Article: Trade Deadline Thread: How Far Would You Go to Add an Ace?

[SwainZag]

 

Of course, it is the age we live in.   No one tries to build solely from the farm anymore since free agency.   I always looked at the lack of playoff wins being due to our highly rated guys not doing the job rather than not being able to do the job.      We had a highly rated bull pen those years and if you look back the losses were ofteny due to guys like Rincon, Nathan, and Santana   giving up runs.    You can trade all you want but Nathan is still going to be your closer.        

 

I'd argue with you and say those losses were due to the Twins not scoring enough runs. I will add the Twins faced a lot of HOF caliber pitchers in that run.  Pettite, Mussina, Clemens, Sabathia, Rivera all multiple times.   Going back to 2002, here are the runs the Twins scored in playoff games in losing series:

 

2002: 2, 3, 1, 1, 5

2003: 3, 1, 1, 1

2004: 2, 6, 4, 5  (screw this series particularly) 

2006: 2, 2, 3

2009: 2, 3, 2

2010: 4, 2, 1

 

I don't know how you can just look back and pin those losses on the pitching staff.  21 games, scored 5 runs or more 3 times.  13 times 2 or less runs.  

 

Edited July 30, 2019 by SwainZag

[Otto von Ballpark]

Is it possible that asking for Buxton was done in response to a equally ridiculous, low-ball offer from the Twins? Just saying, we don't know the whole conversation.

I'm guessing talks were nowhere near actual offers, but I think this is the likely track. If the Twins maintained Lewis and Kirilloff were still untouchable, even for Syndergaard, it seems defensible to inquire about Buxton -- not so much to actually acquire him, but just to figure out what the Twins could possibly be thinking.

[Blake]

 

It's been mentioned.

How would you feel about it, if the Mets only asked about Buxton *after* the Twins said neither Lewis nor Kirilloff were available, as suggested by previous reports?

I agree a trade match is unlikely to be found in that situation, but I wouldn't call the Mets side ridiculous in those circumstances.

What I get for being to lazy to read through other comments.

 

I don't think one can afford to give up Buxton for Syndergaard. Yes, Syndergaard is a game changer..every fifth day. Buxton is a game changer every time he plays.

 

On top of that, I think disrupting the outfield core at this point in time is a bad idea.

Edited July 30, 2019 by Blake

[Darius]

No way I’d include Buxton or Sano in a trade right now.

 

Buxton won’t win MVP by any stretch, but given the Twins record with/without him, he’s got an argument for most valuable player in baseball.

 

Sano, even including his abysmal first month, has the second highest slugging percentage ever for a 26 year old third baseman (credit Puckett’s Pond). That’s right, second highest ever, only behind Nolan Arenado. In his las 25 games he’s slashing .321/.412/.714 with 9 HR and 22 RBIs. He’s basically the best hitter in the game over the last month and change.

 

You won’t get requisite value for either of them right now. Noah Syndergaard is not a better price long-term than those two, IMO. I’m definitely not throwing additional prospects in. Terrible trade.

[oldguywithanitch]

I've joined the team of don't trade the top prospects. Just get whatever bullpen arms you can for guys that won't make the 40 man over the winter.   I think with the easier schedule coming up, we'll rebuild a big lead on Cleveland and easily win the division.  Sure, I'd rather have Baumgarner, Syndegaard, Grienke, etc pitching a playoff game in Yankee Stadium but not at the expense of an extended decade long run of very good baseball.  This season is SO MUCH MORE FUN than the losing years.

Right, wrong or indifferent, it's my opinion.

Edited July 30, 2019 by oldguywithanitch

[Otto von Ballpark]

What I get for being to lazy to read through other comments.

 

I don't think one can afford to give up Buxton for Syndergaard. Yes, Syndergaard is a game changer..every fifth day. Buxton is a game changer every time he plays.

 

On top of that, I think disrupting the outfield core at this point in time is a bad idea.

Oh, I agree. I didn't mean to suggest a Buxton trade now would be reasonable. Just that the Mets asking about Buxton wouldn't really be notably more *unreasonable* than if the Twins said Lewis and Kirilloff were both off the table.

[Dantes929]

 

I'd argue with you and say those losses were due to the Twins not scoring enough runs. I will add the Twins faced a lot of HOF caliber pitchers in that run.  Pettite, Mussina, Clemens, Sabathia, Rivera all multiple times.   Going back to 2002, here are the runs the Twins scored in playoff games in losing series:

 

2002: 2, 3, 1, 1, 5

2003: 3, 1, 1, 1

2004: 2, 6, 4, 5  (screw this series particularly) 

2006: 2, 2, 3

2009: 2, 3, 2

2010: 4, 2, 1

 

I don't know how you can just look back and pin those losses on the pitching staff.  21 games, scored 5 runs or more 3 times.  13 times 2 or less runs.  

Yeah, 2004 was a tough one   Two extra inning games.   After winning the first in New York we had them on the ropes in the 2nd game and Nathan had the lead in the 12th and gave up 2.    I don't even blame him so much for that one because he pitched longer than normal but if we win that one maybe it changes everything and the Yankees are talking about the Twins curse instead of the other way around.    The 2nd game in 2009 was the most painful for me.   2 run lead in the 9th and I had $100 on the Twins but when I saw Nathan warming up I asked everyone I was with if they wanted my ticket at cost and I got no takers.    One game can change everything.    I really wasn't trying to pick on anyone or any element of the game.  The offense those years was plenty good but just didn't come through at the right times.  Twins made trades and got free agents but it came down to winnable games not being won.   I don't know what trades or free agents would have changed that.

[SwainZag]

 

Yeah, 2004 was a tough one   Two extra inning games.   After winning the first in New York we had them on the ropes in the 2nd game and Nathan had the lead in the 12th and gave up 2.    I don't even blame him so much for that one because he pitched longer than normal but if we win that one maybe it changes everything and the Yankees are talking about the Twins curse instead of the other way around.    The 2nd game in 2009 was the most painful for me.   2 run lead in the 9th and I had $100 on the Twins but when I saw Nathan warming up I asked everyone I was with if they wanted my ticket at cost and I got no takers.    One game can change everything.    I really wasn't trying to pick on anyone or any element of the game.  The offense those years was plenty good but just didn't come through at the right times.  Twins made trades and got free agents but it came down to winnable games not being won.   I don't know what trades or free agents would have changed that.

 

That game sucked too.  The Mauer foul ball call.  Either way, the Twins rarely put up enough runs to win against those Yankee teams.

[Dantes929]

 

Highly rated like Jason Tyner taking DH ABs in the post season?

Tyner hit .312 that year.   He DH'd very little during the regular season and I can't figure out why he was DH'ing and Rondell White was playing left field.   Even worse, in the first game Phil Nevin was the DH.   I don't even remember a Phil Nevin.  Our outfield that year was Ford, Hunter and Cuddyer.    Tyner came in for Ford when Ford couldn't sustain his prior year success.    I guess a trade for another outfielder Might have helped but like I said .312 ain't bad.   Kubel was on the team also but doesn't appear to be on the playoff roster.

[SwainZag]

 

Tyner hit .312 that year.   He DH'd very little during the regular season and I can't figure out why he was DH'ing and Rondell White was playing left field.   Even worse, in the first game Phil Nevin was the DH.   I don't even remember a Phil Nevin.  Our outfield that year was Ford, Hunter and Cuddyer.    Tyner came in for Ford when Ford couldn't sustain his prior year success.    I guess a trade for another outfielder Might have helped but like I said .312 ain't bad.   Kubel was on the team also but doesn't appear to be on the playoff roster.

 

Kubel had knee problems off and on all year that year and Shannon Stewart was a starter who missed alot of the season with injuries as well.

 

That series I will never forget Frank Thomas taking Johan deep twice in Game 1, and Torii Hunter making a very ill advised dive a fly ball in a tie game that resulted in a 2-run inside the park HR for Mark Kotsay.  Frustrating times.

[Otto von Ballpark]

That series I will never forget Frank Thomas taking Johan deep twice in Game 1

Actually just once off Johan -- the second HR, in the 9th inning, was off of Crain, and proved to be the decisive run.

 

I was at the game. A weekday noon start at the Metrodome. What a bummer of an afternoon.

Edited July 30, 2019 by spycake

[SpicyGarvSauce]

 

Actually just once off Johan -- the second HR, in the 9th inning, was off of Crain, and proved to be the decisive run.

I was at the game. A weekday noon start at the Metrodome. What a bummer of an afternoon.

I had tickets to the games as well - in particular, this one was an absolute zoo. We got up there, the parking situation was a clown show, so we decided to scrap going to the game and went to a local Buffalo Wild Wings to watch the game...obviously it was disappointing.

[Dantes929]

 

That game sucked too.  The Mauer foul ball call.  Either way, the Twins rarely put up enough runs to win against those Yankee teams.

Yeah, Punto and Gomez had base running gaffs too if I remember right that cost some runs.    I don;t mean to pick on Nathan cuz I loved his career here, but that year the Yankees were 17-17 when the Twins came in to New York and the first game Nathan had a two run lead in the 9th and gave up 3 runs.   The Yankees went on to have come back walk off wins in all three games.   Later the Yankees credited that win and that series as the spark for their WS championship season.   I thought it had the opposite effect on the Twins and was the game that completely got in Nathan's head, IMO.    He actually pitched well in that game and would have beat anyone else and the Yankees most days but I think it was that game that made him look really scared in the playoffs that year.  Of course wins in any of the playoff games might not have changed the outcome of the series, but who knows.

[Mike Sixel]

My theory is that team was good, not awesome. If you lose in the playoffs every year, it is extreme luck, which seems unlikely. They played in a bad division, which helped their record.

 

I hope this FO makes moves that improve the team when they have a wide open window.

[Dantes929]

 

Kubel had knee problems off and on all year that year and Shannon Stewart was a starter who missed alot of the season with injuries as well.

 

That series I will never forget Frank Thomas taking Johan deep twice in Game 1, and Torii Hunter making a very ill advised dive a fly ball in a tie game that resulted in a 2-run inside the park HR for Mark Kotsay.  Frustrating times.

We were 6-3 against the A's, had 96 wins on the year, home field advantage and Santana on the mound.   Many national experts were picking the Twins to win it all.   Ironically, the team that was way more likely to fold because they lost 3 in a row at home to the 100 loss Royals to lose the division ended up thumping the Yankees of all teams, sweeping the A's and then losing 4 games to 1 against the 82 win Cards.   That season more than any other influence me to think that you want the best team going into the playoffs but the really, really important thing is to make the playoffs.

[Dantes929]

 

My theory is that team was good, not awesome. If you lose in the playoffs every year, it is extreme luck, which seems unlikely. They played in a bad division, which helped their record.

 

I hope this FO makes moves that improve the team when they have a wide open window.

Whoops.   My prior response would have been better on this post.   Twins were better than the A;s.   Yankees were better than the Twins but not sweeping every game better.    I don't know if luck is the right word.    Twins were capable of doing better.    I hope the Twins improve as well but I would rather have 6 years of 10% chance than three years of 20% chance.   That's just theory.   If the Twins can get Kennedy and all it costs is money and if they can get Thor or Lynn without it costing a big overpay, even if it is one of the top 2, in prospects I am all for it.  

[SwainZag]

 

My theory is that team was good, not awesome. If you lose in the playoffs every year, it is extreme luck, which seems unlikely. They played in a bad division, which helped their record.

 

I hope this FO makes moves that improve the team when they have a wide open window.

 

I don't think it's a theory, the Twins had a lot of good teams, but rarely were they dominant.  It just happens more times than not they faced a complete juggernaut in the Yankees in a the playoffs.  Most of those teams had more All Star and HOF caliber players than some teams have ever had in their team's history.  Not that I am using it as an excuse, but it needs to be noted.

 

But this year, yes please make some moves.

[mikelink45]

I have to add another thought. The cano trade has been lambasted everywhere for good reason, and they could be a little shell shocked. They want to make sure now to be a winner of any trade that comes up or they have to face the wrath of the New York fan.

[Rosterman]

Buxton and Sanoa s trade bait? Depends on the return. Both are becoming a tad more valuable, yet still not expensive enough that the Twins need to throw a lot of money at them. Have to think about what they MIGHT still become and at what cost. You got Buxton for three more seasons, Sano for two more after this season. They took a hit in value after 2018. Still not CHOICE pieces in the cheme of things. Wish replacements were a tad closer. Big decision for both side this winter.

[SwainZag]

 

Buxton and Sanoa s trade bait? Depends on the return. Both are becoming a tad more valuable, yet still not expensive enough that the Twins need to throw a lot of money at them. Have to think about what they MIGHT still become and at what cost. You got Buxton for three more seasons, Sano for two more after this season. They took a hit in value after 2018. Still not CHOICE pieces in the cheme of things. Wish replacements were a tad closer. Big decision for both side this winter.

 

After a brutal start Sano has an OPS of of .914, (which would be 7th in AL if he had enough PA to qualify) and Buxton's real only hold back is he cannot seem to stay healthy, he's having a better season than he did in 2016 when he put up 5.1 WAR.  I would say they are both pretty choice pieces.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Buxton and Sanoa s trade bait? Depends on the return. Both are becoming a tad more valuable, yet still not expensive enough that the Twins need to throw a lot of money at them. Have to think about what they MIGHT still become and at what cost. You got Buxton for three more seasons, Sano for two more after this season. They took a hit in value after 2018. Still not CHOICE pieces in the cheme of things. Wish replacements were a tad closer. Big decision for both side this winter.

You're lamenting that replacements aren't closer for a guy who has two more years of control and another guy that has three more years of control?

 

What about Rosario? Kirilloff will likely be ready in a year or so, that's a pretty good replacement offering. Lewis isn't far behind him.

 

No team has replacements ready for 24-26 year old players at every position. If they did, that team would have the most historically awesome minor league system ever.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

How Far Would You Go to Add an Ace?