Front Page: Twins ALDS Game 1 Recap: Bad Defense, Questionable Management Leads to Loss

[Mike Sixel]

I don't agree.

Putting Gibson into a still winnable game was waiving the white flag.

He was wrong that it wasn't important to the Twins, guess I didn't make that clear. I'm indifferent to the Gibson decision one way or the other. I don't do it, but I get the theory.

[USAFChief]

I don't agree.

Putting Gibson into a still winnable game was waiving the white flag.

once Gibson is named to the roster, he's subject to use. There's a reason they took 12 pitchers, they're all needed. And at least Romo, May, and Rogers haven't thrown a pitch in a game we lost.

[Mr. Brooks]

He was wrong that it wasn't important to the Twins, guess I didn't make that clear. I'm indifferent to the Gibson decision one way or the other. I don't do it, but I get the theory.

And I'm saying that if it's just as important to them, they don't put Gibson into a still winnable game.

He has nothing since he came back, nothing.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I think some people are being too hard on Berrios. It’s true he wasn’t locating his breaking ball, but he should have gotten some plays made behind him, and been given a chance to pitch deeper into the game.

 

People shouldn’t expect that lineups like the Yankees and Astros will be mowed down 1-2-3, inning after inning, game after game.

 

Maybe a guy like Dobnak can do it for a few innings tonight. The Yankees probably don’t have “a book” on him like they do Berrios or Odorizzi.

[Platoon]

Rocco deserves Manager Of The Year consideration for bringing this pitching staff to 101 wins. His strategies worked in the regular season, shielding the weak spots except against weak opposition, when the strong opposition also is feeling their way through to an extent, but in the post-season he just doesn't have the horses to compete.

 

That's my takeaway from the game. In an era when no one pitches complete games, you have to keep bringing in new arms, and with this staff it's Russian roulette - eventually you reach a chamber with a projectile and propellant, and we have several loaded chambers among our 12.

I sort of agree, which is why I gave it one of my much desired "likes". . But using your Russian Roulette analogy, I don't think the goal of RR is to purposely put the hammer on a loaded shell. It tends to shorten the game significantly. Rocco missed the call on Berrios and Littlel. Being short handed, he should have rolled the dice with Berrios and hoped to make the 6th in one piece. I will add though this observation: After watching the Twins play defense all year, who can blame a pitcher for not throwing the ball across the plate! It's not just the called errors, it's just simply horrid glove work, game after game. All over the field.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

The Yankees swung through Berrios' low pitches in the first inning and then laid off them the rest of his outing. He only threw his offspeed stuff low and well out of the zone and lived off his fastball.

 

He didn't adjust. Combined with the defensive errors, that's what lost the game.

 

yeah, I'm not sure about the "questionable decisions" part of this... they brought these guys... got to find out who you can use eventually. Littell has been pretty good for us out of the pen this season. There's no way of knowing he'd be that amped up to not be able to hit the zone... same for Stashak.. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

What a bummer but hey we don't have to wait too long for the next tilt. If Dobnak accomplishes the unaccomplishable how sweet would that be?

A couple of points. One why is Schoop on the playoff roster if your not starting him against a lefty? Injury insurance for Arraez? We could all see that Luis is not 100% so even more reason to start Schoop and give him one more day to heal. Schoop would have made those plays.

There are many other second guesses but what's the point?

Moving forward here is a quote from Littel; “I didn’t trust my stuff,” Littell said. “It’s a good lineup, and they took good pitches. It made me think I had to make perfect pitches.” we all knew this going in. The perfect pitch mindset does not work. Fire away, you either love by the sword or die by it.

Was going to edit this but yo I'm just going to trust my stuff.

Love it!

 

You might issue some free passes, but I think you’ll escape in good shape.

[jorgenswest]

All games are still winnable. This one had the Yankees at 93.7% win expectancy at the time Gibson entered. If today was an off day I am taking my chances on the Twins side of that percent. There is a game today and relievers in general do not do as well on 0 days rest. That certainly is true for the Twins relievers and their 5.38 ERA on no rest.

[twins_89]

 

Based on what? Stashak was effective this year...

The Twins can't only pitch their top two two to three RPs all series.

 

Stashak is a rookie with questionable stuff who has pitched a total of 25 major league innings. It seems pretty clear to me he was not the guy you want on the mound in a 1 run playoff game.

Edited October 5, 2019 by twins_89

[Mike Sixel]

Stashak is a rookie with questionable stuff who has pitched a total of 25 major league innings. It seems pretty clear to me he was not the guy you want on the mound in a 1 run playoff game.

By that logic, no Littel or Gaterol either. Clearly not Gibson, or Berrios, or Dobnak either there. You don't bring in Romo or Rogers there. You have five innings, how do you get five innings without using any of this pitchers yesterday? And then have anyone you are willing to pitch today, since you won't use rookies today either, if the game is close.

 

Those guys are on the roster. What would you like Rocco to do? Not use four of the eight RPs at all?

[Thebigalguy]

The good news is that it's a best-of-five series and not a one-off wild card game. Baldelli is a rookie manager and it showed. Arraez shouldn't be on the field with his ankle except as a PH. Littell? Stashek? When he put Gibson in, with his ulcerative colitis, it was clear Baldelli had thrown in the towel for Game One. In that case, why waste Graterol? 

 

Suppose we pretend Baldelli knows what he's doing and that after Game One we have the Yankees exactly where we want them? That would mean he trotted out the lesser relievers so that he can sit them the rest of the series, having honorably given them their shot. That being the case, today we'll see a different team destroy Boone's Savages with Bomba-time efficiency and bombs-away bases-loaded mayhem. It's going to be a game for the ages.

 

Nah. Baldelli's a rookie. It showed. The team is confident and will regroup. I think Game Two tells the tale. Down 2-0, they won't make it back to New York. Tied 1-1, they have a shot. I'll be there, windblown and hoarse, with shrimp and salmon and baguettes to butter. The wine will be a Malbec, the beer an amber ale with some IPA for aficionados. We'll pound the table, but no homer hankies. If we have to cry, we'll cry into our beer. 

[Riverbrian]

If I were to guess. I'm not in the room so it is a guess. 

 

My theory... I believe the front office and Rocco put together a plan to start Dobnak. But, since they don't totally trust Dobnak... (they shouldn't after only 28 innings and rising out of nowhere from Low A). They probably had a condition that Dobnak would require full support from the bullpen in order to start game 2. In other words... plan for a short Dobnak start. 

 

Meaning the plan to start Dobnak Game two is intact if he doesn't have to burn the bullpen Game One. If they were to burn the bullpen out in Game One...  They would have to then  name Odorizzi the Game Two starter. With a hope that Odorizzi can go more innings than they will allow Dobnak to throw. 

 

This desire to stick with this plan, led to using the very back end of the bullpen with a one run deficit instead of getting another inning out of Duffey, then turning to Rogers, Romo or May. 

 

Stashak has been decent this year but he has no high leverage appearances. He's Mike Morin... decent numbers... not trusted in high leverage. And here he is with the ball in hand... making his first high leverage appearance because they want to save the bullpen for Dobnak... who they don't trust. 

 

They go they someone they don't trust during the regular season (Stashak)... to protect against their concerns about going with a guy that they didn't trust during the regular season(Dobnak). 

 

 

IT'S OCTOBER!!!

 

You go with your guys now. The ones you trust and have rewarded that trust. 

 

The Nats are going to use their starters and toe dip into the bullpen. Now... Everybody can rest when the playoffs are over. 

 

You don't save arms for tomorrow because there may not be a tomorrow.  A 1 run deficit is not impossible to make up, you don't throw the back end of the bullpen. This team hit 307 home runs... they can find the fence. 

 

But if you allow that lead to stretch in the middle innings... You need someone to hang zeroes. Good luck getting 3 runs back against Chapman, Britton, Ottovino and Crew. 

 

You were choosy all year on who you threw. during the regular season.

 

It's the playoffs... now is the time to be choosy... Not back then.  

 

You shouldn't be choosy during the regular season so you can choose better right now. The got it backwards. 

 

 

 

 

 

[wavedog]

Berrios kind of pitched like he has the last 2 months - so I thought he did OK - he battled and the wheels didn't fall off for him.  With better defense it would have been pretty good.   Personally I would have started him at home in game 3 though.   I was surprised as Stashak in the 6th 0ne run behind.  I was expecting May for the 6th, Romo for the 7th and then Rogers for the 8th and 9th.   When Gibson came in for the 7th all I had hope for was a miracle - but unfortunately he looked just like he has looked the past few outings and turned the game into an unwatchable experience.   Also Rosario and Cron have not been good the past couple of weeks either so they are continuing their trends.  Best that can be said is today is a new day - start at 0-0 .  However the batting and hitting approach has to get better if we want different results.   

[Kelly Vance]

 

It hit his glove. I saw Justin Turner make that play tonight (or was it yesterday). So add him to Arenado. I have seen lots of players make that play. I still remember my little league coach.... if it hits your glove, you should catch it. It was still a play that could have been made. Was it harder? Yes. Did it hit his glove? Yes. Are heroes made in the post season, with plays like that? Yes.

It hit his glove only because he had to dive to his right.  C'mon man, be fair.  If he makes that play its a top 10 highlight reel play. You sound like it was a routine grounder  and he pulled a Buckner. 

[Kelly Vance]

 

If I were to guess. I'm not in the room so it is a guess. 

 

My theory... I believe the front office and Rocco put together a plan to start Dobnak. But, since they don't totally trust Dobnak... (they shouldn't after only 28 innings and rising out of nowhere from Low A). They probably had a condition that Dobnak would require full support from the bullpen in order to start game 2. In other words... plan for a short Dobnak start. 

 

Meaning the plan to start Dobnak Game two is intact if he doesn't have to burn the bullpen Game One. If they were to burn the bullpen out in Game One...  They would have to then  name Odorizzi the Game Two starter. With a hope that Odorizzi can go more innings than they will allow Dobnak to throw. 

 

This desire to stick with this plan, led to using the very back end of the bullpen with a one run deficit instead of getting another inning out of Duffey, then turning to Rogers, Romo or May. 

 

Stashak has been decent this year but he has no high leverage appearances. He's Mike Morin... decent numbers... not trusted in high leverage. And here he is with the ball in hand... making his first high leverage appearance because they want to save the bullpen for Dobnak... who they don't trust. 

 

They go they someone they don't trust during the regular season (Stashak)... to protect against their concerns about going with a guy that they didn't trust during the regular season(Dobnak). 

 

 

IT'S OCTOBER!!!

 

You go with your guys now. The ones you trust and have rewarded that trust. 

 

The Nats are going to use their starters and toe dip into the bullpen. Now... Everybody can rest when the playoffs are over. 

 

You don't save arms for tomorrow because there may not be a tomorrow.  A 1 run deficit is not impossible to make up, you don't throw the back end of the bullpen. This team hit 307 home runs... they can find the fence. 

 

But if you allow that lead to stretch in the middle innings... You need someone to hang zeroes. Good luck getting 3 runs back against Chapman, Britton, Ottovino and Crew. 

 

You were choosy all year on who you threw. during the regular season.

 

It's the playoffs... now is the time to be choosy... Not back then.  

 

You shouldn't be choosy during the regular season so you can choose better right now. The got it backwards. 

Yeah, you win the game you are in. Especially in October. 

[Trov]

I personally am not upset at Rocco choices, if it was game 5 yeah I would have issues, but not game one.  I was little surprised with Arraez starting and not Schoop, but do not feel that lost the game.  This game came down to 3 or 4 at bats, and they all did not go Twins way.  Rosario with 2 on 2 out, he lined out to center.  Both Torres at bats with bases loaded.  An error and ball off the glove created 5 runs.  Not saying Sano should have made the play, but if he had made the play on the double, and Cron does not let the ball right past him, that may have been 5 runs less, and Gibson never comes in to walk bases loaded and give up double.  

 

Mistakes are magnified in playoffs, but really game was a lot closer than final score would appear.  However, poor fielding and failing to get 2 out hits will not win games.

[Battle ur tail off]

 

If I were to guess. I'm not in the room so it is a guess. 

 

My theory... I believe the front office and Rocco put together a plan to start Dobnak. But, since they don't totally trust Dobnak... (they shouldn't after only 28 innings and rising out of nowhere from Low A). They probably had a condition that Dobnak would require full support from the bullpen in order to start game 2. In other words... plan for a short Dobnak start. 

 

Meaning the plan to start Dobnak Game two is intact if he doesn't have to burn the bullpen Game One. If they were to burn the bullpen out in Game One...  They would have to then  name Odorizzi the Game Two starter. With a hope that Odorizzi can go more innings than they will allow Dobnak to throw. 

 

This desire to stick with this plan, led to using the very back end of the bullpen with a one run deficit instead of getting another inning out of Duffey, then turning to Rogers, Romo or May. 

 

Stashak has been decent this year but he has no high leverage appearances. He's Mike Morin... decent numbers... not trusted in high leverage. And here he is with the ball in hand... making his first high leverage appearance because they want to save the bullpen for Dobnak... who they don't trust. 

 

They go they someone they don't trust during the regular season (Stashak)... to protect against their concerns about going with a guy that they didn't trust during the regular season(Dobnak). 

 

 

IT'S OCTOBER!!!

 

You go with your guys now. The ones you trust and have rewarded that trust. 

 

The Nats are going to use their starters and toe dip into the bullpen. Now... Everybody can rest when the playoffs are over. 

 

You don't save arms for tomorrow because there may not be a tomorrow.  A 1 run deficit is not impossible to make up, you don't throw the back end of the bullpen. This team hit 307 home runs... they can find the fence. 

 

But if you allow that lead to stretch in the middle innings... You need someone to hang zeroes. Good luck getting 3 runs back against Chapman, Britton, Ottovino and Crew. 

 

You were choosy all year on who you threw. during the regular season.

 

It's the playoffs... now is the time to be choosy... Not back then.  

 

You shouldn't be choosy during the regular season so you can choose better right now. The got it backwards. 

 

I'm with you on your post. 

 

As to the first part. If the plan was to keep the bullpen rested for a game 2 that Dobnak starts, then there is zero reason to pull Berrios at 88 pitches in the 4th inning when he just went 1-2-3. He wasn't just mowing them down, but he was battling and if it were me, if he's still effective and you have the mindset of a bullpen game the next day, then push him out to 110-120 pitches. 

 

 

 

[Battle ur tail off]

 

I personally am not upset at Rocco choices, if it was game 5 yeah I would have issues, but not game one.  I was little surprised with Arraez starting and not Schoop, but do not feel that lost the game.  This game came down to 3 or 4 at bats, and they all did not go Twins way.  Rosario with 2 on 2 out, he lined out to center.  Both Torres at bats with bases loaded.  An error and ball off the glove created 5 runs.  Not saying Sano should have made the play, but if he had made the play on the double, and Cron does not let the ball right past him, that may have been 5 runs less, and Gibson never comes in to walk bases loaded and give up double.  

 

Mistakes are magnified in playoffs, but really game was a lot closer than final score would appear.  However, poor fielding and failing to get 2 out hits will not win games.

 

Game 1 is just as important as a game 5. Especially to a team that has been manhandled every single time they face the Yankees. Getting beat like that isn't good for an organization that plays the way they do against the Yanks the way it is.

 

I hate to say it, but this series is probably over already. Yanks in 3. They played scared and backed off the first game and now NY smells blood in the water. It's typical, yet disappointing. 

 

I hope I am wrong. I really do. Just not really too confident starting Dobnak tonight. Who knows, maybe the guy surprises. That is basically all he has done this year is surprise people. Here's hoping...

[twins_89]

 

By that logic, no Littel or Gaterol either. Clearly not Gibson, or Berrios, or Dobnak either there. You don't bring in Romo or Rogers there. You have five innings, how do you get five innings without using any of this pitchers yesterday? And then have anyone you are willing to pitch today, since you won't use rookies today either, if the game is close.

Those guys are on the roster. What would you like Rocco to do? Not use four of the eight RPs at all?

 

You use the bottom of the bullpen when there there is a bigger separation in the score or when the top guys are unavailable. In last night's game, the score was within 1 run and the top bullpen arms were all well rested and available. I would much rather use my top bullets to keep a close game close than wait and hope the lesser arms can keep the game close (which they didn't and the top of the bullpen never got used). 

[BrianTrottier]

One thought on Arraez--I think having his bat in the lineup was the right idea. It's a bummer he didn't get to that popup, and the botched double play was on Cron, not Arraez. For those arguing that Schoop clearly should have started, he looked terrible in his pinch at bat, whiffing on three three high fastballs. So I'm not sure he would have offered any upgrade whatsoever over Arraez yesterday.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Mistakes are magnified in playoffs...

 

 

Would have been better if the Twins could have magnified LeMahieu’s dropped pop up. But yeah.

[Danchat]

 

One thought on Arraez--I think having his bat in the lineup was the right idea. It's a bummer he didn't get to that popup, and the botched double play was on Cron, not Arraez. For those arguing that Schoop clearly should have started, he looked terrible in his pinch at bat, whiffing on three three high fastballs. So I'm not sure he would have offered any upgrade whatsoever over Arraez yesterday.

Schoop has a .900+ OPS against lefties and on paper would be a good matchup against Paxton. Schoop's only useful against lefties, so if he's not starting against Paxton, I don't understand why he's on the roster.

[h2oface]

 

By that logic, no Littel or Gaterol either. Clearly not Gibson, or Berrios, or Dobnak either there. You don't bring in Romo or Rogers there. You have five innings, how do you get five innings without using any of this pitchers yesterday? And then have anyone you are willing to pitch today, since you won't use rookies today either, if the game is close.

Those guys are on the roster. What would you like Rocco to do? Not use four of the eight RPs at all?

 

Graterol and Littell still want their consonants back, but I suspect Rogers is happy that he isn't being call Rodgers, and is thankful for that.

 

I would have had a pitcher, Berrios, that had only given up 1 earned run, and had just had a 1-2-3 4th, come out for the 5th with only 88 pitches, and see what happened from there.

Edited October 5, 2019 by h2oface

[rv78]

Everyone knows the Twins pitching is suspect. Even with the improved bullpen down the stretch the playoffs will expose the weaknesses. The only way the Twins are going to win this year in the playoffs is if they out-slug the other teams. They won't out-pitch them. Berrios would be a #4 or #5 starter in Houston or on the Dodgers. The rest of the starters wouldn't even make their rosters. With a rusty Kepler and Cron and a free-swinging only give me 1 good at bat per game Rosario, the rest of the lineup has their work cut out for them.  

[KirbyDome89]

 

By that logic, no Littel or Gaterol either. Clearly not Gibson, or Berrios, or Dobnak either there. You don't bring in Romo or Rogers there. You have five innings, how do you get five innings without using any of this pitchers yesterday? And then have anyone you are willing to pitch today, since you won't use rookies today either, if the game is close.

Those guys are on the roster. What would you like Rocco to do? Not use four of the eight RPs at all?

I hear you on the lack of good arms in the pen. I've been pushing back against the "elite bullpen," narrative over the last week, so we agree there; Rocco is going to have to throw those guys, especially with a 12 man staff, and it's unfortunate for him. 

 

That said there's validity to the argument that picking and choosing when/where to throw them could've made a difference. If Berrios comes out for one more inning, Rogers throws 2, and Romo throws 1, they still have May and Duffey. There's no guarantee MN gets through that sequence unscathed but it's certainly preferable to Littell, Stashak, and Gibson. I do think Rocco deserves some heat for the way the game was managed. They seemed to be holding back, and in a 5 game series that make absolutely no sense. 

[ashbury]

I do think Rocco deserves some heat for the way the game was managed. They seemed to be holding back, and in a 5 game series that make absolutely no sense. 

It's Rope-A-Dope. The strategery is to let the Yankees punch to exhaustion. Then we'll have 'em!

[Mike Sixel]

I too would have brought out Berrios for one more inning. I don't know if it would have worked.....

[NorthwestTwinsFan]

 

I too would have brought out Berrios for one more inning. I don't know if it would have worked.....

I agree.   The only reason for not sending Berrios out for the 5th might be because they plan on using him in game 4.  Perhaps they will use an opener for 2 innings, have Berrios pitch 4 innings, then go to their top dogs in the bullpen for the last 3.   If that isn't then plan, then he should have gone back out for the 5th.

[Sam Morley]

 

As Sun Tsu once said, "If your enemy wants help with a selfie, be sure to cut off his head." 

 

Now, during the game I admittedly lost my cool, and there's really never a good time to do that. With regards to pitchers throwing their first pitch at the head of a Yankee batter, I hope nobody took this seriously. I meant it as a metaphor for the general practice of using violence in sports. 

 

That said, none other than Uncle Bert has often advocated "pitching inside," which assumes a certain risk of going a little too far inside. If guys like Stashak and Littell and Graterol and Duffey pitch inside to the Yankees, it might reduce the size of their smug grins as these hitters lean out over the plate, ready to extend their arms for yet another home run. 

 

On such occasions I ask nobody deliberately to harm a fellow baseball player. All I ask Twins pitchers is to consider what really good pitchers have done about such things in the past. What would Bob Gibson do? 

Bob Gibson would probably deliberately harm a fellow baseball player

[Sam Morley]

 

Everyone knows the Twins pitching is suspect. Even with the improved bullpen down the stretch the playoffs will expose the weaknesses. The only way the Twins are going to win this year in the playoffs is if they out-slug the other teams. They won't out-pitch them. Berrios would be a #4 or #5 starter in Houston or on the Dodgers. The rest of the starters wouldn't even make their rosters. With a rusty Kepler and Cron and a free-swinging only give me 1 good at bat per game Rosario, the rest of the lineup has their work cut out for them.  

THIS