front office does.

 

Not specifically Price, perhaps, but these are the type opportunities the Twins will need to look for if they are going to add "impact arms." They're not signing Cole (and even if they do, they need more than one starter at/above Berrios' level IMO), and I doubt they'll sign from the next level of FA starters. It's possible, but doubtful. So now you're looking at adding through trades (or waiver claims). Find some bounceback candidates, and make it happen. Perhaps Price, he's been good for a long time, and even this year wasn't really bad.

Bounce back candidate?

 

When did you start advocating for the return of Kyle Gibson?

 

*I'll show myself out, thanks.

[Dantes929]

 

You realize we started an Uber driver in Yankee stadium right? You realize he was on a 1-year deal right?

 

You also realize that Kuechel over his career has pretty well destroyed the Yankees right?

 

Looking at the box score, they were both 1-run games that they lost and he fared pretty decent. I didn't say the guy was Randy Johnson reincarnated, but with Kuechel on this roster, there would have been no need for that bullpen game. 

Its not like he was a random Uber driver.    He threw at three minor league levels, mostly AA and AAA and his worst ERA was AA at 2.57.   Overall he threw 135 minor league innings this year with a 2.07 ERA.   Then pitched 28 innings at a 1.59 ERA with the Twins including a couple high leverage starts when we really needed them.   Given that Pineda was gone and Gibson was just a ghost of himself I was fine with giving Dobnak the start and was actually a little disappointed that he wasn't given the chance to work himself out of the 3rd inning jam.    You don;t know how guys deal with pressure but you never will know if you don't expose them to it.   Littell was absolutely lights out in relief and then had his worst outing since his first appearance in the playoffs.   Many of these decisions were only bad in hindsight.  Severino only pitched 12 innings all year. at any level.   If Sano hits a grand slam you don't think that would have been 2nd guessed?   

[wabene]

The Twins have starters that have shown dominance and been able to dominate at times, but none you could classify as dominant per se. Seen what I did there? ☺️

[Major League Ready]

 

There may have been times when this FO deserved to be criticized for not doing enough, but to accuse them of doing nothing or being "all talk" is silly talk.

 

Like every FO, they're not immune from an occasional regrettable decision. But anyone who pays close attention to ALL of what has been going on would describe their efforts as proactive, even aggressive. Some may define "impact" differently than they do as they assess the offseason moves, and that's fine. For example, the Cron and Schoop decisions were dismissed by some as disappointing.

 

I understand some skepticism, but from where I sit, this FO has been both true to their wordy words and pretty good at swiftly improving things. I'm fairly optimistic.

 

Great post!  I would add that people need to be a bit more reflective of where we would be if the Twins would have done many of the deals that were promoted here.  For example, many were sure that signing the top FA relief pitchers was a no brainer.  There were 9 RPs that signed with a new team for $7M plus.  Britton resigned with NY which is a little different than a player switching teams because it’s nearly impossible to sign a player when he wants to sign with his old team and they are the highest revenue team in the league.

 

The RPs signing with new teams for 7M+ AAV received a total of $83M AAV and collectively they produced negative WAR.  Only Soria (.4) WAR and Ottavino (2.2 WAR) produced positive WAR.  If we are at all objective, signing the players the Yankees want is a very tall order.  Realistically we were vying for the other 8 and they were all very bad and we would have $20M+ less to spend next year had the team followed the path they are being criticized for not taking.

 

This is just one example.  Chris Archer was a popular target here.  That wasone of the worst moves of the last 20 years and would have been an absolute disaster.  JT Realmuto is great but we got the same production with giving up the considerable package necessary to get him.  Before Realmuto it was LuCroy. Some here included names like Kepler in the Realmuto trade.  Both moves would have been horrible long term.  Darvish … same story.  Johnny Cueto was touted by a few people as an absolute must move.  Sonny Gray got some love here the year two years ago when the Yankees got him.  He sucked.  And, on and on.  People should stop to think about how disastrous the moves promoted here would have been before they criticize the front offices for not operating as boldly as some fans insist upon.  It’s easy when you not accountable.

[howeda7]

 

 

Great post!  I would add that people need to be a bit more reflective of where we would be if the Twins would have done many of the deals that were promoted here.  For example, many were sure that signing the top FA relief pitchers was a no brainer.  There were 9 RPs that signed with a new team for $7M plus.  Britton resigned with NY which is a little different than a player switching teams because it’s nearly impossible to sign a player when he wants to sign with his old team and they are the highest revenue team in the league.

 

The RPs signing with new teams for 7M+ AAV received a total of $83M AAV and collectively they produced negative WAR.  Only Soria (.4) WAR and Ottavino (2.2 WAR) produced positive WAR.  If we are at all objective, signing the players the Yankees want is a very tall order.  Realistically we were vying for the other 8 and they were all very bad and we would have $20M+ less to spend next year had the team followed the path they are being criticized for not taking.

 

This is just one example.  Chris Archer was a popular target here.  That wasone of the worst moves of the last 20 years and would have been an absolute disaster.  JT Realmuto is great but we got the same production with giving up the considerable package necessary to get him.  Before Realmuto it was LuCroy. Some here included names like Kepler in the Realmuto trade.  Both moves would have been horrible long term.  Darvish … same story.  Johnny Cueto was touted by a few people as an absolute must move.  Sonny Gray got some love here the year two years ago when the Yankees got him.  He sucked.  And, on and on.  People should stop to think about how disastrous the moves promoted here would have been before they criticize the front offices for not operating as boldly as some fans insist upon.  It’s easy when you not accountable.

If Terry Ryan was on here he would like this post so hard. Often the best trades/signings are the ones you don't make. That said, if you want to make an omelet or ever beat the Yankees, you have to break some eggs.

[bird]

 

I have been watching Calvin Griffith, Terry Ryan and others since 1961.  Color me a skeptic.  This was the year to do something.  If action was taken and we still failed we could live with it.  No Buxton is not to much to give away.  Arms matter - they always have.  So does this article mean anything to me?  No.

 

I wait and if they act I will be happy, but praise does not come before action. 

 

 

You're squarely in the camp of "they didn't do enough", even though your language accuses them of doing nothing at all. Color ME a skeptic that you're gonna be happy "if they act". 

 

You know what would be nice is if we all, ahead of time, were forced to describe in fairly certain terms what actions would be acknowledged at all, and what actions would be "enough". That way, If one guy says nothing short of Cole and Wheeler and Odorizzi and Pineda is enough, cool. 

 

Going into this season, I personally felt they fell one high leverage reliever short, and I used Ottavino as the standard. I also thought they did exactly what they should have done on offense by filling every hole with a positive WAR type. The results in terms of wins exceeded my expectations by 15 games, and I give the FO partial credit for this.

 

I'm happy with the progress they made and trust their intent. I've been a fan since 1961 as a child, and don't really see any relevance between now and anything related to Calvin Griffith or Terry Ryan.

[mikelink45]

 

You're squarely in the camp of "they didn't do enough", even though your language accuses them of doing nothing at all. Color ME a skeptic that you're gonna be happy "if they act". 

 

You know what would be nice is if we all, ahead of time, were forced to describe in fairly certain terms what actions would be acknowledged at all, and what actions would be "enough". That way, If one guy says nothing short of Cole and Wheeler and Odorizzi and Pineda is enough, cool. 

 

Going into this season, I personally felt they fell one high leverage reliever short, and I used Ottavino as the standard. I also thought they did exactly what they should have done on offense by filling every hole with a positive WAR type. The results in terms of wins exceeded my expectations by 15 games, and I give the FO partial credit for this.

 

I'm happy with the progress they made and trust their intent. I've been a fan since 1961 as a child, and don't really see any relevance between now and anything related to Calvin Griffith or Terry Ryan.

I am happy to share this site with another old fan.  If you want I want I can tell you.  I want a #2 or #3 pitcher who we would feel pleased to put out in a crucial game.  I prefer a number one, but I am still tempered by the Twins not reaching for the stars.  I also want a relief pitcher who can go in and shut things down.  One of each put in to support the young players.  On offense I have no problem with what was done. And I hope we will continue to develop our young players and when our DH shows his age I hope we will bring in one more Cruz/Thome leader.

 

If you do not see the tendency to hesitate to go for the difference maker I cannot  change your mind with my ramblings, but I still need more from this FO.  I do not say that they are bad or even mediocre, I just am not ready to say they have done a great job.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

How are any of the following the fault of Falvine: 1) Pineda suspended; 2) Buck hurt and out for the last month and playoffs; 3) Gibson's really unfortunate illness, rendering him totally ineffective; 4) Kepler and Gonzales both out the last part of September leading up to the playoffs, thereby throwing off their timing and probably playing hurt; 5) Arraez spraining his ankle right before the playoffs; 6) Cron's thumb injury the last half of the season; 7) Rocco's first post season of decision making ?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

How are any of the following the fault of Falvine: 1) Pineda suspended; 2) Buck hurt and out for the last month and playoffs; 3) Gibson's really unfortunate illness, rendering him totally ineffective; 4) Kepler and Gonzales both out the last part of September leading up to the playoffs, thereby throwing off their timing and probably playing hurt; 5) Arraez spraining his ankle right before the playoffs; 6) Cron's thumb injury the last half of the season; 7) Rocco's first post season of decision making ?

Here's how I would answer that: 

 

1) Pineda never happened. He was very good, but he was cheating. So in my book, that's a wash at best. 

 

3) The team knew about Gibson's illness and let him pitch through. He was pitching well enough and only began to really slide after the deadline, unfortunately. 

 

7) Gone are the days when the manager sets the rotation and brings in the relievers without any input from the front office. Lining the rotation up Berrios/Dobnak/Odorizzi/Berrios/unknown had everyone's fingerprints on it. Duffey's struggles on zero days rest should have been data that the front office passed along to Rocco: Don't do it.

 

 

[yarnivek1972]

How are any of the following the fault of Falvine: 1) Pineda suspended; 2) Buck hurt and out for the last month and playoffs; 3) Gibson's really unfortunate illness, rendering him totally ineffective; 4) Kepler and Gonzales both out the last part of September leading up to the playoffs, thereby throwing off their timing and probably playing hurt; 5) Arraez spraining his ankle right before the playoffs; 6) Cron's thumb injury the last half of the season; 7) Rocco's first post season of decision making ?

Teams that win have contingency for losing starting pitchers that don’t involve using a guy that started the season in A ball starting game 2 of the playoffs.

[Mike Sixel]

Great post! I would add that people need to be a bit more reflective of where we would be if the Twins would have done many of the deals that were promoted here. For example, many were sure that signing the top FA relief pitchers was a no brainer. There were 9 RPs that signed with a new team for $7M plus. Britton resigned with NY which is a little different than a player switching teams because it’s nearly impossible to sign a player when he wants to sign with his old team and they are the highest revenue team in the league.

 

The RPs signing with new teams for 7M+ AAV received a total of $83M AAV and collectively they produced negative WAR. Only Soria (.4) WAR and Ottavino (2.2 WAR) produced positive WAR. If we are at all objective, signing the players the Yankees want is a very tall order. Realistically we were vying for the other 8 and they were all very bad and we would have $20M+ less to spend next year had the team followed the path they are being criticized for not taking.

 

This is just one example. Chris Archer was a popular target here. That wasone of the worst moves of the last 20 years and would have been an absolute disaster. JT Realmuto is great but we got the same production with giving up the considerable package necessary to get him. Before Realmuto it was LuCroy. Some here included names like Kepler in the Realmuto trade. Both moves would have been horrible long term. Darvish … same story. Johnny Cueto was touted by a few people as an absolute must move. Sonny Gray got some love here the year two years ago when the Yankees got him. He sucked. And, on and on. People should stop to think about how disastrous the moves promoted here would have been before they criticize the front offices for not operating as boldly as some fans insist upon. It’s easy when you not accountable.

Darvish was one of the best pitchers in the game this year..... The twins would have been better off this year, and in the future, if he was in Minnesota. They have one legit starter under contract, but sure, they've done everything right with pitching.....

[laloesch]

The rumor was Kirilloff or Lewis for Stroman.

 

https://sports.yahoo.com/twins-reportedly-targeted-marcus-stroman-before-trade-deadline-but-didnt-hear-back-201615870.html

 

Originally the rumors centered around prospects for Thor, too, with the Mets later bringing up Buxton's name, as I recall.

Kirilloff for Stroman? Hmmmm....

[akmanak]

I dont believe it until I see it. How many years have we been saying that they will actually increase payroll substantially? Hardly ever, I am extremely skeptical.

[Vanimal46]

Going into this season, I personally felt they fell one high leverage reliever short, and I used Ottavino as the standard. I also thought they did exactly what they should have done on offense by filling every hole with a positive WAR type. The results in terms of wins exceeded my expectations by 15 games, and I give the FO partial credit for this.

 

I'm happy with the progress they made and trust their intent. I've been a fan since 1961 as a child, and don't really see any relevance between now and anything related to Calvin Griffith or Terry Ryan.

I concur with your assessment, Bird. Falvintony did a good job constructing a lineup that thrived in the HR Derby "altered*" baseball era.

 

I'm buying in more to St. Falvintony's process... More often than not prospects called up made positive contributions right away! They made real-time adjustments with Sano and it paid off! They developed a home grown fireman in the bullpen!

 

Now it's time to make the next step and acquire a top of the rotation arm...

[Otto von Ballpark]

FWIW, the two names mentioned by Lavelle in the article are Bumgarner and Wheeler, in the context of, "will the Twins be willing to give up a draft pick to sign one of these guys?"

 

I think that's the level of "impact pitching" we're realistically talking about here, on the FA market anyway. We ain't getting Cole. (Well, maybe Hamels )

[Vanimal46]

FWIW, the two names mentioned by Lavelle in the article are Bumgarner and Wheeler, in the context of, "will the Twins be willing to give up a draft pick to sign one of these guys?"

 

I think that's the level of "impact pitching" we're realistically talking about here, on the FA market anyway. We ain't getting Cole. (Well, maybe Hamels )

Don't sleep on wiley veteran Rich Hill! 40 is the new 30 and that curve could work in the AL Central...

[ashbury]

Don't sleep on wiley veteran Rich Hill! 40 is the new 30 and that curve could work in the AL Central...

Get ready for complaints that he nibbles at the plate. Hill had 3.98 pitches per PA, compared to our Kyle Gibson at 3.90.