Front Page: Twins Game Recap (9/15): Bad Defense Costs Twins in Series Finale

[Pdxtwins]

Our Twins just took 2 out of 3 from Cleveland on the road with our bullpen exclusively. Calm down!!

[jz7233]

 

It is a fans perspective of how they view 'failure' . An error in a key spot in a game could cost the team a win. A strikeout with RISP in a key spot in the game does the same. I guess I don't see Schoop as the big liability you think he is. But that too can be a factor of whether you 'like' a player or not too. I don't have the time or energy to actually try and see how many games Schoop has 'lost' for us with poor defense. I do know I've seem him make some extraordinary plays as well.

I think ultimately, the discussion is probably moot, because I don't think the Twins will bring him back...with the emergence of Arraez, and the good play of Adrianza. Also Gordon may still be in the mix. Schoop is probably expendable.

 

Baseball gives you many dirrerent ways to succeed in a game, as well as fail. Whether an error, a strikeout, a HR, or a diving catch...all could, and have been game changers. I guess thats why we deal with the ebbs and flows of the game. I'm the impatient sort that wants to win 162 of them and I hate all losses. But then, what real fan likes losses anyway???

Schoop has 14 errors this season. Sano has 15. Schoop has 0 hit 0 walk and plenty of strikeouts when bases are loaded. Schoop is pretty much an automatic out in crucial situation. Schoop has no plate discipline. Schoop's line: 20 walks 107 strikeouts Sano's line: 50 walks 144 strikeouts.

Edited September 16, 2019 by jz7233

[USAFChief]

Schoop has 14 errors this season. Sano has 15. Schoop has 0 hit 0 walk and plenty of strikeouts when bases are loaded. Schoop is pretty much an automatic out in crucial situation. Schoop has no plate discipline. Schoop's line: 20 walks 107 strikeouts Sano's line: 50 walks 144 strikeouts.

Schoop started the game winning rally in game 2 Saturday, and made 2 really nice defensive plays that were pretty important in that game.

 

Schoop isnt a great player, and Mike's probably right about spending his money elsewhere next year, but he's contributed many times to this year's team.

[USAFChief]

I'm guessing that Romero's and Gibson's appearances were because we don't get any more chances to evaluate them against good lineups fighting for their lives. So this may have been to see if Romero can be considered for the playoff roster, and if Gibson could be a bullpen option.

I doubt there was or is any consideration of Romero for the post season roster. Nor would a good outing today have changed that.

[ScrapTheNickname]

Schoop doesn't rhyme with poop ... Schoop rhymes with nope (as in next year he won't be a Twin but this year he'll continue to contribute in spot situations).

Edited September 16, 2019 by ScrapTheNickname

[stringer bell]

 

In order to fix the problem, Schoop needs to be released. He usually does little offensively when it matters anyway. Schoop can take his meaningless homers and errors elsewhere next season.

I'm far from a huge Schoop fan and he had a bad game today, but he is a competent major league second baseman. His contribution has gone up as of late with more playing time because of all the injuries. He quite likely will get plate appearances in the (hoped for) playoffs and is an injury away from playing every day.

 

I kind of scoffed when the commentators were giving him so much credit for his fielding yesterday and today he showed his downside. He has made a lot of errors and his quickness and leg speed is marginal. 

[Pius Jefferson]

It may have ended the same way but why not have Gibson start the 6th inning. He's a starter so he's not use to coming in mid-inning.  

 

Sunday's game gave you that feeling after you eat Pizza. Good overall (the series) but it ends with you needing TUMS. My hope is a game like this keeps them focused on finishing the job. 

[Dantes929]

Of course there is some hindsight here but maybe Berrios would have been a good guy to pitch the 6th through the 9th.    A two run lead and just 4 innings to get through.  A win today against our closest rivals would have been worth more than a win Monday.  

[Aerodeliria]

 

Twins have the record for most 20 HR players in a season (8); they may still out homer the Yankees..its very close. The record for most 30+ HR players is 4 and it is held by many teams. Twins are one homer (Sano) away from breaking that record...they already have Kepler, Cruz, Garver and Rosario. Record for 40+ is two. Twins might tie that record but with Keplers nagging injury, he may not play enough to get 4 more. Cruz could do it.

As homeruns go, it has been quite a year for the Twins, juiced ball or not.

The Twins may get the record for 30+ guys, but they won't get or tie the record for 40+ guys because record is three not two. The Rockies in 1997 did it and finished 3rd in their division. The Braves did it 1973 as well...they finished second to last!

[Aerodeliria]

 

Schoop started the game winning rally in game 2 Saturday, and made 2 really nice defensive plays that were pretty important in that game.

Schoop isnt a great player, and Mike's probably right about spending his money elsewhere next year, but he's contributed many times to this year's team.

Well-said.

[SoDakTwinsFan4]

I'm done with Schoop after the year. They need the money anyway.

 

 

I sure would have liked to see Rosario take a better route on that ball in left off the bat of Kipnis. What percentage of left fielders make that catch? Eddie comes up big with the bat, but it always seems to be a double edged sword with him.

[VivaBomboRivera!]

Twins got just about everything they wanted from this series, in spite of letting the third game slip away.  Without wallowing too deeply in the loss, we should not forget that the score might have been different if Sano had not been careless on the base paths after his first inning hit.  The guy needs to stay focused even when he's playing hot.

 

Gibson is too ill to contribute and should be convalescing.  The remainder of his career depends on him getting well.

 

Net is the Twins faced three of the league's best starters and were able to take the upper hand.  Assuming management has learned from the results of the bullpen experiment they are likely rebuilding the rotation for the remainder of the month and beyond.  As of the 14th, Twins are 8th in the Majors in ERA (4.17) and 5th in FIP (3.67).  Take Pineda and Gibson out and that doesn't change much.  Knocking down Cleveland takes out one of those better pitching teams.  If we're really lucky, Tampa Bay will find a way to do our dirty work for us so we can crush them in the ALCS the same way we did during the season.

 

Personally I took a running leap and boarded the Bomba Bus in early June after the brakes had already been cut.  Will be at Target Field for two games of the KC series. The Twins aren't likely to clinch by then unless the Motor City Kitties and the Phils stick it to Cleveland, but I'm riding this rickety crate into October, where I fully expect them to smack down the Yankees. That is all.

[MMMordabito]

At least we're learning good things about Randy Dobnak and Brusdar Graterol.

 

If the season ended today (won't need an 'if' for too long), my playoff rotation is Berrios, Odorizzi, Dobnak, Perez. Smeltzer is the long guy. Rogers, Duffey, Romo, May, Littell and Graterol are in the bullpen. That leaves one bullpen spot up for grabs. Will Dyson get healthy? Is Gibby an option?(experiment #1 = fail) Could the Twins be so fortunate as to have a double K-Rod late addition scenario with Alcala joining Graterol? I guess we have two weeks to find out.

[laloesch]

 

At least we're learning good things about Randy Dobnak and Brusdar Graterol.

If the season ended today (won't need an 'if' for too long), my playoff rotation is Berrios, Odorizzi, Dobnak, Perez. Smeltzer is the long guy. Rogers, Duffey, Romo, May, Littell and Graterol are in the bullpen. That leaves one bullpen spot up for grabs. Will Dyson get healthy? Is Gibby an option?(experiment #1 = fail) Could the Twins be so fortunate as to have a double K-Rod late addition scenario with Alcala joining Graterol? I guess we have two weeks to find out.

I'm also excited to see more of Dobnak and Graterol. I wouldn't start Perez though. He's an automatic loss against a decent team and I rather take my chances with someone who has some gas on his fb and other weapons. Perez is a one trick pony and one dimensional which is why teams have figured him out again. Smeltzer is turning me into a believer and i think the reason he is successful so far is his diverse offering of pitches.

Edited September 16, 2019 by laloesch

[Riverbrian]

 

Of course there is some hindsight here but maybe Berrios would have been a good guy to pitch the 6th through the 9th.    A two run lead and just 4 innings to get through.  A win today against our closest rivals would have been worth more than a win Monday.  

 

I'm not sure why Rocco turned to Gibby? 

 

My only assumption is after nearly every bullpen arm throwing the day before... he looked at his options and said "I trust Gibby the most". 

 

Future questions to be answered. 

 

Is Gibby still in the rotation?

With his illness.. Are they going to try to manage his innings? 

 

Do we still have a rotation? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

 

It may have ended the same way but why not have Gibson start the 6th inning. He's a starter so he's not use to coming in mid-inning.  

 

Sunday's game gave you that feeling after you eat Pizza. Good overall (the series) but it ends with you needing TUMS. My hope is a game like this keeps them focused on finishing the job. 

 

What kind of pizza are you eating? 

[rdehring]

Didn't see much of the game as I was watching the Pack vs. Vikings.  Was a bit shocked when I flipped over and saw Dobnak still pitching in the 5th inning.  One hell of a performance by that young man.  Also saw some of Romero putting guys on base.  Don't know what is going to happen to that young man over the coming year.

 

Yes, we lost yesterday in a game that we didn't put our best team out there.  But all those pitchers who pitched Saturday got a days rest.  If anyone had told us last Friday morning the team would be flying home with a 4.5 game lead we all would have been more than happy.  Bring on the White Sox.

[Old Twins Cap]

Looked to me like the Twins may have had a late night after the double-header sweep on Saturday.

 

Might have been a few bottles clinking around on the Twins' bus on the way to the stadium.

[IndianaTwin]

 

What kind of pizza are you eating? 

 

Barbecue chicken, at least on Saturday. 

 

 https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwji5KGPsdXkAhUQbawKHW0lB9IQjRx6BAgBEAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.delish.com%2Fcooking%2Frecipe-ideas%2Fa25847047%2Fbbq-chicken-pizza-recipe%2F&psig=AOvVaw2EReVZZF9S0Ax5kKNgs5sI&ust=1568724705643263

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by IndianaTwin

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

What kind of pizza are you eating? 

Pizza in the morning, pizza in the evening, pizza at suppertime...

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQBan9MOy60

[Dantes929]

 

I'm not sure why Rocco turned to Gibby? 

 

My only assumption is after nearly every bullpen arm throwing the day before... he looked at his options and said "I trust Gibby the most". 

 

Future questions to be answered. 

 

Is Gibby still in the rotation?

With his illness.. Are they going to try to manage his innings? 

 

Do we still have a rotation? 

I wouldn't have suggested Berrios except he was the expected starter and we had a two run advantage with 4 to go.   Seems like a good bet though of course could have gone all wrong.     We have a rotation of sorts.    Berrios, Odorizzi, Gibson, Perez and Dobnak/Thorpe/Smelzer.     I would not mind seeing the last three listed replace Perez and Gibson if they don't do well in their next return.   I'm not down on either necessarily but am concerned about Gibson's health and Perez seems to be at replacement level.   Get to the playoffs first.    Then Berrios becomes our poor man's 87 Viola, Odorizzi becomes our 87 rich man's Blyleven and take your pick for 87 Straker.   Bullpen was probably already the equal of the 87 pen before Romo and the emergence of Duffey, May, Littel and Graterol.    Fun times ahead hopefully.

[Riverbrian]

I wouldn't have suggested Berrios except he was the expected starter and we had a two run advantage with 4 to go. Seems like a good bet though of course could have gone all wrong. We have a rotation of sorts. Berrios, Odorizzi, Gibson, Perez and Dobnak/Thorpe/Smelzer. I would not mind seeing the last three listed replace Perez and Gibson if they don't do well in their next return. I'm not down on either necessarily but am concerned about Gibson's health and Perez seems to be at replacement level. Get to the playoffs first. Then Berrios becomes our poor man's 87 Viola, Odorizzi becomes our 87 rich man's Blyleven and take your pick for 87 Straker. Bullpen was probably already the equal of the 87 pen before Romo and the emergence of Duffey, May, Littel and Graterol. Fun times ahead hopefully.

I’ve stated multiple times that I wish the Twins would have already had more MLB info on Dobnak and Smeltzer.

 

I don’t buy any assumption that Perez is better. He might be but his bar isn’t hard to clear. He has an ERA over 5 since June. Those are not numbers to lock into and say we have no need for improvement.

 

With Gibson being a question mark and Pineda out. Perez has gone from 5th best to 3rd best by default.

 

We could have prepped for this better.

 

Bullpen games will be what we do now for at least one spot in the rotation and I’m Ok with this because of current team context. But with Gibson throwing yesterday... I’m wondering if we don’t bullpen two spots in the rotation.

[Dantes929]

 

I’ve stated multiple times that I wish the Twins would have already had more MLB info on Dobnak and Smeltzer.

I don’t buy any assumption that Perez is better. He might be but his bar isn’t hard to clear. He has an ERA over 5 since June. Those are not numbers to lock into and say we have no need for improvement.

With Gibson being a question mark and Pineda out. Perez has gone from 5th best to 3rd best by default.

We could have prepped for this better.

Bullpen games will be what we do now for at least one spot in the rotation and I’m Ok with this because of current team context. But with Gibson throwing yesterday... I’m wondering if we don’t bullpen two spots in the rotation.

With Rogers, Graterol, Littell, May, Duffey, Romo, Smeltzer, Dobnak and Stashak all throwing well it would seem in our best interests to have a bullpen for one spot and a short leash on Perez and Gibson going forward.     Have we ever had a bullpen this deep?    I know some of these guys are unproven but I have no qualms about any of these guys getting innings.   I have no idea how Romo does it with an 84 mph fastball and 90% sliders.   I feel a little bad for Romero because it seems some bad luck haunts him in the form of fluke singles, errors, etc. but it seems like he always compounds the bad breaks with a walk or two and wild pitches so he still owns it.    Calling them bullpen games seems a little disingenuous since Dobnak, Smeltzer and Thorpe can all go 4 or 5 innings.

[LVTwinsfan]

Why not play to clinch the division as quickly as possible and then rest players? Sounds like a better plan. Baldelli's approach is very curious.

some players needed rest immediately. Kepler for one, resting Berrios is okay too, the Twins are down to two starters, bullpen games in the playoffs are inevitable. There goal was to win the series. They did that, They are in good shape, they will win the division easily if they can get healthy

[Don Walcott]

 

I'm guessing that Romero's and Gibson's appearances were because we don't get any more chances to evaluate them against good lineups fighting for their lives.  So this may have been to see if Romero can be considered for the playoff roster, and if Gibson could be a bullpen option.

Was Romero still an option for the playoff roster? Given how well our bullpen has been pitching, I can't imagine that Romero could have done anything to get himself on the playoff roster. I think it was a huge mistake putting him out there in our last game against our only competitors in the division -- a game we were winning!

 

I also think it was not a good time to experiment with Gibson as a reliever. There is absolutely no reason to believe Gibson was up to the task, after his poor start on Thursday. Rather than screw around with his schedule, I'd have preferred to see the Twins try to get Gibson back on a normal schedule for starting, and have a short leash for him starting a playoff game (rather than just start the game off as a bullpen game, just prepare for the possibility when Gibson starts). Now, we may have screwed him up as a starter as well.

 

And, most importantly, we could have won that game. Putting Romero and Gibson out there to protect a lead were not our best options for winning that game.

[Riverbrian]

With Rogers, Graterol, Littell, May, Duffey, Romo, Smeltzer, Dobnak and Stashak all throwing well it would seem in our best interests to have a bullpen for one spot and a short leash on Perez and Gibson going forward. Have we ever had a bullpen this deep? I know some of these guys are unproven but I have no qualms about any of these guys getting innings. I have no idea how Romo does it with an 84 mph fastball and 90% sliders. I feel a little bad for Romero because it seems some bad luck haunts him in the form of fluke singles, errors, etc. but it seems like he always compounds the bad breaks with a walk or two and wild pitches so he still owns it. Calling them bullpen games seems a little disingenuous since Dobnak, Smeltzer and Thorpe can all go 4 or 5 innings.

The bullpen is deep for the moment.

 

Once the playoff roster gets set it’ll be a little different. Do they keep Stashak or Smeltzer or Littell. More data is necessary to make that decision. Until they hand the ball to Smeltzer or Dobnak and allow them to pitch as many innings as they allow Perez to throw. Bullpenning seems like an accurate term.

[jmlease1]

Frustrating game to watch, because the Twins didn't pitch too badly (other than Gibson's meatball) and the hitting was there, but oh my the D was ugly. Schoop's concentration was just not there, the dropped ball on what should have been a fairly routine double play was just a killer. Rosario's bizzarro route on the fly ball he failed to corral was, shall we say, Delmon-esque. (Yuck)

 

Still and all, a good series overall. Let's just finish off the division and get everyone healthy (in that order).

[insagt1]

 

The Twins may get the record for 30+ guys, but they won't get or tie the record for 40+ guys because record is three not two. The Rockies in 1997 did it and finished 3rd in their division. The Braves did it 1973 as well...they finished second to last!

Right you are. My bad...I didn't look far enough down the list of 2's! In fact it says the Rockies did it in 1997 and 1998 as well as the 1973 Braves. So no, Twins won't equal that record this year...but I'm pretty sure Sano will get one more before its all over to give us 5 30+ HR hitters.

 

All this talk about Schoop (his value vs no value) reminds me of the Expos final season when they had Tony Batista. He led them in HR's and RBI but had a pretty low BA. And the stat hounds were quick to point out he had more chances to drive in runs than just about any other player in the league...conclusion....he failed a lot despite his seemingly decent numbers. And the debate raged on for months. So many ways to evaluate a player. And I still maintain that a component of how one spins the evaluation has something to do with whether you just flat out like or dislike that player.

I could have someone throw bouquets of stats in my face about how good Albert Belle was, but I disliked him so much I (irrationally perhaps) didn't care. As an Oriole fan, I could never cheer for him. Granted Belle was pretty much universally considered a real jerk...I don't think Schoop has that tag on him...but sometimes there are just players you don't like.

Not scientific....but still very true.

[stringer bell]

I don't get the Gibson thing either. Perhaps because of his illness, the brain trust doesn't think he has the stamina to go even five innings, so they want to see what he can do in the bullpen? For a batter and a half, Romero looked like the real deal and Eddie probably should have caught Kipnis' drive to left. 

 

 

[SwainZag]

 

I don't get the Gibson thing either. Perhaps because of his illness, the brain trust doesn't think he has the stamina to go even five innings, so they want to see what he can do in the bullpen? For a batter and a half, Romero looked like the real deal and Eddie probably should have caught Kipnis' drive to left. 

 

Even so it seems weird just 3 days after he threw 93 pitches.  I could see if he hadn't pitched in 6+ days or something, but it seems like an odd decision with as many arms are up.