Killebrew or Puckett?

[yarnivek1972]

More important to the franchise is Puckett.

 

Two rings beats no rings.

 

More iconic in baseball is Killebrew. I don’t think it is all hyperbole to say he was the most feared slugger of the 1960s - a decade in which Hank Aaron played much of his prime. Aaron drew far fewer walks in far more PA.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

 

Be interesting to see how Joe Mauer ends up in Twins lore. Hometown kid. Plus player. Hardest working guy in baseball. He could be a geat ambassador for the team (and the sport) in years to come.

I think Mauer will probably be pretty polarizing - as he was while he was playing. The problem, in my opinion, is that there wasn't a Game 6 or single great moment for Mauer like there have been for others. Even Santana had 17 strike out night against Texas, a great duel against Schilling on ESPN etc

 

Mauer's single most memorable play is (arguably) this play where he tags out Gardner at home by leaping at him. 

 

https://www.mlb.com/video/mauers-amazing-play/c-4608765

 

It's amazing. That was in his MVP year. I remember the old ESPN forums were full of condescending Yankee fans telling us that Mauer was going to be in pinstripes b/c we couldn't afford him. But as good as that play was, we still lost that game. 

 

I have my Rushmore and he misses the cut but by talent, he might deserve to be on it.

[yarnivek1972]

Mauer’s most memorable moment is the Phil Cuzzi “foul” ball.

[Dantes929]

 

Playoffs me-boy. I should have noted that when I talked about winning. Kirby won like hell in the postseason and sometimes did it almost all on his own. Also, you had 2 divisions and you had to win one of them to make playoffs during Puckett's time.

 

What is Joe's playoff record? I'll hang up and listen...

No.  Most definitely did not do it on his own.   If one player could do it on their own how do you explain 8 losing seasons out of 12?   All with about half a dozen other Twins HOFers by his side.     Puckett was awesome and deserves accolades but he was MVP of neither WS.       So much is happenstance.   Yes, the Twins had to win one of two divisions but they did it in 87 with a record that Joe's teams surpassed 5 times.    Of course I can't win any kind of argument on playoff success but if that is how you judge players then Bucky Dent is probably better than Puckett.    But he ain't.    Anyway, I think Mauer was great but Puckett was better.   Puckett was great but Harmon was probably better.    A lot of this is apples and oranges.   Different stats, different eras and WAR is not definitive.

[ScrapTheNickname]

 

Twins fans were lucky to have both. Different generations need different stars. I like apples and I like peaches. Don't forget Tony O.

... And Rodney!

[gunnarthor]

 

Mauer’s most memorable moment is the Phil Cuzzi “foul” ball.

I disagree but even if it is, it kinda proves the point. That play never officially happened and we lost that game, too.

[Platoon]

I loved Kirby Puckett as a player. What a joy to watch.

 

But he's nowhere near Harmon Killebrew as a baseball player.

 

Starting in 1959, when Killer became a regular, his OPS+ for the next 14 years, through 1972:

 

137

142

162

138

147

153

145

157

173

131

177

159

138

138

 

When Harmon retired he was 5th all time in HRs in MLB history. One MVP, Top 5 in MVP voting 6 times, named on MVP ballots 11 times. 11 time AS in an era when ASG rosters were smaller and meant something. Led the AL in HRs 6 times, RBIs 3 times, BBs four times. Full season OBPs over .400 four times, OPS over 1.000 twice, over .900 another seven.

 

Harmon was an iconic MLB player. As much as I loved watching Kirby, and he's a deserving HOFer, he's not in Harmon's league.

This. Thanks Chief!

[yarnivek1972]

I disagree but even if it is, it kinda proves the point. That play never officially happened and we lost that game, too.

Well, it literally changed baseball forever. Because that was the proverbial straw that led to instant replay.

[Blake]

 

Killebrew? Or Puckett?

oh, I forgot the rules: Yes.

[Nine of twelve]

 

Kirby is my all time favorite sports player.

Mine too. But as far as which of the two of them meant more to the Twins franchise, it's Harmon. No question.

[Nine of twelve]

 

I never saw Killebrew play

Jim Thome and Harmon Killebrew were the same player except Thome batted left-handed and Harmon right.

[yarnivek1972]

Mine too. But as far as which of the two of them meant more to the Twins franchise, it's Harmon. No question.

I just don’t think that’s true. Two rings beats no rings. Puckett is more important in the history of the Twins. As I said though, Harmon is the more iconic figure in MLB history.

 

It may not seem to make sense, but I actually think it does.

[Platoon]

It's important to remember that when the team moved to MN Killebrew was one of the main draws of this new Twins team. I loved watching Puckett play, and there are valid arguments to be made for both. I would understand how it's difficult for someone who did not see both play to appreciate how big Killebrew was to both the Twins and MLB in general. IIRC Jim Bouton called him the "Fat Kid", with deep respect!

[Wyotwinsfan]

I think Harmon helped establish the Twins in Minnesota and brought fans to the park. In those days very few games were televised so I learned about Harmon by listening to Herb Carneil call the game. He was so fun to listen to as he described the game in such detail. Some of the World Series games were played during the day in the middle of the week. This was a really different ownership to play for with Calvin Griffith.

 

More games were televised when Kirby played so I saw him play more. He was such a great player too. I remember the double header in Milwaukee when he went 10 for 11 and most importantly made a game saving catch.

 

So both great players, but I think I like Harmon better because he played when I was a kid. My dad used to complain about him striking out too much. He cut down on the strikeouts as he got older. His stats from his MVP year in 1969 are amazing. He played in 162 games, he hit .276, with 49 homeruns, 140 RBI, 84 strikeouts, and walked 145 times. That is a pretty good year.

 

Here is the link to an article by a sportswriter who met Harmon as a boy and then as a grown-up. It makes me happy to be a Twins' fan every time I read it.

 

https://www.inquirer.com/philly/sports/phillies/20110514_Harmon_Killebrew__A_player_makes_a_powerful_memory.html

[darin617]

 

Mauer probably will never be as loved as the other 2. Just because he didn't win much or at least didn't win in the playoffs at all. Great guy, great player, hometown kid, etc. 

 

I wouldn't put him anywhere near Killebrew, Carew, or Kirby though. Just too much losing while Joe was here and lots of people had the feeling that his contract was a large reason for that losing. 

I was never a Mauer fan to be honest. It always seemed like when there were runners on base he just ended up taking a walk and put all the pressure on Morneau to drive in the runs. For being a good hitter he seemed to have that bat glued to his shoulder with RISP.

[Nine of twelve]

 

I just don’t think that’s true. Two rings beats no rings. Puckett is more important in the history of the Twins. As I said though, Harmon is the more iconic figure in MLB history.

It may not seem to make sense, but I actually think it does.

We'll have to agree to strongly disagree.

[ashbury]

Reminder, this is a Killebrew-Puckett thread. Usually digressions are OK, but at least one of the names mentioned has a track record of sucking all the oxygen out of a thread.

[Doomtints]

 

Did you actually ever see Harmon play ?  If you had, you wouldn't be asking this question.  Harmon's HR were electric.  Most of the time they were hard hits, that went thru the infield before the fielders could move.  Most impressive were his high flys.  You didn't know if they would be caught or over the fence, but most of all, you didn't know if they would ever come down. 

 

Yes. And the Grand Canyon was created by Killebrew dragging his bat behind him.

[Doomtints]

 

Killer career OPS+: 143

Pucket career OPS+: 124

 

And that's with the last three years of Killebrew's career included, all three of which were below 100. Puckett had only one season with a higher OPS+ than Killer's career average.

 

I'll certainly grant Puckett played a great CF for a number of years. Killebrew was just fine as a first baseman...not as valuable, for sure, but the offensive difference is pretty overwhelming.

 

None of which should be taken as a knock on Puckett. I'd probably rather watch Kirby. But Harmon was the better and more valuable player.

 

The stat sheet makes Killebrew look like a first baseman, but in most years he was moved around and some a few years barely played at first. People who saw him play probably think of him as a third baseman or even an outfielder.

[yarnivek1972]

Killebrew played more games at first base than any other position. Almost two full seasons worth.

[Doomtints]

 

Wondering what you all think about Harmon Killebrew and Kirby Puckett. Which one meant more to the Twins franchise and which one was more iconic to Baseball? I would say Kirby but I suppose that's because I am too young to have ever watched Harmon play. I think my Dad would say Harmon. He has told me a lot about watching on TV Harmon blasting homeruns when my Dad was in his teens in the 60s. My Dad told me how Killebrew would launch what should have been a single into the outfield and they sometimes were able to throw him out at first. But then he also mentions how Killebrew would hit such majestic homeruns into the stands. 

But, for me, Kirby was the greatest Twin. When I wasn't trying to emulate Wade Boggs at the hot corner, I would always take the first pitch in honour of Kirby. I loved Kirby's enthusiasm for the game and I appreciated his loyalty to our team. From what I understand, he had a chance to go to his hometown team, White Sox, whom I dislike intensely, but he wanted to re-sign with the Twins! In my opinion, Kirby tried harder than 99 per cent of all players who ever played the game in history. I really appreciated him because the outcome of the game really did matter to him. I cannot stand when I see players smiling after a bitter loss and joking around while us fans are in mourning. Well, with Kirby, the game mattered to him and I appreciated that about him! 

 

Better hitter: KIllebrew

Better defender: Puckett

Nicer guy off the field: Killebrew

Nicer guy on the field: Puckett

Face of franchise: Push

Junk in the trunk: Push

Yearly Accolades (Batting titles, etc.): Puckett

Rings: Puckett

bWAR: Puckett

 

Long story short: Two cornerstone players from different eras. The Twins franchise is lucky to have two such storied players since the start of the expansion era. People will argue, but I can't think of many teams that have more than one, if even one, player of similar stature.

[Doomtints]

 

Killebrew played more games at first base than any other position. Almost two full seasons worth.

 

Obviously. Now take a look at the year by year breakdown. He played exactly one non-injury-shortened season at first.

 

Over his career, he played three non-consecutive seasons at primarily at first, two of those seasons were significantly shortened by injuries. The other years were spent as an outfielder or third baseman.

 

He was never "The Twins first baseman."  In fact, in the 1968 he was voted to the 1968 All-Star game at three positions: LF, 3B, and 1B. The Sporting News named him the best third baseman in 1970, etc. etc....

 

[jkcarew]

I'm not old enough to have seen Killer play. But this analysis seems to be leaving out half the game.

Their career OPS+ are within 5% of each other, and Puckett was an exceptional defender at a premium position, and also ran the bases pretty well.

Killebrew’s 143 means he was 43% over league average...Puckett’s 124 means he was 24% over league average. Not that close offensively. The peak years are even more in Killebrew’s favor...Kirby never had the ‘decline years’ Killebrew had at the end...due to the abrupt end of Kirby’s career. Team accomplishment wise, Killebrew played the vast majority of his career where only the best team record-wise got a crack at the WS (no divisional play).

 

I agree Kirby was the much more valuable defensive player and has the rings. Kirby might be my all-time favorite Twin..could raise the level of the team with his play and with his personality. But, I think Killebrew was more valuable in his prime...and was maybe the most nice, humble, and kind star to ever play for the franchise. I saw them both play. And I’ll never forget either.

[Doomtints]

 

Killebrew’s 143 means he was 43% over league average...Puckett’s 124 means he was 24% over league average.

 

Different eras. "Average" changes every year. Look at who has more WAR.

 

Yes, I would say Killebrew was a better hitter, but both were very good.

[yarnivek1972]

Better hitter: KIllebrew

Better defender: Puckett

Nicer guy off the field: Killebrew

Nicer guy on the field: Puckett

Face of franchise: Push

Junk in the trunk: Push

Yearly Accolades (Batting titles, etc.): Puckett

Rings: Puckett

bWAR: Puckett

 

Long story short: Two cornerstone players from different eras. The Twins franchise is lucky to have two such storied players since the start of the expansion era. People will argue, but I can't think of many teams that have more than one, if even one, player of similar stature.

Puckett led the league in batting once, RBI once and hits 4 times. Harmon led the league in HR SIX times and RBI 3 times.

 

I also must have missed Puckett’s MVP season. Harmon’s was in 1969.

[jkcarew]

Different eras. "Average" changes every year. Look at who has more WAR.

 

Yes, I would say Killebrew was a better hitter, but both were very good.

Not sure of the Point. Killebrew has more career WAR than Puckett as well...and again, considerably better peak years.

[jkcarew]

Jim Thome and Harmon Killebrew were the same player except Thome batted left-handed and Harmon right.

Compare Thome’s MVP voting to Killebrew’s.

[USAFChief]

Different eras. "Average" changes every year.

Are you familiar with what OPS+ does?

 

It accounts for the differences in era.

[Nine of twelve]

A reminder of the question in the original post:

Which one meant more to the Twins franchise and which one was more iconic to Baseball?

It may be just semantics, but the way this was worded reminds me of the distinction between best player and most valuable player. IMHO, getting into a statistical analysis misses much of the point of the question because the question is not only about who was the better baseball player. Taking everything into consideration, both performance on the field and what each man meant to the franchise from 1961 to the present, I don't think there's any doubt that the answer to this question is Harmon Killebrew.

[goulik]

You actually asked two questions and many of the responses have been answering the question “ which was your favorite”. I will choose to answer your two specific questions.

 

1) Who was most influential to the Twins franchise: Hands down, Killebrew. The next 40+ years every player that came to the majors was influenced by Killer on how to interact with fans, how to be a gentleman and a professional, how to represent the game, and how to sign your name. Killebrews impact on the franchise will never be matched.

 

2) Who is the most iconic to baseball? Kirby’s play and infectious attitude on the national stage in 2 World Championships outplayed Killebrew's majestic home runs in my mind. To us in Minnesota, this is an argument. To the baseball world as a whole, Kirby grabbed the nations attention and led to us giving him what was at the time an unprecedented contract to keep him from the East Coast.

 

I do not remember Killebrew as a player but I remember players like Kirby talking about him. If Kirby had lived longer he might have been able to impact our franchise in a similar way but in the third discussion, who is the greatest Twin? I’d have to say Harmon wins based on his long term affect and Tony O is third based on his long term impact.