Front Page: Suspension Shouldn’t Factor into Potential Pineda Reunion

[laloesch]

I would note that the need for a 5th starter at the beginning of the season is somewhat muted. Obviously, you have an issue b/c it's 40 games, but it's really not going to be much of an issue until May timeframe, so if they aren't going after a big name, I'm fine with something like this.

 

I think it depends on who the Twins resign or trade for. If they don't bring anybody in to fill a slot Pineda's suspension becomes much more painful considering he was arguably the team's best starter the past month and a half.

[jud6312]

One thing that should be noted is that from the things I've read, Pineda took Hydrochlorothiazide, which you can't get OTC. It has to be prescribed.

 

So unless it's been erroneously reported, and I haven't seen an update to the story, he's lying about what he took. That, to me, is also a pretty big thing.

[Riverbrian]

 

Of course Michael Pineda was using steroids. Are we going to feign stupidity? Athletes cheat all the time these days. I'm not going to forgive it or forget it, because it's just a fact of life in a capitalist society. People that grow up desperate for financial security will lie, cheat and steal to get it. Even people that grow up rich will lie, cheat and steal to stay rich.

 

Now, if we have all thrown off our baby one piece jammies, should the Twins pitch a contract to Pineda? Heck yeah, he was a bargain basement special, and he might go slightly under top dollar to make things right with the Twins. He did put the team in a pickle by getting caught. He needs to learn to build his body legally. It can be done. Meanwhile, Pineda looks great on the mound for this team. Innings eating horse, with ace potential. Keep the man in Minnesota. 

 

I agree with everything you've said. 

 

I would only add: "Umm, We gotta sign someone". 

[Riverbrian]

 

Tough Criticism. I never in the article said that Pineda’s injury history or PEDs should be specifically ignored in the aggregate, but expecting him to trend upwards and not downwards would and should be a realistic possibility coupled with a low price tag, making him a very realistic option for resigning. There has never been a baseball team to enter the season with 5, and come out with 5 starters with 30+ starts in who knows how long. That’s just reality now. And given three roster spots have come open, the fruits for possibility are endless. I thought exploring this possibility was intriguing and that I’d get mixed bag reactions. I assumed that readers would enter this with open, impartial view and not be vindictive and resentful. Obviously I was wrong. I apologize if my content wasn’t up to your standards. I’ll try harder next time.

 

I think it's a good article with a legitimate question. 

 

[Riverbrian]

 

Remember, if they have one or two rookies starting as part of the plan, Pinedas placeholder for eight to ten starts will be the next guy. And when there is an injury, the next guy.

How deep do people think the help in the minors is to start the year?

 

I'd prefer that they don't hand a job to anyone and call them a placeholder. 

 

We will need 8 starters at least throughout the year. I'd like to see all 8 competing for the 5 spots and I think it would be wise for Pineda to be one of those 8. 

 

If the front office views it from your standpoint.

 

If they plan to sign Pineda and use Player X until Pineda returns, knowing Player X is going to be a sub par pitcher. Already knowing that they will send Player X away when Pineda returns, neat and clean like a Hollywood script. 

 

Then it would be a horrible idea. 

 

In that Scenerio... They should still sign Pineda and find a better player than player X. 

 

Signing Pineda should not prevent them from finding a legitimate arm for that 5th spot in the rotation. 

 

 

[Boom Boom]

I would note that the need for a 5th starter at the beginning of the season is somewhat muted. Obviously, you have an issue b/c it's 40 games, but it's really not going to be much of an issue until May timeframe, so if they aren't going after a big name, I'm fine with something like this.

The effect of the suspension depends on the rest of the rotation depth. I'm not against signing Pineda, for the record. If the Twins make a bigger rotation upgrade, I'd be fine with it.

 

If Pineda is your 2 or 3 starter, then the suspension creates a bigger vaccuum. And regardless of the schedule, there will probably be a need for a 5th starter earlier than expected.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I'd prefer that they don't hand a job to anyone and call them a placeholder. 

 

We will need 8 starters at least throughout the year. I'd like to see all 8 competing for the 5 spots and I think it would be wise for Pineda to be one of those 8. 

 

If the front office views it from your standpoint.

 

If they plan to sign Pineda and use Player X until Pineda returns, knowing Player X is going to be a sub par pitcher. Already knowing that they will send Player X away when Pineda returns, neat and clean like a Hollywood script. 

 

Then it would be a horrible idea. 

 

In that Scenerio... They should still sign Pineda and find a better player than player X. 

 

Signing Pineda should not prevent them from finding a legitimate arm for that 5th spot in the rotation. 

 

So, find four good pitchers, plus Pineda, in the off season? Has any team ever done that?

[Riverbrian]

 

So, find four good pitchers, plus Pineda, in the off season? Has any team ever done that?

 

Not to my knowledge. 

 

 

[USAFChief]

I would note that the need for a 5th starter at the beginning of the season is somewhat muted. Obviously, you have an issue b/c it's 40 games, but it's really not going to be much of an issue until May timeframe, so if they aren't going after a big name, I'm fine with something like this.

Its becoming more and more rare for teams to start the season with 4 starters.

 

In the specific case of the 2020 Twins they start the season Mar 26 with 8 straight scheduled games (@ Oak and Seattle for 7 straight, then the home opener) before they get a scheduled day off. Then only 5 off days sprinkled through April.

 

So I don't think they will even consider 4 starters.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

One thing that should be noted is that from the things I've read, Pineda took Hydrochlorothiazide, which you can't get OTC. It has to be prescribed.

 

So unless it's been erroneously reported, and I haven't seen an update to the story, he's lying about what he took. That, to me, is also a pretty big thing.

It could be a big thing or it may simply be due to the fact that Pineda probably doesn't spend his offseasons in the states. Let's not forget that just because a pill has to be prescribed in this country that the same applies to the rest of the world.

[insagt1]

The article was well thought out. My feeling is that in todays world of testing and suspension, it was real bad form for him to get caught, just when Twins needed him the most. Trying to beat the Yanks or anyone else in postseason requires topnotch pitching and for the most part he was their best. Let his teammates down? You betcha. did he 'say' all the right things" He said what they pretty much all say after being caught.  If the Twins were 49-100 like Baltimore, big whoop. But they have a shot at it all and he just put a real wound in that shot.  I don't buy any excuse. None.

 

Should Twins re-sign him? Depends on how they feel about their rotation going forward. They didn't throw Polanco to the curb and look at the contributions he's made. But Pineda certainly did his teammates no favors. For that I believe he owes the team 'something'. The players have closed ranks...publicly...which is fine. But secretly I don't think they can or should be real happy.

 

And it matters not if the PED's help him or not. In 2019, there are rules and he broke them. THAT's what matters...whether we like the rules or not. (and many don't)

[adorduan]

Frankly, i think the posters that are accusing him of using PED's are over the line.  He wasn't suspended for using a PED, he was suspended for using a banned substance that, among other uses is used to possibly mask a PED.There is a difference, a pretty big one, IMO. They wouldn't have reduced his suspension if there were any hints of him using a PED, say an elevated but not out of range T/E ratio.

 

It's interesting the different reactions to Polanco's suspension compared to Pineda's. But one is home grown draftee who people followed through the minors to the big leagues and the other is an "outsider" who was signed to a relatively low risk high reward flyer.

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

Frankly, i think the posters that are accusing him of using PED's are over the line. He wasn't suspended for using a PED, he was suspended for using a banned substance that, among other uses is used to possibly mask a PED.There is a difference, a pretty big one, IMO. They wouldn't have reduced his suspension if there were any hints of him using a PED, say an elevated but not out of range T/E ratio.

 

It's interesting the different reactions to Polanco's suspension compared to Pineda's. But one is home grown draftee who people followed through the minors to the big leagues and the other is an "outsider" who was signed to a relatively low risk high reward flyer.

One is a long time veteran who should know better. The other was not established at all, and was trying to make it. That's one of the differences for me. But it's cool you assumed why people feel the way they do.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

One is a long time veteran who should know better. The other was not established at all, and was trying to make it. That's one of the differences for me. But it's cool you assumed why people feel the way they do.

Yep. Going into this season, Pineda had made roughly $16m in MLB salary.

 

Guys who have made $16m (plus $8m this season) need to be smarter than that.

 

With that said, if I can nab both Pineda and Gibson for ~$15m combined next season, I do it without hesitating.

[Seansy]

This is the big thing that I believe was missing in the article. That and what kind of numbers to offer Pineda for a contract.

 

You don't get your suspension reduced from 80 games to 60 games with an arbiter for the first time in the history of MLB's drug testing program because they actually thought he was using PEDs. He was just stupid for taking something without asking the Twins about it first. 

Given that he expressed contrition for the error and wants to come back to the Twins the FO would be foolish to not explore bringing him back. 2 year deal at TBD dollar amount with some kind of vesting or team option would be ideal.

Frankly, i think the posters that are accusing him of using PED's are over the line.  He wasn't suspended for using a PED, he was suspended for using a banned substance that, among other uses is used to possibly mask a PED.There is a difference, a pretty big one, IMO. They wouldn't have reduced his suspension if there were any hints of him using a PED, say an elevated but not out of range T/E ratio.

 

It's interesting the different reactions to Polanco's suspension compared to Pineda's. But one is home grown draftee who people followed through the minors to the big leagues and the other is an "outsider" who was signed to a relatively low risk high reward flyer.

 

[dex8425]

Without PED's his injury problems will be even worse. Hard pass. 

 

Plus, there's the fact that we paid him for two years and got one half a year of help. 

[jbissell]

I think the article was well written.

 

All I'll say is that Id rather that the Twins not suddenly have a reputation of having a bunch of starters who have been busted for banned drugs in a high profile way. It makes an organization look bad. Didnt someone from Cleveland take a shot at Polanco this past weekend?

 

Bonds, Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, and Clemens really soured me on baseball for awhile.

 

Just my opinion. Like I said....it was a well written and interesting article.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Didnt someone from Cleveland take a shot at Polanco this past weekend?

Yes, but the only thing that mattered was the shot Polanco took on Cleveland to win a baseball game.

[MMMordabito]

 

Yes, but the only thing that mattered was the shot Polanco took on Cleveland to win a baseball game.

 

Yep, and it left Clevinger feeling like the movie he always seems to be auditioning for - "Dazed and Confused".

 

Twins Underground Marketing should have a bunch of inflatable "FAH Q" paddles ready to handout at his next TF start.  That would be awesome!

[Linus]

I would only sign Gibby if he is willing to take #5 starter money

[adjacent]

I don't think we should take an Oh,no! approach because he was caught using PEDs. To begin, 2 of our cornerstone players right now, Cruz and Polanco, had PED-related suspensions. And nobody cares. Second, of course the suspension will be a factor on the negotiation of the contract. Third, even when many people is assuming that he took the diuretic to mask something, MLB specifically reduced the suspension because they found no evidence that he was trying to mask anything. So, an extension for Pineda could be a good move for next year.

[Mr. Brooks]

I don't think we should take an Oh,no! approach because he was caught using PEDs. To begin, 2 of our cornerstone players right now, Cruz and Polanco, had PED-related suspensions. And nobody cares. Second, of course the suspension will be a factor on the negotiation of the contract. Third, even when many people is assuming that he took the diuretic to mask something, MLB specifically reduced the suspension because they found no evidence that he was trying to mask anything. So, an extension for Pineda could be a good move for next year.

Not to nitpick, but I've seen this a few times, and I think it should be clarified. MLB did not reduce his suspension. An independent arbitrator did.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I'm wondering if Pineda had just dropped his appeal, served his suspension, if he wouldn't be back on the field already and ready to prove himself in the playoffs and be ready to go spring training with a respectable MLB contract. All those years on the Yankees, and he never made a post-season roster. 

 

Hard pass for 2020.

[Mr. Brooks]

I'm wondering if Pineda had just dropped his appeal, served his suspension, if he wouldn't be back on the field already and ready to prove himself in the playoffs and be ready to go spring training with a respectable MLB contract. All those years on the Yankees, and he never made a post-season roster.

 

Hard pass for 2020.

Players suspended for a failed test are not eligible for the postseason, even if their suspension ends before then.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

Players suspended for a failed test are not eligible for the postseason, even if their suspension ends before then.

 

I assumed that too, when the news came out, but someone in an earlier thread corrected that to say they are eligible. 

 

Guess I'm not sure then. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

Players suspended for a failed test are not eligible for the postseason, even if their suspension ends before then.

 

I was wrong. But you were not quite correct. (kidding). If the arbitration panel had reduced Pineda's suspension in time for Pineda to serve the reduced suspension before the season ended, then Pineda would have been eligible for the postseason through an exception per Joint Drug Agreement 7.H.2. at the very end of that paragraph.

 

Here was the post I was thinking of. http://twinsdaily.com/topic/34800-front-page-michael-pineda-suspended-60-games-for-banned-substance/?p=911565

 

If Pineda had dropped his appeal, he would not have qualified for that exception, even if he had completed serving the suspension before the season ended. 

 

[Kevin]

 

Of course Michael Pineda was using steroids. Are we going to feign stupidity? Athletes cheat all the time these days. I'm not going to forgive it or forget it, because it's just a fact of life in a capitalist society. People that grow up desperate for financial security will lie, cheat and steal to get it. Even people that grow up rich will lie, cheat and steal to stay rich.

 

I am certain that no athlete from a communist or any other society would lie or cheat or steal.

 

Human nature maybe?

 

[SomeGuy]

There might be an argument that Pineda is among the top 5 starters but I would put him somewhere like 7th or 8th.  The benefit is the potential discount that you could get for him but there is serious downside with him.  Even without the multiple cheating suspensions, he is about as injury prone as they come.

 

When healthy and not suspended, he is good.  Would you bet that he goes an entire season without injury? His 2011 rookie season and 2016 are the only IL free seasons he has had over the 9 seasons.

[Mike Sixel]

There might be an argument that Pineda is among the top 5 starters but I would put him somewhere like 7th or 8th. The benefit is the potential discount that you could get for him but there is serious downside with him. Even without the multiple cheating suspensions, he is about as injury prone as they come.

 

When healthy and not suspended, he is good. Would you bet that he goes an entire season without injury? His 2011 rookie season and 2016 are the only IL free seasons he has had over the 9 seasons.

I think people are forgetting to aspect.... He's never healthy for a full year.

[etwink]

Ok, I thought you had a good argument going there until you made your comments about suggesting that people were bigoted for having a problem with Pineda controlling his weight. Good, rational, factual, conclusions fall silent when they are followed by a black-mailing straw-man argument.

People aren’t mad at Big Mike because he's overweight; they’re mad at him because he’s left a really good, really promising, team in a awful lurch. So, Pineda might be a good extension candidate due to his stats, but you need to allow some people to look past that because of their disappointment.

Sabir, you wrote a compelling article that made people think. You put yourself out there, so don’t apologize for an article “not measuring up”....ever. Next time just stick with the facts and stats and drop the arm-twisting bits at the end.