Front Page: Michael Pineda Suspended 60 Games For Banned Substance

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Stewart, Thorpe, Smeltzer, and don't forget Dobnak.  I have always been in full support of giving any of these guys a shot. 

 

 

However... It's September 7th. It's probably too late. 

 

So, who do you choose?

 

Do they have a sufficient sample of MLB performance data to aid the front office in the selection? 

Are you going to get enough data before the month is up to hand one of them a playoff roster spot?

How many starts does Smeltzer get to prove he is the one?

How many starts does Dobnak or Thorpe get... if Smeltzer uses some starts up and fails to prove he is the one? 

 

I can certainly understand the anger and disappointment directed toward Pineda. I have that same disappointment but Pineda isn't where my eyeballs are focused. 

Probably Thorpe.. more upside than Smeltzer, but Smeltzer has shown enough too. With Gibson's injury, you could potentially see both. That's scary. 

[Nine of twelve]

 

Makes one wonder when the Twins were notified of a failed test. The appeals process is typically not fast.

LEN III's piece in the Strib says that the team is not informed until near the final announcement. The Twins apparently found out late Friday, just before Pineda's last start. The article doesn't state when Baldelli was informed.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

.... and if you were trying to mask, and you are fat, and are taking some type of PED and want to lose weight, too........ it is a perfect dumb like Columbo defense. Ingenious, infact. Or perhaps it is just as Pineda says, and he still thinks water weight is a way to diet. It is irresponsible for any ball player to not clear any chemical at all with team sources, whatever it is. If you can get suspended for taking a pill..... how hard is it to always clear it with the team? I find it hard to believe any player would not check, if they are infact not trying to cover anything up.

 

Also, if "the banned diuretic he used was not a masking agent for performance-enhancing drug's", as Passan says a source says....... then why the hell is it on the banned list, and deemed worthy of suspension at all?

the diuretic Pineda used is on the banned list. There’s never been a single dispute that he didn’t earn his suspension. The reasons for the ban are well documented and reasoned.

 

I’m still not willing to condemn the man as a PED user because of the information LAVikesfan and Glunn brought up. It’s very possible he never intended to ingest that diuretic. It doesn’t excuse that he did ingest it, just reasonable doubt on a much more heinous crime.

[Nine of twelve]

 

If he knew it was banned, does it matter why?

My guess (and ALL of our comments are guesses because only Pineda himself knows for sure) is that he did not know that what he was taking was banned.

This reinforces a related point I've made previously in at least one other thread. The player and his team have a shared strong interest in having the player perform at his highest level as often as possible. The player should take no substances--none--without team knowledge and approval. (And, IMHO, that includes food.) And when it comes to any drugs or supplements, they should come only through team channels.

And the higher-profile the player, the more that extreme caution needs to be used. A disaster waiting to happen would be for some unscrupulous individual to arrange to put some stanazolol into the food at the favorite restaurant of, say, Mike Trout. Maybe we're getting to the point where we have to have food-tasters, just like royalty in medieval times.

[Nine of twelve]

 

According to this website, it's only available by prescription, so "over the counter" appears questionable.

https://www.drugs.com/hydrochlorothiazide.html

Either way, taking something "from a friend" is at best, risky to the point of being stupid.

And I dont think he's stupid.

As I said in my previous comment, only Pineda himself knows. Our comments are just guesses. I don't know enough about Pineda to cast aspersions, but over the years there have been many very good baseball players who would not win intelligence competitions.

[AlwaysinModeration]

It’s unfortunate that the Twins lose their most effective starter for September and the playoffs. I suppose it is fortunate that they got his 25 or so starts and that they still count. Who knows how much his performance was enhanced by his use of banned substances.

[Bandit34]

Well, at least he pitched a solid game for his last game in a Twins uniform. I have to admit I liked him a lot more than I thought I would. When we first got Pineda, a Yankee fan chided me and said that he's terrible. He wasn't terrible. Pretty good pitcher, I believe his story, and I wish him well if he gets picked up by a team next year. 

[Vanimal46]

If I read the rules correctly, if Pineda serves part of his suspension next season (which he will), he is also ineligible for postseason in 2020. That seriously limits his negotiating leverage.

Ouch. Big Mike was my #1 priority to resign before this development. Now I don't know if I would sign him at all.

[Bandit34]

 

Ouch. Big Mike was my #1 priority to resign before this development. Now I don't know if I would sign him at all.

No. That's pretty much settled already. I suspect that a team like the Tigers or Royals would love to sign him next year though. He could really be a good mentor for their younger pitchers. 

[Bavarian]

Looks like we can scratch him off of our list of potential free agent signings next year.  Coming off that earlier injury, this substance likely enhanced his recovery.  I can understand his temptation to take this product - it could've translated into a big deal next season.  Now?  Not so much.  A calculated risk.  I see a lot of condemnation but if you had a shot to earn tens of millions for taking a substance to speed up recovery, you might think long and hard about it. 

[Squirrel]

It’s unfortunate that the Twins lose their most effective starter for September and the playoffs. I suppose it is fortunate that they got his 25 or so starts and that they still count. Who knows how much his performance was enhanced by his use of banned substances.

What he took wasn’t a performance enhancing drug. We aren’t talking about PEDs here.

[jgfellows]

When we win the 2019 World Series despite the loss of Pineda (and possibly Cruz) it will be one of the most dramatic seasons in baseball history.

[Einheri]

 

Stewart, Thorpe, Smeltzer, and don't forget Dobnak.  I have always been in full support of giving any of these guys a shot. 

 

However... It's September 7th. It's probably too late. 

 

So, who do you choose?

ALL of them.  Rest Gibson for at least a couple of weeks.
Set up at least two sets of rotating Opener/Bulk pitching teams, probably a lefty with a righty pairing, so

Thorpe and Stewart
Smeltzer and Dobnak

And then, swap which of the two players does the opening for their next start.  Let the opener of each pitching tandem pitch until they get through the opposing team's lineup once (2-3 innings).

By seasons end, we might know if any of these guys can post-season.

[USAFChief]

I think that sometimes people who are not stupid do a stupid thing.

 

This is from ESPN's website:

 

"Pineda originally was suspended for 80 games, but the ban was reduced to 60 on appeal, as a compelling case was made that the banned diuretic he used was not a masking agent for performance-enhancing drugs, a source told ESPN's Jeff Passan."

 

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/27560862/twins-rhp-pineda-given-60-game-suspension

 

It seems to me that if he was not taking the diuretic to mask PEDs, then it was, at worst, stupid to take the diuretic. Unless ESPN's source is lying, Pineda made a "compelling case" that he was not masking PED use.

 

It also appears that some over the counter supplements illegally include prescription drugs. https://www.goodrx.com/blog/common-prescription-medications-found-in-dietary-supplements/

 

I would also invite you to discuss the post from LAVikesfan -- post #65 in this thread. I am having trouble poking holes in his analysis.

 

Until yesterday, most of us were Pineda fans. He pitched well for our favorite team and we would have loved to meet him. Now he is being labeled a cheater and worse. It seems to me that there is significant reason to believe that maybe he made a stupid decision, but is not a cheater.

 

I am not saying that Pineda did not cheat. Maybe he did. But it sounds like on appeal he was able to persuade the authorities that he was not masking PEDs.

LAVikesfan (and Pineda himself) says he took "over the counter" medications.

 

The website I listed says the substance he tested positive for is only available by prescription.

 

Which, if accurate, means Pineda's story cant be true.

 

And either way, it's both "fishy" to the point of smelling, and more than I'm willing to give him any kind of pass for.

[Only Here in Negative]

 

My guess (and ALL of our comments are guesses because only Pineda himself knows for sure) is that he did not know that what he was taking was banned.

This reinforces a related point I've made previously in at least one other thread. The player and his team have a shared strong interest in having the player perform at his highest level as often as possible. The player should take no substances--none--without team knowledge and approval. (And, IMHO, that includes food.) And when it comes to any drugs or supplements, they should come only through team channels.

And the higher-profile the player, the more that extreme caution needs to be used. A disaster waiting to happen would be for some unscrupulous individual to arrange to put some stanazolol into the food at the favorite restaurant of, say, Mike Trout. Maybe we're getting to the point where we have to have food-tasters, just like royalty in medieval times.

 

I get you're being facetious a bit here but just for those who don't understand that, using something one time won't trigger these positives. They look for volumes of the drug that are indicative of an attempt to hide a lengthy period of PED use. Mike Trout getting a pill in his lasagna while on the road in Texas wouldn't trigger it. You have to take these things regularly. Maybe if Mike Trout pissed off the delivery guy at his favorite Chinese takeout place?

[Only Here in Negative]

 

LAVikesfan (and Pineda himself) says he took "over the counter" medications.

The website I listed says the substance he tested positive for is only available by prescription.

Which, if accurate, means Pineda's story cant be true.

And either way, it's both "fishy" to the point of smelling, and more than I'm willing to give him any kind of pass for.

 

That's in the U,S, This could easily be something that is easier to get in the DR and was put in a supplement that a close friend brought into the U,S, Not saying it isn't insidious, just that your "it's only available by prescription" thing is not a smoking gun.

[DannySD]

Since we don't need pinch hitters until the world series, let's just have 14 pitchers on the postseason staff and pitch all bullpen games. That is about our only hope at this point. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

Ouch. Big Mike was my #1 priority to resign before this development. Now I don't know if I would sign him at all.

  

No. That's pretty much settled already. I suspect that a team like the Tigers or Royals would love to sign him next year though. He could really be a good mentor for their younger pitchers.

 

That post was incorrect. Pineda is eligible for the 2020 postseason. In fact, because his suspension was reduced, he would have even been eligible for the 2019 postseason if he had been able to serve his full 60 game suspension before then.

 

Page 44 here:

 

http://www.mlb.com/pa/pdf/jda.pdf

 

"2. Any Player who is suspended for a violation of Sections

7.A, 7.E, 7.F, or 7.G.2 involving a Performance Enhancing Substance,

or Section 7.B.3 or 7.B.4 involving a Stimulant, shall be barred from

participating in the post-season (including, without limitation, being in

uniform during his Club’s post-season games) during the season in

which his suspension commenced even after completion of his

suspension. A Player who began serving a 162-game suspension for a

violation involving a Performance Enhancing Substance on the first

day of a championship season also will be ineligible to participate in

any tie-breaker games during that season after the completion of his

suspension. Any Player who is suspended for a violation of the Minor

League Drug Program involving a Performance Enhancing Substance

that is also banned under the Program and is subsequently promoted to

the 40-man roster is barred from participating in the Major League

post-season that follows the season in which his suspension under the

Minor League Drug Program commenced, even after completion of his

suspension. Notwithstanding the foregoing, a Player will be permitted

to participate in the post-season during the season in which his suspension commenced if the Arbitration Panel reduced the length of a

Player’s suspension pursuant to Section 8.B.4 below based on its

determination that the Player’s positive test result was not the result of

his significant fault or negligence."

[Five minute major]

 

I'm also a Buffalo Bills fan, so you might want to take that statement back. At least our Twins have won 2, (3 when including the 1924 Senators) World Series, my Bills never have won a Super Bowl. 

 

I'm also a Buffalo Bills fan, so you might want to take that statement back. At least our Twins have won 2, (3 when including the 1924 Senators) World Series, my Bills never have won a Super Bowl. 

You do feel some of our pain but you only have to deal with one pathetic franchise.   I am talking about ALL of our sports.   No team has underperformed historically like the Vikings.  They have the best regular season recoard in All the NFL of teams never to win a SB.   Both the North Stars and Wild have never won a Cup.   The Timberwolves are arguably the worst franchise in professional sports.  Cripes, even our Gophers football and basketball teams (considered the fifth and sixth major sports in a market) have done diddly squat.   Yes the Twins have won two world series but the last was 28 years ago!!!!  We have done crap since.    There is no other market in the US with four major (or even THREE) sports team to go longer without a championship than this market.   

 

And don't get me started on the individual tragedies that have befell this market like no other.  No market has lost more superstar players to career altering injuries like this one, particularly the Twins.   This market is the owner of the WORST trade in SPORTS history with Herschel Walker.   The Wolves contract with KG was the last of its kind, handcuffing the franchise for years and forcing a complete overhaul of NBA contracts immediately after that.  Joe Smith contract losing the Wolves FOUR first round picks.  It was the Vikes loss in 2009 that changed the OT rule forever in the NFL. I could go on and on and on but am getting physically ill writing this...……………..

[Riverbrian]

 

Probably Thorpe.. more upside than Smeltzer, but Smeltzer has shown enough too. With Gibson's injury, you could potentially see both. That's scary. 

 

I don't know and I don't believe the front office knows either. 

 

Martin Perez had a 5.08 ERA in June, 5.32 ERA in July and a 6.75 ERA in August. Perez should be the replacement for Pineda because Perez's performance should have already been upgraded by now. We have sufficiant data on what Perez brings to the table. The front office has already confirmed "through action" that they believe that Martin Perez is better than all of the available options we are looking at to replace Pineda. 

 

By sticking with Perez and not allowing Smeltzer, Thorpe or Dobnak the opportunity to show they are better, they have forced us into the position of pinning the tail on the donkey blindfolded with Smeltzer, Thorpe or Dobnak. I've been warning anyone who would listen about this upcoming issue since June. 

 

We are talking about small sample sizes here. Smeltzer has been better than Perez and Gibson through 36 innings. Dobnak has been better than everybody through 9 innings. Smeltzer should have thrown his 37th inning by now and Dobnak should have thrown his 10th inning by now and we should have a pretty good idea if Smeltzer or Dobnak can improve the rotation by now. I don't trust the small sample size and I don't trust any assumption that Perez can't be improved upon and I have never trusted the possibility that the cemented 5 man rotation would be intact come playoff time. 

 

This isn't the offense where we have a roster full of guys who can get the job done, leaving no room for discovery. Even with the offense being plump full with no room for discovery, we still managed to find Arraez by letting him continue doing what he was doing. 

 

On the mound, we have protected Perez in the rotation when performance suggests he is easily replaceable. We have rostered players in the bullpen who have been under utilized and eventually released so this has never been a 25 man roster space issue. We have done nothing to prepare for this moment. 

 

I'm am extremely disappointed in Pineda and the consequences that followed his actions but if it wasn't a suspension, it was going to be an injury to one of the 5 starters or exhaustion from one of the 5 starters or just plain ole' poor performance (like we have received from Perez for 3 months) from one of the 5 starters. 

 

It's too late. We have no choice but to close our eyes and choose. I hope the choice works out. It's possible but the risk of choosing blind was unnecessary. 

 

[ashbury]

 That post was incorrect. Pineda is eligible for the 2020 postseason. In fact, because his suspension was reduced, he would have even been eligible for the 2019 postseason if he had been able to serve his full 60 game suspension before then.

 

Page 44 here:

 

http://www.mlb.com/pa/pdf/jda.pdf

Came here to post along these lines. It's hard reading (MLB doesn't hire the clearest of writers), but really necessary in order to speak definitively.

 

I think people were looking at a Wikipedia page, where some misinformation exists.

[Riverbrian]

 

ALL of them.  Rest Gibson for at least a couple of weeks.
Set up at least two sets of rotating Opener/Bulk pitching teams, probably a lefty with a righty pairing, so

Thorpe and Stewart
Smeltzer and Dobnak

And then, swap which of the two players does the opening for their next start.  Let the opener of each pitching tandem pitch until they get through the opposing team's lineup once (2-3 innings).

By seasons end, we might know if any of these guys can post-season.

 

This is probably what we need to do. I'm not sure they will do it... But, yeah we need information in double time. 

[Diesel]

Ryan Lamarre Season!

[nicksaviking]

 

ALL of them.  Rest Gibson for at least a couple of weeks.
Set up at least two sets of rotating Opener/Bulk pitching teams, probably a lefty with a righty pairing, so

Thorpe and Stewart
Smeltzer and Dobnak

And then, swap which of the two players does the opening for their next start.  Let the opener of each pitching tandem pitch until they get through the opposing team's lineup once (2-3 innings).

By seasons end, we might know if any of these guys can post-season.

 

I agree, this team should do some bullpenning down the stretch. I might even give Poppin a call and try to use him along with your four listed above for the yeoman's work. I might try using Graterol as an opener as well.

[Vanimal46]

 

That post was incorrect. Pineda is eligible for the 2020 postseason. In fact, because his suspension was reduced, he would have even been eligible for the 2019 postseason if he had been able to serve his full 60 game suspension before then.

 

 

Thanks for the clarification. In that case, Big Mike is back on my priority list to resign.

[beckmt]

I do feel that Pineda was just stupid, these drugs probably came from a friend in the DR, where things are not closely regulated.  I know if the feeling was that he was using PED's he would have gotten the 80 games and I would not have even suggested the Twins touch him again.  I still think they should offer a two year contract at a decent but reduced rate, maybe like 2/24.  Twins still need 3 - 4 starters next year, unless posters are suggesting we spend like $75 million a year on starters next year, Twins need options.

[lukeduke1980]

I think we have 1 starter and everyone else is a pitcher, even Berrios. That's pretty much how the Brewers pieced things together last year through the playoffs. It could work.

[beckmt]

I would try and see if we can get one of our Pensacola starters eligible for the postseason.  Ober for one might be an upgrade.

[laloesch]

What that really boils down to is that this is not a situation where you have a guy using a PED to try to improve performance. He took some over-the-counter diet pills to try to lose weight. We can call that stupid and the results for the team are significant, but we should not say this is a player trying to cheat.

 

Playing Devils advocate, you don't know this for certain. It may be true it may not be true.

[laloesch]

I do feel that Pineda was just stupid, these drugs probably came from a friend in the DR, where things are not closely regulated. I know if the feeling was that he was using PED's he would have gotten the 80 games and I would not have even suggested the Twins touch him again. I still think they should offer a two year contract at a decent but reduced rate, maybe like 2/24. Twins still need 3 - 4 starters next year, unless posters are suggesting we spend like $75 million a year on starters next year, Twins need options.

Complete speculation. I'm not giving Mike a pass. He knew what he was doing and he screwed over the Twins in doing so. My opinion, kick him in the rear end on his way out the door after this season. If there was a slight chance in the post season for this team he just ended it with his selfishness. There is no way this team stands up to the Astros with their starting pitching now, not against Verlander, Cole and Miley. That smells sweep all the way. If Mike hadn't gotten suspended he would have started game one or two against the Astros IMO.

 

Berrios is not pitching like an ace and hasn't for months. Gibson is dealing with long term illness which will limit his abilities if not sideline him the rest of the season. Perez is Dr. Jekyll Mr. Hyde and basically a one trick pony for the most part. Odorizzi can't pitch more than five innings in any start. Checkmate unless the Twins capture lightning in a bottle somehow in these last 20 games with Thorpe, Smeltzer or Dobnak. But i'm not holding my breath that happens.

 

Sorry, Big Mike is not a team player via his actions. On top of that what a huge fail by the front office in not acquiring another starter if they knew this suspension was possibly coming, unless Mike somehow withheld it from the team (pure speculation on my part). I mean they had to have known this was coming right? You would think that acquiring a starter would have moved up to number one priority on their list. The fact that they walked away wIth ZERO starters after the trade deadline is just inexcusable.

 

The queston now is can this team deal with this (and i'm not talking about what they do in the post season, because that's pretty much a write off now). Do they have enough gas left with their remaining starters to hold off Cleveland and a surging Tampa team right on their tails in the wild card? Don't forget that Oakland is right behind them as well.

Edited September 8, 2019 by laloesch