Front Page: Michael Pineda Suspended 60 Games For Banned Substance

[Only Here in Negative]

 

 

Are we really supposed to believe that Pineda was so concerned about his weight in season that he reached the point of seeking out prescription medication but never once thought to bring his concerns to the team that employs him and has access to cutting edge fitness centers & consultants, or to physicians associated with the team that could easily and safely prescribe medication if it was a viable option? 

 

The drug he tested positive for has nothing to do with actual weight loss, and it's prescribed, not purchased over the counter.  

 

He's also been pitching professionally for the last 12 years. At age 30 did he suddenly forget that taking pills that an "acquittance," gives you isn't a wise decision?

 

If the argument is negligence, then it wasn't just one bad decision, it was a slew of them, and if you buy into Occam's razor it seems to be an unlikely defense. 

 

1. Many players from the DR have been dinged for PED use. This may be tightly controlled in the U.S. (though I think anyone familiar with the War on Drugs would find it laughable to say that we tightly control any drugs) but may not be in the DR. He could've taken a weight loss drug that included this substance.

 

2. You're assuming he never took anything else because he wasn't caught. He may have gotten lucky or he may have taken other pills that just didn't contain anything not on the list. 

 

3. You're ignoring the reduction in games. That is unprecedented in the history of PED arbitration and clearly signals something. We don't know why the arbitrator did that (and likely never will), but that's pretty compelling evidence, particularly when the evidence against it is pretty tenuous.

 

4. Certainly a poor decision and Pineda is the one who will suffer the most for it - he's losing salary this year and will likely have to settle for less money in free agency. He may even have to take a 1 year deal, which is no small thing given his injury history. 

 

5. Occam's razor actually supports giving him a break. The theory holds that the explanation that involves the least speculation is likely true. In this case, there's direct evidence that there was no intent to cheat from the arbitrator's unprecedented reduction. The other side is based on speculation. Its hard to construct a scenario in which Pineda is able to cheat but convince the arbitrator he wasn't. There must have been some extensive evidence.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Only Here in Negative

[stringer bell]

 

1. Many players from the DR have been dinged for PED use. This may be tightly controlled in the U.S. (though I think anyone familiar with the War on Drugs would find it laughable to say that we tightly control any drugs) but may not be in the DR. He could've taken a weight loss drug that included this substance.

 

2. You're assuming he never took anything else because he wasn't caught. He may have gotten lucky or he may have taken other pills that just didn't contain anything not on the list. 

 

3. You're ignoring the reduction in games. That is unprecedented in the history of PED arbitration and clearly signals something. We don't know why the arbitrator did that (and likely never will), but that's pretty compelling evidence, particularly when the evidence against it is pretty tenuous.

 

4. Certainly a poor decision and Pineda is the one who will suffer the most for it - he's losing salary this year and will likely have to settle for less money in free agency. He may even have to take a 1 year deal, which is no small thing given his injury history. 

 

5. Occam's razor actually supports giving him a break. The theory holds that the explanation that involves the least speculation is likely true. In this case, there's direct evidence that there was no intent to cheat from the arbitrator's unprecedented reduction. The other side is based on speculation. Its hard to construct a scenario in which Pineda is able to cheat but convince the arbitrator he wasn't. There must have been some extensive evidence.

Some interesting points here. Did he get the diuretic in the Dominican? Could it in fact have been purchased over-the-counter? 

 

In my recollection, no drug-related suspension has been reduced as Pineda's was, which tells me there is something different about this specific case. We will probably never know all the details, but the result is that the Twins have lost another piece at a crucial time.

[nokomismod]

Reading through this thread I'm surprised by the number of people that are mad at Pineda. I would not be surprised if over 50% of MLB players are using PEDs and trying to mask them. As Twins fans we benefitted from the bounce back season big Mike had. He was becoming one of my favorite players and I would still be happy if the Twins tried to resign him.

 

 

[laloesch]

He may have made a compelling case but it doesn't mean he wasn't trying to cover some other substance. 

[laloesch]

I mad at the guy for making such a stupid mistake when we needed him the most. I think a lot of us share that sentiment.

[ashbury]

I would not be surprised if over 50% of MLB players are using PEDs and trying to mask them.

That is a whopping level of skepticism in an era of random unannounced testing throughout the season. I doubt it's 0%, and have my suspicions about a few players, but not at that kind of level.

 

It's been mentioned already, but you really should take a glance through the official document the league uses for defining it's processes. Section 2 ("PROHIBITED SUBSTANCES") lists everything they test for - PEDs and stimulants and masking agents alike. It seems pretty thorough, and if it were just a charade, you probably wouldn't see a suspension like this one at this time in a season.

 

http://www.mlbplayers.com/pdf9/5450924.pdf

[Only Here in Negative]

 

That is a whopping level of skepticism in an era of random unannounced testing throughout the season. I doubt it's 0%, and have my suspicions about a few players, but not at that kind of level.

 

It's been mentioned already, but you really should take a glance through the official document the league uses for defining it's processes. Section 2 ("PROHIBITED SUBSTANCES") lists everything they test for - PEDs and stimulants and masking agents alike. It seems pretty thorough, and if it were just a charade, you probably wouldn't see a suspension like this one at this time in a season.

 

http://www.mlbplayers.com/pdf9/5450924.pdf

 

Yeah, this to a point. They take it seriously and the testing works. That said, with this much money on the line and the relatively easy barrier of chemistry knowledge needed to create new substances, its hard not to think that there may be drugs that baseball is not even aware of that are being abused.

 

That's why I think the biggest thing that MLB has accomplished is making it something that isn't as open. In the 90s, players knew and it fostered everyone doing it. Bonds has always gotten a bum rap - he watched inferior players use PEDs and get glory so he did it himself. I think in today's game you have a general feeling amongst players that they don't have to use to compete. I'm not sure anyone would turn in a teammate, which would be telling.

[yarnivek1972]

Very often legal agreements include terms to keep parts of the agreement confidential. This is not something like government in which the public is entitled to certain information. While professional sports are very much in the public eye they are still private businesses and as such players and management are not legally required to release any information not specified in the CAB.

The Twins (and pretty much every pro sports franchise) play in taxpayer funded stadiums.

 

 

If what has been reported is true, it sounds as if the Twins knew nothing until after Pineda pitched Friday. I have a big problem with that. IMO the Twins have every right to know that one of their players failed a drug test and is facing suspension. The team needs that time to prepare. I’m pretty sure teams are capable of keeping the info private until MLB is ready to announce.

 

So, I think the CBA needs to be changed to give teams notice and if that information is leaked, a hefty fine should be imposed on the team (presumably no one from the player’s camp would leak it). Hefty, as in 7 figures.

[adjacent]

 

Yet the arbitrator found that Pineda made a compelling case that he was not using the diuretic to mask PED use.

 

Also, you are assuming that Pineda sought out the drug, but for all we know it was offered to him as something harmless to quickly lose some weight. And for all we know, the Twins were telling him what he needed to do to lose weight, but he stupidly took a shortcut that he thought was harmless, because he was not taking PEDs.

 

We are missing many pieces of the puzzle. Presumably, the arbitrator had access to some of those pieces. I am not saying that Pineda was not masking PEDs, but I do believe that there is strong reason to believe that this was a product of stupidity, not cheating.

 

 

 

Actually, a diuretic could be included in some pills that promise you to lose weight fast, and it works because you lose water. It is the worst way to lose weight, because you get dehydrated, but works in the short term (Example: a fighter trying to give the right weight before a fight.

[Mike Sixel]

For those wanting to sign him....what do you do for the first 8-9 starts he'll miss? Start another rookie besides whomever is the fifth starter?

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Wise people judge others by what they do, not by what they say.

 

Wise people do not judge... especially since a they've likely made plenty of their own judge worthy mistakes. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

For those wanting to sign him....what do you do for the first 8-9 starts he'll miss? Start another rookie besides whomever is the fifth starter?

He will have served pretty close to half of his suspension by the post season. I'm assuming our length of stay in the post season doesn't affect this, but he'd miss April and maybe a week of May. 

 

well, they really don't need a 5th starter the first month of the season... that's the easy answer. But that may mean running Thorpe or Smeltzer as your 4. 

 

I'm not sure whether to sign him or not. On the one end, he should could cheaply on a 1 year deal (and pitched well enough to earn it)... on the other.. well, he screwed up and screwed us over and is one bad test away from a season. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

He will have served pretty close to half of his suspension by the post season. I'm assuming our length of stay in the post season doesn't affect this, but he'd miss April and maybe a week of May. 

 

well, they really don't need a 5th starter the first month of the season... that's the easy answer. But that may mean running Thorpe or Smeltzer as your 4. 

 

I'm not sure whether to sign him or not. On the one end, he should could cheaply on a 1 year deal (and pitched well enough to earn it)... on the other.. well, he screwed up and screwed us over and is one bad test away from a season. 

 

He'll miss 39 games next year, according to Fangraphs.

[laloesch]

 

Actually, a diuretic could be included in some pills that promise you to lose weight fast, and it works because you lose water. It is the worst way to lose weight, because you get dehydrated, but works in the short term (Example: a fighter trying to give the right weight before a fight.

 

It's not productive for a MLB player to do this at this point in the season.  What's the end game? lose 3 or 4 or 10 pounds of water weight TEMPORARILY by dehydrating yourself with a diuretic just to march out to the mound in mid 90's Weather depending on where your location and feel like total crap?  comeonnnn. Does anybody really buy that?  

 

The only reason to do this is to cover up something else your taking. Anyone that has sweated out before an anticipated drug test for a job knows what i'm talking about. There are literally hundreds of websites claiming to sell remedies that will cleanse your system in such a fashion.

Edited September 9, 2019 by laloesch

[KirbyDome89]

 

Yet the arbitrator found that Pineda made a compelling case that he was not using the diuretic to mask PED use.

 

Also, you are assuming that Pineda sought out the drug, but for all we know it was offered to him as something harmless to quickly lose some weight. And for all we know, the Twins were telling him what he needed to do to lose weight, but he stupidly took a shortcut that he thought was harmless, because he was not taking PEDs.

 

We are missing many pieces of the puzzle. Presumably, the arbitrator had access to some of those pieces. I am not saying that Pineda was not masking PEDs, but I do believe that there is strong reason to believe that this was a product of stupidity, not cheating.

I can't imagine you believe that Pineda was trying to reduce his body weight per team instruction and a friend just so happened to have prescription diuretics on hand. You aren't running across this drug, or any analogues, unless you're looking for them. Whether he specifically sought out hydrochlorothiazide or would've taken any diuretic isn't particularly important, he made a conscious effort to obtain and ingest the drug. He purposefully forfeited the opportunity to utilize world class training facilities and medical attention in favor of taking pills a supposed associated handed him.  

 

You're right, we don't have all the pieces to the puzzle, but based on what Pineda said, and what's known about the drug he tested positive for, I think there's enough to get a sense of what was going on. 

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

It's not productive for a MLB player to do this at this point in the season.  What's the end game? lose 3 or 4 or 10 pounds of water weight TEMPORARILY by dehydrating yourself with a diuretic just to march out to the mound in mid 90's Weather depending on where your location and feel like total crap?  comeonnnn. Does anybody really buy that?  

Apparently MLB did because they decreased his suspension time, the first time I've ever heard of that happening in the 20+ suspensions I've paid attention to over the years.

[Mr. Brooks]

Apparently MLB did because they decreased his suspension time, the first time I've ever heard of that happening in the 20+ suspensions I've paid attention to over the years.

Unless they release the evidence that was presented, which they won't, we don't know why his suspension was reduced.

For all we know it could have been because of a technicality in the process.

 

It just doesn't make any logical sense to take this substance for any other reason than to mask something else.

If Pineda legitimately wants to try to lose weight, he goes to the team trainers. He doesn't go get something that's not even available OTC in America from a "buddy", and then doesn't even have the team trainers check out what he's taking.

 

It's not like this policy is brand new and you can say perhaps he just forgot that everything needs to be checked for compliance.

 

This just isn't by any stretch of the imagination a legitimate way for a professional athlete to try to lose weight in 2019, sorry, not buying it.

Edited September 9, 2019 by Mr. Brooks

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I can't imagine you believe that Pineda was trying to reduce his body weight per team instruction and a friend just so happened to have prescription diuretics on hand. You aren't running across this drug, or any analogues, unless you're looking for them. Whether he specifically sought out hydrochlorothiazide or would've taken any diuretic isn't particularly important, he made a conscious effort to obtain and ingest the drug. He purposefully forfeited the opportunity to utilize world class training facilities and medical attention in favor of taking pills a supposed associated handed him.

 

You're right, we don't have all the pieces to the puzzle, but based on what Pineda said, and what's known about the drug he tested positive for, I think there's enough to get a sense of what was going on.

I mostly agree with you but, going back and reading LA Vikes and Glunn affirms this for me.

 

Pineda’s intent isn’t clear, reading several times previously including Glunn’s shared article https://www.goodrx.com/blog/common-prescription-medications-found-in-dietary-supplements/ that supplements are notoriously not very well regulated. My previous job was in food distribution and we never ever handled supplements to avoid risk to our certifications.

 

As I said above, it’s not clear what Pineda’s intent was on taking some particular substance. There’s been speculation that he took diet pills to lose weight, but we don’t know that.

 

He may have thought he was taking a daily multivitamin for all we know. What we do know is he made a case for his intent in taking that substance that contained a banned diuretic that it was not to hide PEDs.

 

Make no mistake, I’m mad at him for taking that substance. I’m not ready to label him a PED user because he made the case of intent with the Arbitrator.

[Mike Sixel]

I really don't get the PED distinction. Why does that matter at all?

[ashbury]

I really don't get the PED distinction. Why does that matter at all?

I hope you're not asking why MLB bans PEDs. That's a rabbit hole for a different thread, probably. Opinions differ and no one's will be changed.

 

PEDs and stimulants are taken by players to gain an edge on the playing field, and are banned substances for that reason.

 

Diuretics and other masking agents may be taken by players for other reasons (blood pressure control, for one), and are banned because of the first group of banned substances. If not for PEDs and stimulants, MLB would not take an interest in diuretics.

 

Is that what you were asking? I'm really not sure.

[USAFChief]

If not for PEDs and stimulants, MLB would not take an interest in diuretics.

 

.

and there it is.

 

All the rationalization and maybe-this's and maybe-thats amount to very little, when placed in this simple context.

 

He's banned because he intentionally took a banned substance, banned because it's a known masking agent.

[ashbury]

and there it is.

 

All the rationalization and maybe-this's and maybe-thats amount to very little, when placed in this simple context.

 

He's banned because he intentionally took a banned substance, banned because it's a known masking agent.

Has anyone stated that Big Mike shouldn't be suspended? He was caught with a banned substance in his body fluids, full stop. That's the part that's black and white.

 

But he disputes the "intentionally" part, and the arbitrator (or whatever the person was) did reduce the length of the suspension from the normal length. Those two seem congruent with one another.

[Mike Sixel]

I hope you're not asking why MLB bans PEDs. That's a rabbit hole for a different thread, probably. Opinions differ and no one's will be changed.

 

PEDs and stimulants are taken by players to gain an edge on the playing field, and are banned substances for that reason.

 

Diuretics and other masking agents may be taken by players for other reasons (blood pressure control, for one), and are banned because of the first group of banned substances. If not for PEDs and stimulants, MLB would not take an interest in diuretics.

 

Is that what you were asking? I'm really not sure.

I'm asking why it matters if he was also taking PEDs. He took a banned substance. He didn't work with the team, which is super easy to do. People defending him are hoping, not really thinking about the fact he didn't work with team doctors, paid to work with him.... Edited September 10, 2019 by Mike Sixel

[ashbury]

I'm asking why it matters if he was also taking PEDs. He took a banned substance. He didn't work with the team, which is super easy to do. People defending him are hoping, not really thinking about the fact he didn't work with team doctors, paid to work with him....

It's been a long thread and I've posted more than my share, but I don't recall defending Pineda, and I don't know what you think I'm "hoping" for. You didn't specify which posts you were thinking of, when you asked your question. Maybe someone else defended and hoped. It's late and it feels like a strawman to me.

 

To want the record to be straight regarding PED, versus the banned masking agents (which have medical purposes other than masking), is not "defending" his suspension.

 

The fact he didn't work with team doctors is so obvious, I didn't feel the need to address it until now.

[Mike Sixel]

It's been a long thread and I've posted more than my share, but I don't recall defending Pineda, and I don't know what you think I'm "hoping" for. You didn't specify which posts you were thinking of, when you asked your question. Maybe someone else defended and hoped. It's late and it feels like a strawman to me.

 

To want the record to be straight regarding PED, versus the banned masking agents (which have medical purposes other than masking), is not "defending" his suspension.

 

The fact he didn't work with team doctors is so obvious, I didn't feel the need to address it until now.

Those comments were not aimed at your comments at all. Others seem to care if he was also taking PEDs, and I don't get why that matters. But I've made my points. He cheated. It is ridiculously easy to get help from team doctors. He didn't. That raises some obvious questions..... And pointed to a lack of some kind of innocence. He's on the wrong side of thirty .He hasn't pitched a full year in three years.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I mostly agree with you but, going back and reading LA Vikes and Glunn affirms this for me.

Pineda’s intent isn’t clear, reading several times previously including Glunn’s shared article https://www.goodrx.com/blog/common-prescription-medications-found-in-dietary-supplements/ that supplements are notoriously not very well regulated. My previous job was in food distribution and we never ever handled supplements to avoid risk to our certifications.

As I said above, it’s not clear what Pineda’s intent was on taking some particular substance. There’s been speculation that he took diet pills to lose weight, but we don’t know that.

He may have thought he was taking a daily multivitamin for all we know. What we do know is he made a case for his intent in taking that substance that contained a banned diuretic that it was not to hide PEDs.

Make no mistake, I’m mad at him for taking that substance. I’m not ready to label him a PED user because he made the case of intent with the Arbitrator.

The fact that supplements aren't well regulated isn't news to me, but falling back on the "I took a supplement and didn't know it contained X," is equivalent to "I didn't hit send on that tweet, my account was hacked." If we agree that hydrochlorothiazide doesn't just appear in his system unless he's seeking out a diuretic, and we agree that he made the conscious decision not to go through the team, does his intent really matter? Like I said, he's been pitching professionally in the US since he was 18; he's 30 now. He absolutely knows the protocol. I'll do him the favor of assuming he was intelligent enough to understand what he was doing, and unlucky enough to get caught. 

 

Personally I think he was trying to mask something. As I said before, the timing, his story, and the drug all cast doubt on it being an innocent mistake.The real issue is that Pineda knowingly ingested a substance without team approval. IMO the level of anger shouldn't change based on whether you believe it was to mask PEDs or simply an extreme lapse in judgment. 

[Nine of twelve]

 

He's banned because he intentionally took a banned substance, banned because it's a known masking agent.

No, he's banned because he took a banned substance. I don't think anyone has stated that he knew he was taking hydrochlorothiazide or that he intentionally took any substance that he knew was banned.

Edited September 10, 2019 by Nine of twelve

[jorgenswest]

Is whether Pineda took PEDs relevant to the discussion about resigning him? Maybe it matters for that discussion.

[Only Here in Negative]

 

It's not productive for a MLB player to do this at this point in the season.  What's the end game? lose 3 or 4 or 10 pounds of water weight TEMPORARILY by dehydrating yourself with a diuretic just to march out to the mound in mid 90's Weather depending on where your location and feel like total crap?  comeonnnn. Does anybody really buy that?  

 

The only reason to do this is to cover up something else your taking. Anyone that has sweated out before an anticipated drug test for a job knows what i'm talking about. There are literally hundreds of websites claiming to sell remedies that will cleanse your system in such a fashion.

 

It would not be unusual for a diet-type pill to include a diuretic along with other substances that tackle the issue on another front (e.g. suppressing appetite). If Pineda was hydrating normally, he likely wouldn't be marching out to the mound and feeling like crap.

 

That would also make some sense with Pineda's claim he had no idea. The diuretic may be a small aspect of the overall pill, which he had a clear reason to take. We obviously can't know that for sure but I think that there is certainly enough doubt to say "He was stupid" instead of "He was cheating."

 

I also think that you're being a bit presumptuous in saying the only reason is to cover something up. Pineda is a big guy and its not all muscle. I don't think we should assume that there aren't some powerful reasons for him to be looking to lose weight (health, looks, etc.) These guys aren't robots, they're humans and they have lots of complex desires and needs.

[Only Here in Negative]

 

He's banned because he intentionally took a banned substance, banned because it's a known masking agent.

 

Um no. It seems like a strong probability that Pineda convinced the arbitrator (for the first time in PED history) that he was not aware that it contained a banned substance. So he's banned because he took a banned substance but there's no way to say that he did it intentionally and some pretty direct proof he didn't.

 

That said, someone above indicated that maybe the reason it dropped 20 was a technical issue - something along the line of what that lying cheat Ryan Braun claimed about the test being faulty (and Braun will always be the worst of the PED cheats in my mind, he tried to take down an innocent guy who had no power). I have to think that if that was the case, Pineda would've fought it a bit more (because really, 60 vs 80 is relatively irrelevant for him) but it remains a possibility that there was some irregularity that explains the drop. So not cut and dry that it wasn't intentional because we don't have the decision but impossible to say that he took it intentionally - all of the evidence points towards this being stupid but accidental.

 

Which does the Twins nothing but makes it easier to root for Pineda and contemplate bringing him back, especially if he feels he owes the team something.