Front Page: REPORT: Twins Investigating Giants Over Sam Dyson Trade

[Cody Christie]

Minnesota acquiring Sam Dyson at the trade deadline was one of the team’s highlight moves as the bullpen was conceived to be one of the team’s greatest weaknesses. He was in the middle of a terrific season with the Giants as he posted a 2.47 ERA and a 6.71 strikeout-to-walk ratio. He was brought into Minnesota to be one of the team’s late inning options, but that certainly hasn’t been the case.

 

Dyson has pitched like he is damaged goods since he put on a Twins uniform and now it seems likely that he will undergo shoulder surgery that will cost him parts of this season and next season.In 12 appearances with the Twins, he has struggled to a 7.15 ERA and a 1.33 strikeout-to-walk ratio with multiple trips to the disabled list. His most recent prognosis is that he will miss the rest of the season with shoulder surgery and there’s no guarantee that he will be ready for the start of next season. This would mean the Twins traded three-prospects for 12 appearances from Dyson

 

According to La Velle E. Neal III and the Star-Tribune, the Twins are investigating what San Francisco knew.

 

"According to sources with knowledge of the situation, the Twins have investigated whether San Francisco was aware that Dyson had a sore shoulder when the Giants sent him to the Twins in exchange for three minor leaguers, pitchers Prelander Berroa and Kei-Wei Teng and outfielder Jaylin Davis.

 

As standard procedure before trades are finalized, Dyson’s medical information was examined by the Twins. There were no red flags on the records they examined.

 

Dyson, however, informed the Twins shortly after joining them on July 31 that he has been pitching with some discomfort, dating to a July 15-17 series against Colorado. He said he’s had aches before and and pitched through them."

 

He goes on to say, “The situation led to discussions between the Twins and Giants to determine what they knew about Dyson's condition before the deal was made. The Twins have been unable to find any evidence that the Giants had knowledge of an injury.”

 

Back in 2016, the San Diego Padres and general manager A.J. Peller were penalized for a similar situation that changed some of the medical record process for big-league squads. Peller was suspended for 30 days after the league determined the Padres had hidden some health issues regarding left-handed pitcher Drew Pomeranz.

 

When Minnesota traded Jaylin Davis, Prelander Berroa, and Kai-Wei Teng, they had no idea this was the type of pitcher the club was getting in exchange. Dyson has one more year of team control, but it doesn’t seem likely for the Twins to pick-up his multi-million-dollar arbitration offer if he is going to miss a majority of the season while recovering from shoulder surgery.

 

Do you think MLB should step in and deal with this trade between the Twins and the Giants? Were the Giants trying to hide something? Leave a COMMENT and start the discussion.

 

Note from John Bonnes: a paragraph in this original story has been edited as it was not accurate.

 

Originally, the story stated:

 

There seems to be something fishy happening from the Giants perspective and the Twins are trying to prove the Giants were aware of Dyson’s injury prior to their deadline deal. According to La Velle E. Neal III and the Star-Tribune:

 

It is not reported that the Twins are “trying to prove” anything, though one is welcome to try and deduce that. The paragraph was changed to:

 

According to La Velle E. Neal III and the Star-Tribune, the Twins are investigating what San Francisco knew.

 

"According to sources with knowledge of the situation, the Twins have investigated whether San Francisco was aware that Dyson had a sore shoulder when the Giants sent him to the Twins in exchange for three minor leaguers, pitchers Prelander Berroa and Kei-Wei Teng and outfielder Jaylin Davis.

 

As standard procedure before trades are finalized, Dyson’s medical information was examined by the Twins. There were no red flags on the records they examined."

 

Click here to view the article

[h2oface]

Yes. Something is rotten here. Is it just Dyson? I mean, why wouldn't he bring it up? Did he just want to get out of San Fran for some reason? Something is fishy, if not rotten. Rotting fish, maybe.

[drock2190]

Weren't the Giants trying to compete at the deadline? If they knew Dyson wasn't going to contribute so they decided to flip him.

 

If it can be proven, the Twins should get 1 of their prospects back.

[Squirrel]

The article didn't say anything about 'the Twins investigating Giants'. You make that sound like there is an official ongoing investigation when the article you linked said this:

 

"The situation led to discussions between the Twins and Giants to determine what they knew about Dyson’s condition before the deal was made. The Twins have been unable to find any evidence that the Giants had knowledge of an injury.

 

So Dyson and the Twins are bracing for surgery — and the possibility that Dyson, who’s arbitration-eligible for next season, won’t return to the mound until the middle of the 2020 season."

 

So, how is this some major REPORT? It doesn't sound like there is anything more than they made inquiries and found nothing intentional on the Giants' part and are moving on.

[KirbyDome89]

“Dyson, however, informed the Twins shortly after joining them on July 31 that he has been pitching with some discomfort, dating to a July 15-17 series against Colorado. He said he’s had aches before and ad pitched through them.”

 

If Dyson sought treatment while with SF and it was omitted in his medical records the Twins have a case here. If he told the Giants staff about his soreness and that he was fine pitching through it as he had in the past, and treatment wasn't necessary, then the waters become murky. I suppose you could argue that morally the Giants are shady by not disclosing that Dyson had some discomfort but I'm not sure they're obligated to disclose that if Dyson himself isn't claiming any aliment. 

[Danchat]

It doesn't seem like the Giants are at fault, at least from what I've read. It sucks that this injury has developed when it did, but I'd just chalk it up to bad luck.

[Seth Stohs]

I think it would be pretty hard to find fault with the Giants on this one, or at least to prove anything. 

[yarnivek1972]

That this became public is going to have repercussions. It could make it harder for both teams to make trades in the future. If teams think the Giants are peddling damaged goods, teams might be reluctant to deal with them. In the same vein, if teams think the Twins are going to make a stink to deflect attention from the fact that they didn’t do their due diligence they may be reluctant to deal with Falvine.

[twinsnorth49]

Is this an actual story? Are the Twins looking for an investigation into the trade? 

 

I think they got screwed personally. 

[D.C Twins]

 

That this became public is going to have repercussions. It could make it harder for both teams to make trades in the future. If teams think the Giants are peddling damaged goods, teams might be reluctant to deal with them. In the same vein, if teams think the Twins are going to make a stink to deflect attention from the fact that they didn’t do their due diligence they may be reluctant to deal with Falvine.

 

This....This...and........oh yeah.....This

[Bandit34]

I'm going to give the front office a mulligan over this. Simply because they have done fantastic work putting this team together. They've made mistakes on Lynn and Dyson, but for the most part, they've been a solid front office. 

[CharlieDee]

Teams that are in the chase at the deadline, as the Giants were, don't usually trade away one of their better relievers for prospects. I know from reading posts from Giants fans that many were shocked to see Dyson traded....I think the Giants suspected something was amiss.

[ashbury]

the Twins are going to make a stink to deflect attention from the fact that they didn’t do their due diligence

In mid-season trades, the teams exchange medical reports. Trades aren't contingent on a medical exam, unless there is a known problem.

[Dantes929]

 

I'm going to give the front office a mulligan over this. Simply because they have done fantastic work putting this team together. They've made mistakes on Lynn and Dyson, but for the most part, they've been a solid front office. 

They have been  a bit lucky but Lynn and Dyson were actually two very good moves that were unlucky.   Dyson was going to immediately be one of our top relievers but for the injury.  Lynn was 11-8 with a 3.43 ERA the year before he got here and has a 15-11 and 3.75 ERA right now with the Rangers.   If by mistake you mean they should have kept him then yeah, he would look pretty good as our 3rd starter right now.

[John Bonnes]

Please note that I have added an update to the end of this story and detailed the changes to a specific paragraph that was not explicitly state in La Velle E. Neal's report. It might be a distinction without a difference, but it's important in situations like this to be as accurate as possible. 

[John Bonnes]

 

The article didn't say anything about 'the Twins investigating Giants'. You make that sound like there is an official ongoing investigation when the article you linked said this:

 

"The situation led to discussions between the Twins and Giants to determine what they knew about Dyson’s condition before the deal was made. The Twins have been unable to find any evidence that the Giants had knowledge of an injury.

 

So Dyson and the Twins are bracing for surgery — and the possibility that Dyson, who’s arbitration-eligible for next season, won’t return to the mound until the middle of the 2020 season."

 

So, how is this some major REPORT? It doesn't sound like there is anything more than they made inquiries and found nothing intentional on the Giants' part and are moving on.

 

Carol, to address some of your concerns, I clarified in the story what we know about the Twins investigation into this matter. I think it's worth pointing out though, that there is nothing in Neal's story that suggests the Twins are moving on. Maybe they are. But all that is being reported is that they have investigated and not found anything yet. 

[h2oface]

 

The article didn't say anything about 'the Twins investigating Giants'. You make that sound like there is an official ongoing investigation when the article you linked said this:

 

"The situation led to discussions between the Twins and Giants to determine what they knew about Dyson’s condition before the deal was made. The Twins have been unable to find any evidence that the Giants had knowledge of an injury.

 

So Dyson and the Twins are bracing for surgery — and the possibility that Dyson, who’s arbitration-eligible for next season, won’t return to the mound until the middle of the 2020 season."

 

So, how is this some major REPORT? It doesn't sound like there is anything more than they made inquiries and found nothing intentional on the Giants' part and are moving on.

 

If I am unable to find any evidence, that means I was looking for evidence, which I haven't found (yet, perhaps), which to me (and the Cambridge online dictionary), is a definition of investigation = "the act of examining something carefully, esp. to discover the truth about it."

[David HK]

I want Jaylin back, and we'll call it a wash.

[cjj td]

 

Weren't the Giants trying to compete at the deadline? If they knew Dyson wasn't going to contribute so they decided to flip him.

 

If it can be proven, the Twins should get 1 of their prospects back.

I think Wei Tang should be returned to the 36 chambers.   36 chambers has ALWAYS been my nickname for the Twins. 

[gunnarthor]

I'm sure the Giants knew about it and didn't write it down anywhere. 

[mikelink45]

It turned out to be a bad trade, but did we lose anyone who was going to make a difference for the Twins in the next two years?  

 

If I were the Twins I would simply go after SF paying Dyson's salary and close the books.

 

[scottz]

Seems like it should be pretty simple to ask Dyson, "did you tell the Giants your shoulder hurt? tell us everything about that conversation." If he says anything like "they said not to worry about it" or anything else that dissuaded him from making a big deal out of it, then you have something to take to MLB for a third party to make some sort of judgment.

 

That said, the judgment isn't going to be "let's give the Twins their prospects back." That's not happening unless what Dyson tells them is they gave him a series of cortisone shots and other medical treatments and scans and none of that appears in his files. And if I had to wager my house, I'd wager that's not what Dyson will say.

[AceWrigley]

If I'm the Twins, I'm discussing this with the League Office. If Rocco can detect that Odo is warming up a little weird and pulls him for precautionary reasons, how is it the Giants staff didn't have any idea Dyson was pitching for weeks with discomfort? I'm not buying it. I want compensation.

[rdehring]

I don't see any problem with what the Twins did, assuming their medical staff did review whatever the Giants forwarded to them.  When deals are made minutes before the deadline, a physical isn't practical.  None of us has seen those records and don't know what they say.

 

And the Giants also probably aren't at fault, unless there was knowledge he was more than aching and didn't include it in the reports.  

 

Don't know what the league does in situations like this.  Probably would be best if they could work something out between themselves and not get the league involved.  Should they return one of the pitching prospects, I would be happy.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

If I'm the Twins, I'm discussing this with the League Office. If Rocco can detect that Odo is warming up a little weird and pulls him for precautionary reasons, how is it the Giants staff didn't have any idea Dyson was pitching for weeks with discomfort? I'm not buying it. I want compensation.

Because what happened with Odorizzi is very rare? Because the Twins and Giants are different teams, with different staffs and cultures? Because Dyson and Odorizzi are different players, in different roles, and likely had different conditions that affected them in different ways? 

 

Seriously, we've seen TONS of players reveal injury only after a bad stretch of play. Why do we assume that Dyson must have reported soreness, or that the Giants must have detected it, during a stretch of 7 scoreless appearances?

[Otto von Ballpark]

This is all so silly. We *know* players play through things all the time without telling their teams. It drives us nuts sometimes when we hear about it after they struggle (although sometimes I suspect it's used as an excuse in those cases, rather than being a direct cause).

 

It seems especially likely that players might withhold a condition when it appears to have no impact on performance. Dyson said it first started bothering him after the all-star break in Colorado. His stats with the Giants, beginning with that Colorado series right up to the trade:

 

7 G, 7 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 1 BB, 7 K

 

How many MLB players would report a condition if those are the results they are getting while playing through it?

 

And what incentive would Dyson have to lie to cover for the Giants, then or now? Some of these accusations make zero sense.

 

That said, I understand if the Twins want to double-check the record, just to make sure -- player transactions are worth millions of dollars to them. But I'm doubtful they come up with anything meaningful, I'm highly doubtful that there was any shenanigans on the part of the Giants, and frankly it's not that big of a deal -- as good as his minor league season was, Davis didn't figure much into the Twins present or future plans.

[Mr. Brooks]

If I'm the Twins, I'm discussing this with the League Office. If Rocco can detect that Odo is warming up a little weird and pulls him for precautionary reasons, how is it the Giants staff didn't have any idea Dyson was pitching for weeks with discomfort? I'm not buying it. I want compensation.

Every player is playing with discomfort after about the third week of the season. That won't be nearly enough of a case for any compensation.

There'd need to be evidence that a medical procedure, or official diagnosis was omitted from his medical files.

It'd be absurd to expect teams to update a player's medical files everytime they are sore or uncomfortable.

[insagt1]

With Buxton's future always up in the air, Davis most certainly did figure into the Twins future, particularly the way his second half went. while he didn't do anything with his September call-up, thats no big deal. The guy was in AA half the year and wouldn't have come to AAA had it not been for injuries. He was slated to go back to AA, but then he started hitting (in much the same way Arraez did) making it impossible to send him back down. The kid is a huge talent. Giants thought so too. I watched him play for 41 games, mostly with mouth wide open in awe. We all felt he was going to be a good insurance policy against Buxton. (we also mused that the Twins have a history of letting good CF'ers go!)

 

Shenanigans with the Giants? No one will ever know. I have felt from the start that he was damaged goods, whether the Giants knew or not. The player knew. You don't pitch as poorly as he did when he got here if there wasn't something wrong. And if he looked like that while in SF, Twins wouldn't ever have given him a sniff. The way he pitched here was indicative of someone who had something wrong...and it didn't 'just' happen when he donned our jersey.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

This is all so silly. We *know* players play through things all the time without telling their teams. It drives us nuts sometimes when we hear about it after they struggle (although sometimes I suspect it's used as an excuse in those cases, rather than being a direct cause).

 

It seems especially likely that players might withhold a condition when it appears to have no impact on performance. Dyson said it first started bothering him after the all-star break in Colorado. His stats with the Giants, beginning with that Colorado series right up to the trade:

 

7 G, 7 IP, 2 H, 0 R, 1 BB, 7 K

 

How many MLB players would report a condition if those are the results they are getting while playing through it?

 

And what incentive would Dyson have to lie to cover for the Giants, then or now? Some of these accusations make zero sense.

 

That said, I understand if the Twins want to double-check the record, just to make sure -- player transactions are worth millions of dollars to them. But I'm doubtful they come up with anything meaningful, I'm highly doubtful that there was any shenanigans on the part of the Giants, and frankly it's not that big of a deal -- as good as his minor league season was, Davis didn't figure much into the Twins present or future plans.

 

Pretty much this. Dyson is a Twin now too. I guarantee you they already know what Dyson told them. About the only chance something happens is if he happened to have an Xray or MRI done that wasn't given to the Twins to evaluate... 

 

and like SpyCake, I highly doubt it... If that did happen, then this will take off, but this report is likely just them making sure nothing happened and doing what any team would do in that situation... nothing more nothing less. 

[mlhouse]

The Twins should ask for Kai-Wei Teng back.