Front Page: Twins ALDS Game 2 Recap: Nothing Works, Twins Lose 12th Straight To Yankees

[akmanak]

Same old garbage. Twins obviously fold under any pressure in the playoffs. Yet again they looked completely lost.

[theBOMisthebomb]

Serious question: have we all given up on this team already?

 

There's still hope the Twins can nab a game at home on Monday, you know.

 

Oh yeah, these first two games have been a gut punch. Couldn't have gone worse, really. Frustrating. But they just need to win 3 straight. One game at a time. If they can take a game on Monday, this series becomes interesting again.

 

But remember that double-header sweep in Cleveland? We need that mojo back. Is it too late?

From a logical standpoint, this 5 game series is where it should be after 2 games. The Yankees held serve at home for 2 games, as they should. Now, the Twins have to return the favor and answer with 2 victories at Target Field. Then, it's a winner take all anything goes crapshoot for game 5. That's my belief in this team right now, that they will force a game 5. The Bomba Squad has been special all season and I won't back down from the claim they have some magic left in them. I still have the delusion they can pull off the remarkable comeback against the Yankees and storm off with a head of steam against the Astros in the ALCS.

[AlwaysinModeration]

ATTENTION downtrodden Twins Daily regulars!

 

I’m leaving the country.

 

I didn’t think it would have to come to this, but it has. For Monday’s game, I will literally be on an airplane leaving the United States. I won’t get back into the country until the series is over. It’s a work trip. You are welcome. You are welcome in advance for the change in the Twin’s fortunes, and you are welcome for the thrilling come-from-behind/oblivion series win. It’s a sacrifice of great proportion on my part, and frankly one that I am not that happy to make, this being the Twins first division title in ten years, but what has to be done, has to done.

 

Baseball history is full of long-suffering fandoms, unbreakable curses, and seemingly insurmountable odds. The long suffering ends, the curses get broken, and the odds are overcome. There is no clock in baseball. Games don’t end until the 27th out is recorded. Series aren’t over until one team closes out the final victory.

 

I refer you to the long history between the Red Sox and Yankees leading up to the ninth inning of Game 4 of the 2004 ALCS, when unanimously elected Hall of Famer Mariano Rivera had the lead. For a more recent example, I note the Chicago Cubs’ franchise history and century of being the (real) lovable losers. We don’t even need to go back further than Tuesday night, when the Nats, who hadn’t won a post-season series of any kind since moving to DC from Montreal, trailed the Brewers with Josh Hader on the mound.

 

Remember when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? It’s always darkest before the dawn.

[by jiminy]

I agree that to be down to games without getting your best pitcher off the bench is troubling. Was there a more important time in the series than bases loaded in the third? Why not use Rogers then? To save him for a potential save station makes no sense. That inning cost them the game and probably the series. Rogers was their best chance of getting out of that jam.

[by jiminy]

Two games, not to games

[Platoon]

The Yankees live in that environment all year long. There seems far more pressure there than occurs in other places, such as Target Tield. Yankees fans expect to get to the playoffs every year. Twins fans hope to. There is a difference.

 

I assume fly ball v ground ball rate was at the heart of the Twins inexplicable decision to start a Dobnak in that high pressure venue. But the single biggest difference overall was plate discipline. Berrios lives off that little breaking ball sliding off the outside corner. I think it was Garver who said they like to start that pitch as a strike and let them chase, but they didn't. Nor did they chase Dobnaks low stuff. And when a sinker ball pitcher has to bring it up, it never ends up well.

 

The Twins somewhat faced the same situation. But they did not lay off the stuff off the plate. While they notoriously feasted on FB all year, they never forced the Yankees to throw them any. Just kept swinging. Sano was the most visible of the bunch, but not at all alone in that regard.

 

The strike zone didn't cost the Twins either game. There were pitches missed for both teams. When fans call for Robo umps, and still complain when a pitch is obviously out of the box, it tells me Robo umps won't stop the whining at all.

 

If you have questionable pitching, and surround it with questionable glove work nothing good will come of it. Every play is magnified, and every out is precious.

 

Remarkably I can see a way for the Twins to get back to NY. It's slim, Ordorizzi would have to become Big Jake. (Google it) Berrios would have to throw at least seven innings on short rest. And Severino would have to misplace his talent. While I wont take bets it's doable.

 

[Mr. Brooks]

From a logical standpoint, this 5 game series is where it should be after 2 games. The Yankees held serve at home for 2 games, as they should. Now, the Twins have to return the favor and answer with 2 victories at Target Field. Then, it's a winner take all anything goes crapshoot for game 5. That's my belief in this team right now, that they will force a game 5. The Bomba Squad has been special all season and I won't back down from the claim they have some magic left in them. I still have the delusion they can pull off the remarkable comeback against the Yankees and storm off with a head of steam against the Astros in the ALCS.

The Twins are significantly better on the road than at home.

They needed to split the first 2 to have any shot.

[Mr. Brooks]

The Yankees live in that environment all year long. There seems far more pressure there than occurs in other places, such as Target Tield. Yankees fans expect to get to the playoffs every year. Twins fans hope to. There is a difference. I assume fly ball v ground ball rate was at the heart of the Twins inexplicable decision to start a Dobnak in that high pressure venue. But the single biggest difference overall was plate discipline. Berrios lives off that little breaking ball sliding off the outside corner. I think it was Garver who said they like to start that pitch as a strike and let them chase, but they didn't. Nor did they chase Dobnaks low stuff. And when a sinker ball pitcher has to bring it up, it never ends up well. The Twins somewhat faced the same situation. But they did not lay off the stuff off the plate. While they notoriously feasted on FB all year, they never forced the Yankees to throw them any. Just kept swinging. Sano was the most visible of the bunch, but not at all alone in that regard.The strike zone didn't cost the Twins either game. There were pitches missed for both teams. When fans call for Robo umps, and still complain when a pitch is obviously out of the box, it tells me Robo umps won't stop the whining at all. If you have questionable pitching, and surround it with questionable glove work nothing good will come of it. Every play is magnified, and every out is precious. Remarkably I can see a way for the Twins to get back to NY. It's slim, Ordorizzi would have to become Big Jake. (Google it) Berrios would have to throw at least seven innings on short rest. And Severino would have to misplace his talent. While I wont take bets it's doable.

It blows my mind that Garver and the pitchers seem surprised that the strategy of trying to get them to chase those isn't working.

How are they this unprepared for their opponent? Laying off those pitches has been the Yankees MO for as long as Cashman has been in charge. It's why Yankees games take 4 hours, they don't swing at junk. How are they just now realizing that?

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The Yankees live in that environment all year long. There seems far more pressure there than occurs in other places, such as Target Tield. Yankees fans expect to get to the playoffs every year. Twins fans hope to. There is a difference.

 

I assume fly ball v ground ball rate was at the heart of the Twins inexplicable decision to start a Dobnak in that high pressure venue. But the single biggest difference overall was plate discipline. Berrios lives off that little breaking ball sliding off the outside corner. I think it was Garver who said they like to start that pitch as a strike and let them chase, but they didn't. Nor did they chase Dobnaks low stuff. And when a sinker ball pitcher has to bring it up, it never ends up well.

 

The Twins somewhat faced the same situation. But they did not lay off the stuff off the plate. While they notoriously feasted on FB all year, they never forced the Yankees to throw them any. Just kept swinging. Sano was the most visible of the bunch, but not at all alone in that regard.

 

The strike zone didn't cost the Twins either game. There were pitches missed for both teams. When fans call for Robo umps, and still complain when a pitch is obviously out of the box, it tells me Robo umps won't stop the whining at all.

 

If you have questionable pitching, and surround it with questionable glove work nothing good will come of it. Every play is magnified, and every out is precious.

 

Remarkably I can see a way for the Twins to get back to NY. It's slim, Ordorizzi would have to become Big Jake. (Google it) Berrios would have to throw at least seven innings on short rest. And Severino would have to misplace his talent. While I wont take bets it's doable.

And then when the Twins get back to NY for game five, we turn to... Dobnak?

 

It unfortunately looks like the Twins out-thought themselves this series, or were way too overconfident behind the scenes. Or something. They were certainly “out-analyticed” up in the front office.

[wsnydes]

 

It blows my mind that Garver and the pitchers seem surprised that the strategy of trying to get them to chase those isn't working.
How are they this unprepared for their opponent? Laying off those pitches has been the Yankees MO for as long as Cashman has been in charge. It's why Yankees games take 4 hours, they don't swing at junk. How are they just now realizing that?

I'd say that it's more about the pitcher's inability to get guys out without relying on hitters chasing than it is surprise.

 

They Yankees, and other legitimate contenders, have lineups full of guys that simply don't chase and don't get themselves out very often. They wear out opposing pitching staffs. That's how they have to win in the regular season and that's the recipe for success in the postseason. That's also not a thing the Twins have done a good job of all year on either side of the ball. They can be free swingers in the AL Central and get away with it. They can throw stuff in the opposite batters box and get away with it in the AL Central. 

 

In my opinion, level of season-long competition plays a huge role in preparing a team for the playoffs. The AL Central has been bad for most if not all of its existence. That's not the end all since there have been WS winners that have come out of the Central, but they're more of the exception in my opinion. This team was built to beat up on the AL Central, not to be a true contender. There are plenty of people on these boards that have been saying that all year. It sucks, but that's the unfortunate reality.

[stringer bell]

OK. This series isn’t over. The Twins played and pitched two bad games in a row. They have on occasion put together three “A” games and if they do, they have a chance.

 

I think the 10% number quoted above is about right. I also think that it is far more likely to see a Yankee sweep than anything else, but a win on Monday just might change everything.

 

This has been the most resilient team I’ve ever seen. I won’t give up on them until the final out.

[LewFordLives]

Here's the difference between the Twins and the Yankees. To the Yankees and their fans, anything less than the world series is considered a failure, whereas most Twins players and fans appear content with a participation certificate. I'm sorry but it's true.

 

It's not about talent. Position for position the Twins have just as much talent as the Yankees. Yes the Twins have some issues with their pitching, but so do the Yankees. This Yankees team was not on par with the the dynasty in the late 90's.

 

Look no further than Saturdays game. After Berrios got pulled after a less than stellar outing everyone was hugging and smiling and patting him on the back as if he had pitched a 2 hit complete game shutout. Until the attitude and expectations of this organization change from the top down we will continue to witness playoff futility.

[Platoon]

And then when the Twins get back to NY for game five, we turn to... Dobnak?

It unfortunately looks like the Twins out-thought themselves this series, or were way too overconfident behind the scenes. Or something. They were certainly “out-analyticed” up in the front office.

Speaking of out analyzed? This WAPO piece is semi snarky, but addresses that issue.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/mlb/a-former-uber-driver-drew-an-alds-start-in-yankee-stadium-and-the-twins-got-lost/2019/10/05/4556b8e8-e632-11e9-b403-f738899982d2_story.html

[Mr. Brooks]

I'd say that it's more about the pitcher's inability to get guys out without relying on hitters chasing than it is surprise.

 

 

Garver and the pitchers have been quoted after both games saying that this was their strategy but that the Yankees haven't cooperated.

 

Cody Stashak: “These guys, they weren’t biting at anything. They weren’t chasing, they’re just sitting on strikes.”

 

Mitch Garver: “We were trying to get his breaking ball to start [as] a strike, and early on they weren’t swinging too much,” said catcher Mitch Garver. “Credit to them for taking good at-bats.”

[bighat]

 

Judging from the reactions of Frank Thomas and John Smoltz, I get the real sense that a lot of the TV broadcasters are a bit frustrated, maybe disappointed, in the Twins for getting destroyed by the Yankees. I think the expectation for TV was that this would be a very exciting series. It has been, by far, the most dull series in the post-season. 

 

Bingo. Every baseball fan outside of New York City has been pulling for the Twins to be this year's story.

 

This was the equivalent to the dreaded 5 seed vs. 12 seed matchup in the NCAA tournament. Everyone - not just Twins fans - wanted to see Minnesota stick it to the Yankees. This was the upset everyone wanted to see happen. Even New York media outlets were saying this would be a knock-down, drag-out series.

 

The Twins have disappointed their own fans terribly. They've also drawn facepalms and eye rolls from baseball fans all over the country.

 

This has truly been an embarrassment on a national stage. If the Twins get swept, they should be ashamed of themselves and rightfully so.

[Devereaux]

Bad postseason baseball is better than no postseason baseball. Got me to hang out with my nursing home dad two days in a row.

[Devereaux]

My daughter - two of my three daughters - has a Yankees fan boyfriend who is very gently giving me business via text. I wrote that I always keep my expectations low because I have lived through many seasons. It's true, and it helps, but then I started to think: Yankees fans don't necessarily have to understand this phenomenon.

[pierre75275]

If I had tickets to Monday's game I would be scalping them for whatever I could. I hate the yankees way to much to watch them clinch. Its just not worth it.

[twinsnorth49]

Confidence is a helluva drug

Yeah, but it’s more than just that.

[pierre75275]

At this point, there is an excellent chance that The best Twins pitcher, Taylor Rogers wont even pitch in the series

[Vanimal46]

Pitching wins in the playoffs. You need quality starting pitching. No surprise that in the playoffs so far, all but one winning team had their starter pitch 5 innings, with about half of them going 6+. The only exception is James Paxton going 4.2 IP against the Twins.

 

Hopefully this is a lesson learned that you can't BOMBA your way through a playoff series with suspect pitching.

[rv78]

We can all talk about how Rocco should have used Rogers instead of Duffey. And in retrospect that might be true, we'll never know, but Duffey has been lights out the second half of the season.

Do you use your pitchers the same way in the playoffs as you did in the regular season....no, but when your starter can't make it past the 3rd inning the bullpen isn't the problem. If they don't acquire at least 2 very good STARTING pitchers for next season nothing will change.

[DannySD]

Imagine how different this series would have been if our game 1 and 2 starters were Bumgarner and Pineda. Having veteran guys like that throwing well makes hitters more patient, moves Odorizzi and Berrios to games 3 and 4, and just the best bullpen arms can be used. 

[wsnydes]

Garver and the pitchers have been quoted after both games saying that this was their strategy but that the Yankees haven't cooperated.

 

Cody Stashak: “These guys, they weren’t biting at anything. They weren’t chasing, they’re just sitting on strikes.”

 

Mitch Garver: “We were trying to get his breaking ball to start [as] a strike, and early on they weren’t swinging too much,” said catcher Mitch Garver. “Credit to them for taking good at-bats.”

Right, but that strategy is based on the fact that none of the pitchers have the ability to get guys out within the zone. They know they'll get pounded if they stay in the zone. I think they were hoping to take advantage of the postseason adrenaline to override their discipline.

 

I'm largely agreeing with you. I don't think it's a surprise at all. I think it's a bad strategy that is based on the inability to get guys out without them chasing. The Yankees are far too disciplined for that.

 

I may be conveying my thoughts poorly, but I am agreeing with you. It's a poor strategy whether they're surprised or not

Edited October 6, 2019 by wsnydes

[rdehring]

Had a family commitment in Wisconsin and didn't see yesterday's game.  Only got to watch a couple innings at Applebee's Friday, as Champps was full.  Still burned about MLB's tv policy.  Anyway, Monday is another day and hopefully, tv permitting, another game...it is available on FS1, isn't it?  

 

Don't know if I will be able to say that late Monday night.  If not, will look back on the most exciting baseball season I can remember.  Those late 50's years in Milwaukee may have been as or more exciting, but was a different time and are long gone from my memory.

 

So win or lose on Monday, or Tuesday, or Thursday,...Thanks Twins for one hell of a fun season.  No question the FO has some work to do this winter, but they have a fantastic base to build off of.  And how long is it until that wonderful winter day when "Pitchers and Catchers report?"

[Number3]

I kept saying before this DS even started; attack the strike zone, attack the strike zone. Evidently the Twins didn't read my posts. I have watched a total of 2 pitches and when I saw "Dobnack" " nibbling around the  edges I switched to football. The handwriting was on the wall.

[lukeduke1980]

The unbalanced schedule will continue to elevate one team from the Central every year and properly expose them, less Cleveland of recent years. Many wins against 3 terrible division opponents in their empty stadiums. Come playoff time our Central champs receive culture shock of The Stadium and are exposed to be the 84 win team they would probably be with a balanced schedule.

[laloesch]

They would have lost to Houston.

 

Lost? LOL. This team would have been embarrased by Houston which arguably has 3 aces in Verlander, Cole, Geinke. Until this franchise is willing to spend big on good starting pitching they will have to be satisfied with AL Central titles every 10 or so years. Simple as that. You have to have good starting pitching (capt. obvious) to win playoff series let alone the big one and the Twins don't even have three solid starters they can march out there against the Yanks.

 

I enjoyed the regular season but everyone knew this was the likely result (AGAIN) without significant starting pitching upgrades. It was forseable.

 

I think i saw a stat on ESPN that Minnesota's record of playoff losses to the Yankees is a record for all professional sports leagues (NBA, NFL, MLB, etc.). Pretty embarrasing to not be able to managed just one win.

Edited October 6, 2019 by laloesch

[twinsnorth49]

Garver and the pitchers have been quoted after both games saying that this was their strategy but that the Yankees haven't cooperated.

 

Cody Stashak: “These guys, they weren’t biting at anything. They weren’t chasing, they’re just sitting on strikes.”

 

Mitch Garver: “We were trying to get his breaking ball to start [as] a strike, and early on they weren’t swinging too much,” said catcher Mitch Garver. “Credit to them for taking good at-bats.”

Worse than that, they’re just sitting on strikes right in the middle of the zone, because Twins pitchers haven’t been able to work many other parts of it. Breaking balls are fine but you need to be able to get some over for strikes occasionally and be able to do it in the odd unfavourable count. They have done nothing to disrupt the rhythm of the Yankees hitters, instead relying on them chasing. The pitch execution plays a big part but I just don’t think the plan has been very solid. I’d like to see some data on their fastball and change up usage, frequency and location. I’d guess it’s been pretty pathetic.

 

I haven’t seen any indication that they have any idea how to attack this lineup.

[Mike Sixel]

Isn't Odorizzi still on this team?

Starting a guy who was driving an Uber last year, in a must win game in Yankee Stadium was preposterous.

Once again, saving players for situations that may never arise. I don't get it. Odorizzi doesn't even get a start until the series is, for all intents and purposes, over.

So start Dobnak in game three? That's the same thing. I really don't know what you actually wanted different.