Front Page: Should Eddie Rosario Be Benched for Not Hustling?

[Only Here in Negative]

Two weeks ago Eddie saved the Twins against the Red Sox with an insane throw to the plate.

 

Eddie Rosario has been one of the Twins hottest hitters, with three straight multi-hit games and a 1.007 OPS in the past ten games.

 

The Twins have been giving outfield at-bats to guys like Ryan Lamarre, Arraez, Wade, and Miller over the past two weeks.

 

Yeah, the Twins should definitely bench Eddie Rosario.

[SockNet]

 

As soon as Rosario starts his maneuver to round the bag (some 10-15 feet before reaching it) the play is now BEHIND him. That’s when he should be looking at the coach. But he doesn’t. He’s looking at right field the entire time until he passes the bag and then puts his head down. Like I said earlier, I doubt he ever saw the coach.

Agreed. But this is fundamentals, not hustle related which is my problem with the suggestion it be a reason for benching Rosario.

[Only Here in Negative]

To the all-out runner crowd:

 

Yes, we were all told to run all out in Little League. We were kids, they’re trying to teach you to hustle. But not all lessons from Little League are applicable to the majors, no matter how much we want to extrapolate from our own meager experience.

 

MLB players don’t tend to run all out on the bases all the time. It’s just not reasonable. They play 150 games a year, often with weeks between off days. They play in all kinds of weather and all kinds of field conditions. They’re nursing injuries and getting medical treatment constantly. So they pick their spots. They don’t spring to first on a ground ball to 2B in the 4th inning of a 5 – 3 game. They run hard but not all out. If they did that, they’d be more likely to get injured and miss time. They save it for moments where they think it will matter.

 

Eddie Rosario has dealt with lingering leg injuries all year. The games in question are not particularly important from a game theory perspective – the Twins are overwhelming favorites to win their division. And yet we’re talking about benching him without knowing anything about his health? Guys like Cruz and Sano fairly regularly run out ground balls at ½ to ¾ speed and don’t get much of a peep. I’ve seen Polanco and Kepler do the same. There’s just something about Eddie that is a lightning rod for hustle criticism and I’m not sure why. Maybe it’s because he makes some incredible hustle plays and gets people’s expectations up in a way other guys don’t? It’s very strange.

 

Keep playing Eddie. A hot Eddie Rosario is the batter I most want to see down 4-2 in the 8th with two guys on and a tough reliever coming in.

[USAFChief]

 

As soon as Rosario starts his maneuver to round the bag (some 10-15 feet before reaching it) the play is now BEHIND him. That’s when he should be looking at the coach. But he doesn’t. He’s looking at right field the entire time until he passes the bag and then puts his head down. Like I said earlier, I doubt he ever saw the coach.

Stretching a double into a triple is on the runner, not the third base coach, same as going first to third on a single. 

 

The decision to go for third is made before Rosario reaches second base, and is made by him as he judges the location of the ball and the outfielders. 

[Only Here in Negative]

 

I really don't understand the "he misread the ball" takes. Why is he trying to read anything?

 

Just hustle after you hit the ball. Buxton does it every time, It's not that hard. 

 

Buxton is also constantly on the DL. I love watching Buxton going all out but I imagine that many of the people dogging Rosario for not going all out all the time are also the ones asking Buxton to take it easy.

 

Also untrue that Buxton goes all out all the time. On clear doubles he too slows coming around first base and jogs into second. There just are less clear doubles for him :-)

[Bandit34]

 

To the all-out runner crowd:

 

Yes, we were all told to run all out in Little League. We were kids, they’re trying to teach you to hustle. But not all lessons from Little League are applicable to the majors, no matter how much we want to extrapolate from our own meager experience.

 

MLB players don’t tend to run all out on the bases all the time. It’s just not reasonable. They play 150 games a year, often with weeks between off days. They play in all kinds of weather and all kinds of field conditions. They’re nursing injuries and getting medical treatment constantly. So they pick their spots. They don’t spring to first on a ground ball to 2B in the 4th inning of a 5 – 3 game. They run hard but not all out. If they did that, they’d be more likely to get injured and miss time. They save it for moments where they think it will matter.

 

Eddie Rosario has dealt with lingering leg injuries all year. The games in question are not particularly important from a game theory perspective – the Twins are overwhelming favorites to win their division. And yet we’re talking about benching him without knowing anything about his health? Guys like Cruz and Sano fairly regularly run out ground balls at ½ to ¾ speed and don’t get much of a peep. I’ve seen Polanco and Kepler do the same. There’s just something about Eddie that is a lightning rod for hustle criticism and I’m not sure why. Maybe it’s because he makes some incredible hustle plays and gets people’s expectations up in a way other guys don’t? It’s very strange.

 

Keep playing Eddie. A hot Eddie Rosario is the batter I most want to see down 4-2 in the 8th with two guys on and a tough reliever coming in.

Pete Rose seemed to always give every play his best. And please don't tell me he was this super-athlete. He was an average sized ballplayer that had a passion for the game. When you're getting paid millions of dollars off the backs of hard-working folks that come to see you, I would expect total hustle on every play. That doesn't mean you should be running into walls full-speed, but you should be running as fast as you possibly can to each and every base. 

[Bandit34]

Getting paid millions of dollars a year is not reasonable either and yet they do. So is it unreasonable to expect full speed effort on every baserunning play? Probably. But you ought to do some very unreasonable things when you get paid unreasonable money. 

[USAFChief]

 

Buxton is also constantly on the DL. I love watching Buxton going all out but I imagine that many of the people dogging Rosario for not going all out all the time are also the ones asking Buxton to take it easy.

 

Also untrue that Buxton goes all out all the time. On clear doubles he too slows coming around first base and jogs into second. There just are less clear doubles for him :-)

Slowing down after making the decision not to go to third is quite different than not running out of the box. 

 

And dragging injury into this is completely off base. 

 

[SockNet]

 

I'm no   expert here, but if I were coaching my Little League team again, I would tell my players that once they hit the ball to run as fast as they can around the bases until they see the ball be caught, or they are tagged out or forced out at a base and called out by an ump, or see the ball go over the fence, or go foul, or until their first base coach or their third base coach tells them to stop running. I know many of you posters here at TD know more about baseball than I do...so please tell me where I'm wrong in my advice to my young players who are learning the game. And if I am not wrong in my advice to my young players, then was Eddie Rosario wrong in the way he went from the batter's box to first base on the play in question?

I responded to this but messed up attaching it. See post #57. I would also add that trying to teach kids what it means to hustle is very different than what's going on at here. 

[tarheeltwinsfan]

 

How do you treat your job? Everyone reading and posting on this from their cube is totally loafing it to first.

If you’re ‘balls to the wall’ all the time you will burn out or get hurt. These guys have to make it through a taxing season. Expend energy when necessary. Conserve it when possible.

I agree. However where we disagree is that when your team is losing 2-1 and you are in a pennant race and Cleveland is only 4 games back...this is not the time "to conserve energy" by jogging to 1B on a deep fly ball.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

 

I responded to this but messed up attaching it. See post #57. I would also add that trying to teach kids what it means to hustle is very different than what's going on at here. 

I'm sorry but I don't understand how that is different. Please explain. Thanks.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

 

Stretching a double into a triple is on the runner, not the third base coach, same as going first to third on a single. 

 

The decision to go for third is made before Rosario reaches second base, and is made by him as he judges the location of the ball and the outfielders. 

Oh now I understand why he was jogging to 1B instead of running fast, because he was "judging the location of the ball" as he jogged to 1B.

[Trov]

As I am annoyed with not only not running the ball hard out of box, but also trying to go to third after not running hard out of box and making third out at third, something that should never happen, Eddie is who he is.  The Twins have preached that all year for players to be them.  They are adults and hopefully he will learn from it.  He is not a child that needs a time out, he knows he cost the team, and hopefully he learns from it moving forward.  

 

I am not surprised he got the start the next day, not because we are short on options, but at this level, what does sitting a guy for a game really teach them they do not already know?  If you do not like it, cut him and move on to someone that will hustle 100% of the time, else live with some of his bone head plays. 

[twinsnorth49]

 

One isn’t going to know if the base coach is telling him to stop if he isn’t looking at him. It also seems to me that one is going to be able to run faster looking forward than backward.

That's the way most coaches teach it, no use looking into RF while rounding 2nd, your 3rd base coach already is. 

[SockNet]

 

I agree. However where we disagree is that when your team is losing 2-1 and you are in a pennant race and Cleveland is only 4 games back...this is not the time "to conserve energy" by jogging to 1B on a deep fly ball.

I disagree he was even dogging it. refer back to my post #38 on what might have happened hard out of the box. He might have misread it as a home run off the bat but he really treated a sure double like a sure double. Rosario is being chastised because he has speed enough to maybe make it to third the way the ball came off the wall funny. Cruz and Cron could have done a light jog to second on that ball and no one would have said boo because they are not going to third. 

[SockNet]

 

I'm sorry but I don't understand how that is different. Please explain. Thanks.

I think this thread is a debate about philosophy of full on hustle on every play vs pacing out a season to try and stay as health and productive as possible during a long season. Coaching little league is as much about teaching sportsmanship and the value of hard work as it is fundamentals. I don't think many on this thread would question whether or not Rosario is a hard worker or dedicated to his profession. You might feel different. That's okay.

 

Rosario maybe could have use some more coaching on fundamentals though.

[ChiefsKid]

Obviously, no.

Of course not. Rosario is and has been one of the best players on the team. And his bat is finding the power stroke at exactly the right time, when the other two starting outfielders are absent.

 

He got thrown out at third, trying to stretch an easy double into a triple. I don't have any issue with that.

I do have issues with him lazily running to ground balls into the left field corner. Whether he is or not, he comes off pretty cocky. But he's turned into a hell of a ballplayer. And I think something not mentioned much in this thread is the importance of him in the clubhouse. I believe that a lot of the success of this years team is a result of chemistry. Just watching these guys, they seem to feed off of each other. And every single time, Rosie is right in the middle of it. Every single time.

Unfortunately the fact is, you put up with the antics when he's producing and especially when we are winning. And I don't think his negatives have really outweighed the positives. He's come up with a lot of big hits and big plays. He's developed into a legitimate middle of the order bat and has a right field arm in left.

 

Playing left field and batting cleanup, Eddie Rosario.

[Only Here in Negative]

 

 

 

 

And dragging injury into this is completely off base. 

 

Why is dragging injury into this off base? Eddie Rosario has dealt with nagging leg injuries all year. I think its worth thinking about that in contemplating why he might be gauging how hard he needs to run on a ball to the wall. I also think its entirely relevant when we explain why every player doesn't Pete Rose it every play. It isn't just laziness or lack of hustle - there are real injury concerns that come into play. You're going to tweak a hammy a certain percentage of times you run all out. If you can keep the number of times you sprint down, you'll be healthier.

 

It's not different than telling a pitcher they don't need to throw it as hard as they can each pitch or strikeout each batter. Finding ways to succeed without doing that is the name of the game.

[Only Here in Negative]

 

 

Pete Rose seemed to always give every play his best. And please don't tell me he was this super-athlete. He was an average sized ballplayer that had a passion for the game. When you're getting paid millions of dollars off the backs of hard-working folks that come to see you, I would expect total hustle on every play. That doesn't mean you should be running into walls full-speed, but you should be running as fast as you possibly can to each and every base. 

 

I'm always leery when someone uses an extraordinary example as the standard everyone should meet. Pete Rose was an extraordinarily competitive human being, an outlier out on the edges with Ty Cobb. He competed insanely and hustled relentlessly because he was driven to do so. He's not really reflective of all players. This is the guy who broke a catcher's arm in the All Star Game and never felt bad about it. The competitiveness made a good player great but it also alienated teammates and opponents and led pretty directly to his ban from baseball. I'm not saying he's not great, just that he's not a great reference since he's so far out there. It'd be like saying more baseball players should be like Ricky Henderson. Sure they should. But they can't, that's why he's Ricky.

 

Its easy to say that these guys should go all out every play but that's more of an ideal than a reality. Guys would get hurt busting tail down the line on every groundball. They'd hurt opponents barreling into second base at full speed. There's somewhere between Puig and Pete Rose that's ideal. Eddie Rosario wasn't it that play but saying "Every player should play all out because we pay them to do so" is a pretty Draconian way of viewing it and isn't particularly realistic. 

 

P.S. I'm wary whenever anyone uses the phrase "off the backs of the hardworking folks". There's an amount of hyperbole there that's a bit much. 

[adorduan]

"That being said, he might have cost the Twins the game on Wednesday night."

 

Nah, 8 other dudes not hitting the ball cost them the game.

[ewen21]

 

How do you treat your job? Everyone reading and posting on this from their cube is totally loafing it to first.

If you’re ‘balls to the wall’ all the time you will burn out or get hurt. These guys have to make it through a taxing season. Expend energy when necessary. Conserve it when possible.

Sorry.  What people do working in cubicles (not me) do for $60,000 a year is different from what ballplayers do.  One doesn't translate into the other. Not just because of the money either.  They don't play for a fan base and they aren't making millions to work 7 months a year.

 

The second part about deciding when and when not to expend energy is also bogus.  Run out of the box.  What is so hard about that?  It doesn't need to be like 40 yard dash sprints but do it right.  Among other habits Eddie has this is another one that isn't a good one.  He is a frequent flyer in this regard.

 

And since you ask.....

As far as how I treat my job, I am a tenured teacher in the NY state system.  The doors open in my school at 9:00 but I am often there at 7:00, 7:30 is late for me.  I'm 23 years in so I really don't need to do it because I have something called tenure.  So when you throw that question out there to me it completely backfires. Unlike you, I do not assume the people here openly slack at work in front of everyone.

[Twodogs]

Last night was not Rosario's first time to dog it. I absolutely hate plays where a player is not hustling 100%. I hope the matter has been handled privately, instead of publicly embarrassing the player. I hope Rocco said something to Eddie in private and hopefully Cruz did too.

I think every guy on the Twins roster has done something like that at some point in time. I agree that you handle that in house and remind him that of course every play is important and also that player life span doesn't last forever so take advantage of what you got when you have it so you have no regrets in the end. But doing something publicly does nothing for the concept of the team in the long run. You do something publicly when you are done with him and it's time to move on forever.

[Diesel]

Seeing Sano really hustle on two different plays last night tells me there was a discussion in the locker room.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Sano has always hustled.

[USAFChief]

How do you treat your job? Everyone reading and posting on this from their cube is totally loafing it to first.

 

If you’re ‘balls to the wall’ all the time you will burn out or get hurt. These guys have to make it through a taxing season. Expend energy when necessary. Conserve it when possible.

I'm "balls to the wall" at work when the situation calls for it...like running hard when I put a ball in play.

 

Other times at work I can relax a bit, like sitting on the bench waiting for my turn at bat.

 

I can assure you all my employers expected me to know the difference, and put forth the effort when called for. I suspect you're no different.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Seeing Sano really hustle on two different plays last night tells me there was a discussion in the locker room.

I agree, there was probably a gut check in the clubhouse of some sort.

 

I posted that I felt Sano always hustles; that wasn’t meant as a rebuttal to your observation. It’s good to see hustle at this point from everyone.

[adorduan]

 

Sorry.  What people do working in cubicles (not me) do for $60,000 a year is different from what ballplayers do.  One doesn't translate into the other. Not just because of the money either.  They don't play for a fan base and they aren't making millions to work 7 months a year.

 

The second part about deciding when and when not to expend energy is also bogus.  Run out of the box.  What is so hard about that?  It doesn't need to be like 40 yard dash sprints but do it right.  Among other habits Eddie has this is another one that isn't a good one.  He is a frequent flyer in this regard.

 

And since you ask.....

As far as how I treat my job, I am a tenured teacher in the NY state system.  The doors open in my school at 9:00 but I am often there at 7:00, 7:30 is late for me.  I'm 23 years in so I really don't need to do it because I have something called tenure.  So when you throw that question out there to me it completely backfires. Unlike you, I do not assume the people here openly slack at work in front of everyone.

Modern day athletes work more than 7 months a year, even if they aren't playing games

[Kelly Vance]

In a word, No. Next question. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Rosario is not a perfect player but he's certainly interesting to watch.

 

When I really got tired of him was when he threw out Devers. What a slouch. He could have easily had him at least two feet earlier with a better throw.

 

But, alas, it's not as if that mattered much to the Twins season anyway.

[ewen21]

 

Rosario is not a perfect player but he's certainly interesting to watch.

 

When I really got tired of him was when he threw out Devers. What a slouch. He could have easily had him at least two feet earlier with a better throw.

 

But, alas, it's not as if that mattered much to the Twins season anyway.

Obviously you aren't into the criticism of Rosario and judging from the sarcasm here you must think it is irrational and unwarranted.  OK....why not just up front rather than this baloney?

Just sayin