Positional flexibility

[Riverbrian]

The secret isn't so much the flexibility. The secret is the depth. 

 

When you have honest to God depth like we have this year. You have no choice, you have to have flexibility. If you don't have flexibility... the depth that you have acquired will be wasted and pointless. If Arraez can only play 2B and Schoop can only play 2B... then every time you play Arraez, Schoop must sit and vice versa. The fact that Arraez can play a decent LF and 3B along with 2B gives you the chance to get that bat into the lineup without killing Schoop in the process. Other players on the roster can share the burden if you will. 

 

If you choose a starting 9... you are forced to roster lesser players for the other 3-4 position player spots. Because if you have 12-13 fairly equal players there would be no reason to go with a starting 9 and kill the other 3-4 fairly equal players. 

 

By not rostering lesser players (LaMarre for example). A team can survive injuries, get occasional rest, compete against each other for playing time. Become Bulletproof. Become Logan Morrison resistant. 

 

By not rostering lesser players... You have 12 - 13 roster positions that can be used for developing talent, for helping us win or for increasing trade value instead of just 9 for that purpose with 3 to 4 throw away's. 12 developing players instead of 9 increases your odds of actually developing it. 

 

And... And... If you are going to roster the kind of depth the Twins currently have, which is 12-13 players who can compete with each other for playing time. You must have flexibility to accommodate... there is no other option. Depth is the secret... flexibility is the by-product. 

 

This 2019 team was exactly what I was talking about last year. This 2019 team was exactly what I was begging for and exactly what I was meeting resistance over.

 

Here it is now... right in front of us all, we've been watching it since the start of the season and yet so many still can't see it despite watching it.

 

We still have posters who want stick Arraez into an every day 2B job next year and just throw away his ability to play 3B and LF. We have posters afraid that Arraez playing occasional LF means that Rosario can't play LF in 2020. They can't see it. 

 

This discussion started by Stringer can't even discuss the topic without it turning into a "Is Polanco good enough to play SS every day" discussion instead. I don't understand the lack of understanding. 

 

Just watch, it's working. Old habits are hard to break I guess. 

[DocBauer]

I think it's even more complicated than the bold. Positioning and instincts play a role that we, as viewers focused on the batter and ball off the bat, almost never see unless you're there live to see it unfold without cameras.

 

I call it the "Jim Edmonds effect". Jim was a pretty good centerfielder. Not stellar, but pretty good. I lived in SoCal during his prime seasons. He wasn't awesome defensively, but everyone seemed to think he was.

 

Because the guy would lay himself out for a play and make it look spectacular on a highlight reel. It didn't matter whether he was maybe positioned incorrectly and simply wasn't that fast, his Charlie Hustle effect made all the difference in the world to viewers on TV.

 

But if you were to put, say, Torii Hunter next to Jim Edmonds and watch them both play center, it'd be pretty ****ing clear who was *actually* good and who made plays *look* good within a few innings. Where Edmonds would dive and look spectacular, Hunter would glide in and catch it on his feet. Same ball, one is "spectacular" while the other is "nice catch".

 

And then compare them to a guy like Buxton, who is better than either of them by a considerable margin.

Agree 100%!

 

Defensive metrics are great. But there also comes a point where the eye test matters. It's real, not abstract.

 

Think about Ozzie and Gagne at SS, for example, a few years removed for sure. Ozzie was the real deal! But Gagne was about as true a defensive SS you could find. And yet he never got the credit he deserved.

 

You are correct about great gloves at certain positions. And it would be great if you could have a great glove everywhere. But we know that's simply not possible. And that brings us back to the eye test, doesn't it?

 

This team, IMO, is very solid defensively. The biggest problem I have seen, eye test again, are some stupid plays where they tried too hard to make the big out.

 

Overall, I think the flexibility has been wonderful.

[DocBauer]

The secret isn't so much the flexibility. The secret is the depth. 

 

When you have honest to God depth like we have this year. You have no choice, you have to have flexibility. If you don't have flexibility... the depth that you have acquired will be wasted and pointless. If Arraez can only play 2B and Schoop can only play 2B... then every time you play Arraez, Schoop must sit and vice versa. The fact that Arraez can play a decent LF and 3B along with 2B gives you the chance to get that bat into the lineup without killing Schoop in the process. Other players on the roster can share the burden if you will. 

 

If you choose a starting 9... you are forced to roster lesser players for the other 3-4 position player spots. Because if you have 12-13 fairly equal players there would be no reason to go with a starting 9 and kill the other 3-4 fairly equal players. 

 

By not rostering lesser players (LaMarre for example). A team can survive injuries, get occasional rest, compete against each other for playing time. Become Bulletproof. Become Logan Morrison resistant. 

 

By not rostering lesser players... You have 12 - 13 roster positions that can be used for developing talent, for helping us win or for increasing trade value instead of just 9 for that purpose with 3 to 4 throw away's. 12 developing players instead of 9 increases your odds of actually developing it. 

 

And... And... If you are going to roster the kind of depth the Twins currently have, which is 12-13 players who can compete with each other for playing time. You must have flexibility to accommodate... there is no other option. Depth is the secret... flexibility is the by-product. 

 

This 2019 team was exactly what I was talking about last year. This 2019 team was exactly what I was begging for and exactly what I was meeting resistance over.

 

Here it is now... right in front of us all, we've been watching it since the start of the season and yet so many still can't see it despite watching it.

 

We still have posters who want stick Arraez into an every day 2B job next year and just throw away his ability to play 3B and LF. We have posters afraid that Arraez playing occasional LF means that Rosario can't play LF in 2020. They can't see it. 

 

This discussion started by Stringer can't even discuss the topic without it turning into a "Is Polanco good enough to play SS every day" discussion instead. I don't understand the lack of understanding. 

 

Just watch, it's working. Old habits are hard to break I guess. 

Kind of funny, to a few how the Cubs and Astros got kuddos for putting guys in different positions to put the best lineup on the field, but the Twins doing the same thing isn't the same.

 

Stating, this is a mild debate and not singling out anyone!

 

You can love Rocco and his usage, or not. But he really is using his roster to the max at this point. Everyone plays, and everyone, hopefully, contributes. I'm disappointed as hell in Cave, and not crazy about Arreaz learning the OF on the fly due to injury, but It's still working.

 

Honestly, if you really look at total roster flexibility, you'd see it in the pen also. Parker, better or worse, has largely been given the 9th, with Rogers being the Fireman. We need help here, of course but Rocco is not stagnate in roles. I like that!

[Kelly Vance]

Defense is boring. Unless it's bad. 

Supposed to be that way.

 

The Twins' flexibility has allowed them to weather some minor injury storms and play through the injuries without too much of a drop off.  Good teams find a way. 

 

 

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Agree 100%!

Defensive metrics are great. But there also comes a point where the eye test matters. It's real, not abstract.

Think about Ozzie and Gagne at SS, for example, a few years removed for sure. Ozzie was the real deal! But Gagne was about as true a defensive SS you could find. And yet he never got the credit he deserved.

You are correct about great gloves at certain positions. And it would be great if you could have a great glove everywhere. But we know that's simply not possible. And that brings us back to the eye test, doesn't it?

This team, IMO, is very solid defensively. The biggest problem I have seen, eye test again, are some stupid plays where they tried too hard to make the big out.

Overall, I think the flexibility has been wonderful.

I'm sorry Doc but you missed my entire point. The eye test didn't really apply to Edmonds because he made plays look hard. But if you put all those plays in context, he wasn't very good because a guy like Hunter made those same plays look easy.

 

I'm not bashing Edmonds, he was good... but he wasn't great.

 

If you look at the defensive metrics - which I haven't - I suspect Hunter was MUCH better, even though Edmonds was heralded as a great centerfielder by the eye test.

 

And, again, haven't checked but I bet Buxton is better than either of them.

 

The eyes lie.

[Platoon]

Where’s Brian on this? Surprised he hasn’t written several lengthy posts on the matter!

Update: Brian is alive and well!

[AlwaysinModeration]

I agree with Brian / Stringer that defensive positional flexibility has been an important part of the team’s success this year.

 

Two points I would add to this discussion.

 

1. In addition to defensive flexibility, I think that Falvey and Levine have done a good job of trying to upgrade every spot on the roster they possibly could. This has resulted in a deep roster that Rocco can use successfully. In the past, the 23-27 guys on the roster were really marginal, and it never felt like Ryan was trying to get anything better than mediocre with those fringe roster spots.

 

2. In addition to “defensive positional flexibility” and “maximize every roster spot”, the third tenet I am seeing emerge is “ability to put bat on ball.” I was thinking about this when Buxton botched the suicide squeeze play. He’s way down the list of players I would want doing that. When you look at the roster, you see Astudillo clearly at the top, followed by Arraez, Polanco, and Rosario. Those four guys have elite contact skills. I think that skill is almost becoming underrated in the age of launch angles and strikeouts. But come playoff time, I think the ability to put the bat on the ball becomes more valuable. (Also makes me think Kirilloff might have a better future with the club than Lewis.)

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Oh, I misunderstood your point. Yes, this team has amazing flexibility.

 

And I'd never make the statement "all outfield spots are the same" or "third/first are interchangeable".

 

My only point was that flexibility does not equate greatness. The Twins are decent in the field but hardly exceptional. That's what you get with flexibility.

 

Whereas if you're great defensively, you're likely locked into a few players. Should one or two of them falter, you suddenly become mediocre or worse.

 

Case in point, look at Minnesota and Cleveland. Minnesota has no real stars, Cleveland has 4-5. Minnesota has 25 legit MLB players (probably more like 27-28), Cleveland has about 15.

 

There's a reason why Minnesota is six games up and I suspect that number will begin to grow again as time goes on. Cleveland had injuries, which sucks... but their injuries led them to a record under .500. Minnesota had a slew of injuries and has yet to play under .500 for even a week.

 

If you can lose 3-4 players in two weeks and still play .500 ball, you're going to do okay for yourself.

Yarni was responding to a post up thread that seemed to me to over simplify flexibility, I was agreeing and providing additional context, but apparently not very clear on my stance

[Riverbrian]

 

Kind of funny, to a few how the Cubs and Astros got kuddos for putting guys in different positions to put the best lineup on the field, but the Twins doing the same thing isn't the same.

Stating, this is a mild debate and not singling out anyone!

You can love Rocco and his usage, or not. But he really is using his roster to the max at this point. Everyone plays, and everyone, hopefully, contributes. I'm disappointed as hell in Cave, and not crazy about Arreaz learning the OF on the fly due to injury, but It's still working.

Honestly, if you really look at total roster flexibility, you'd see it in the pen also. Parker, better or worse, has largely been given the 9th, with Rogers being the Fireman. We need help here, of course but Rocco is not stagnate in roles. I like that!

 

Honestly Doc,

 

Very few around here knew what the Cubs and Astros were doing. They got Kuddo's for winning but very few knew how they were winning.  

 

Very few knew what a Marwin was, "Yeah but what position will he play?". 

[Riverbrian]

 

I agree with Brian / Stringer that defensive positional flexibility has been an important part of the team’s success this year.

Two points I would add to this discussion.

1. In addition to defensive flexibility, I think that Falvey and Levine have done a good job of trying to upgrade every spot on the roster they possibly could. This has resulted in a deep roster that Rocco can use successfully. In the past, the 23-27 guys on the roster were really marginal, and it never felt like Ryan was trying to get anything better than mediocre with those fringe roster spots.

 

 

Without Flexibility... If you have Polanco at SS, there is no reason to acquire Simmons to play SS. 

 

With Flexibility... Polanco can play 2B and 3B or maybe LF and Simmons can play SS. You can perpetually upgrade every time the opportunity comes along. 

 

Without Flexibility... If you have Polanco at SS, you pass on Simmons and you acquire a lesser player to backup Polanco at SS.

 

This is what Terry Ryan did and this is why it felt the way it did. 

 

 

[ashbury]

I mean, I guess...? It's kind of like saying "he's in the NFL so he's very good at football".

It's more like saying, I'm not sold on his arm at SS but the manager keeps writing his name in the lineup so I guess I'll let Rocco drag me along on this one.

[USAFChief]

 

Honestly Doc,

 

Very few around here knew what the Cubs and Astros were doing. They got Kuddo's for winning but very few knew how they were winning.  

 

Very few knew what a Marwin was, "Yeah but what position will he play?". 

I think you're overstating your case. Everyone knows what a utility player is. Cesar Tovar says "hi."

[Riverbrian]

I think you're overstating your case. Everyone knows what a utility player is. Cesar Tovar says "hi."

I am overstating my case. I’ve tried expressing nuance and found it doesn’t work.

 

Another over statement from me. Most know what utility is but too many don’t get what super utility is... like Marwin.

 

Why did we pay all that money to Marwin? Because he can play multiple positions. Why do we need him to play multiple positions? So we don’t have to play Taylor Motter.

[Doomtints]

 

The roster management this year isn’t even close to years past.

 

It's not? Here's last year. I see 70% of the roster playing more than one fielding position. What do you see?

 

Name                         PosSummary
Tyler Austin                      1B-DH
Logan Morrison                 1B-LF-DH
Joe Mauer                    1B-RF-DH-C
Brian Dozier                         2B
Logan Forsythe                 2B-LF-DH
Gregorio Petit           2B-SS-3B-1B-DH
Miguel Sano                    3B-1B-DH
Eduardo Escobar                3B-SS-2B
Bobby Wilson                          C
Juan Graterol                         C
Jason Castro                          C
Chris Gimenez              C-1B-P-3B-DH
Mitch Garver                  C-1B-P-DH
Willians Astudillo   C-3B-2B-LF-P-CF-DH
Byron Buxton                      CF-DH
Ryan LaMarre              CF-LF-RF-P-DH
Jake Cave                   CF-RF-LF-DH
Eddie Rosario            LF-RF-CF-3B-DH
Johnny Field                LF-RF-CF-DH
Taylor Motter               RF-3B-SS-2B
Max Kepler                  RF-CF-1B-DH
Robbie Grossman                RF-LF-DH
Jorge Polanco                        SS
Ehire Adrianza        SS-3B-1B-2B-LF-DH

[DocBauer]

I'm sorry Doc but you missed my entire point. The eye test didn't really apply to Edmonds because he made plays look hard. But if you put all those plays in context, he wasn't very good because a guy like Hunter made those same plays look easy.

 

I'm not bashing Edmonds, he was good... but he wasn't great.

 

If you look at the defensive metrics - which I haven't - I suspect Hunter was MUCH better, even though Edmonds was heralded as a great centerfielder by the eye test.

 

And, again, haven't checked but I bet Buxton is better than either of them.

 

The eyes lie.

Sorry Brock, I should have been more clear in my comments. I wasn't specifically speaking about your comparison. I was simply stating that watching someone daily can allow for appreciation of their defense, whereas just a fielding or error statistic might not indicate their true, daily ability.

[Riverbrian]

 

 

It's not? Here's last year. I see 70% of the roster playing more than one fielding position. What do you see?

 

Name                         PosSummary
Tyler Austin                      1B-DH
Logan Morrison                 1B-LF-DH
Joe Mauer                    1B-RF-DH-C
Brian Dozier                         2B
Logan Forsythe                 2B-LF-DH
Gregorio Petit           2B-SS-3B-1B-DH
Miguel Sano                    3B-1B-DH
Eduardo Escobar                3B-SS-2B
Bobby Wilson                          C
Juan Graterol                         C
Jason Castro                          C
Chris Gimenez              C-1B-P-3B-DH
Mitch Garver                  C-1B-P-DH
Willians Astudillo   C-3B-2B-LF-P-CF-DH
Byron Buxton                      CF-DH
Ryan LaMarre              CF-LF-RF-P-DH
Jake Cave                   CF-RF-LF-DH
Eddie Rosario            LF-RF-CF-3B-DH
Johnny Field                LF-RF-CF-DH
Taylor Motter               RF-3B-SS-2B
Max Kepler                  RF-CF-1B-DH
Robbie Grossman                RF-LF-DH
Jorge Polanco                        SS
Ehire Adrianza        SS-3B-1B-2B-LF-DH

 

 

What do I see? 

 

I see a team that was completely unprepared, traditionally shallow and not flexible. If they would have set up for depth and flexibility before the season started... you wouldn't be able to list Logan Morrison or Logan Forsythe and others as part of your 70%. They were unprepared and forced to shove guys into positions under emergency.  

 

Taking a closer look at that 70% you present. 

 

Logan Morrison - 3 Innings total in LF. Why? They got caught with their pants down by not being flexible. 

 

Joe Mauer - One Third of an inning in RF and one pitch at C. You really can't include Joe as an example of Flexibility. 

 

Logan Forsythe - Stood in Left Field for a second... No Outs Recorded. 

 

Eddie Rosario - 2 Innings at 3B... Team Caught with Pants down... The rest is typical outfield play. 

 

Garver - 13 Innings at 1B

 

Gimenez - 2 starts and 24 Innings at 1B in September

 

Wilson, Graterol and Castro - Just Catchers... Typical... nothing out of the ordinary.

 

Lamarre, Cave, Field and Grossman... Outfielders being asked to play Outfield.

 

Miguel Sano - Played 1B and 3B. OK... a little typical corner infield flex. Nearly every team will ask their 3b to grab 1B mitt. Nothing out of the ordinary.

 

This reduces that 70% down to the following players. 

 

Gregorio Petit - Molitor didn't want to play him... He is that typical Utility guy who doesn't play. 

 

Taylor Motter - That typical utility guy that is thrown wherever on exceedingly rare occasions because Molitor didn't want to play him. 

 

Eduardo Escobar - He could be a fine example of a super utility player other than our chosen method of deployment, which is playing one static position at a time. Polanco suspended... Escobar becomes the everyday SS. Sano gets hurt and sent down to Ft. Myers. Escobar moves to everyday 3B with Adrianza taking over as the everyday SS. 

 

Adrianza - That typical utility player that every team has, who becomes necessary to play when injuries occur. 

 

And finally

 

Willans Astudillo - Who was called up to be a utility player... didn't play... sent back down and was then called up to be a catcher. 

 

 

Every team in baseball has a Adrianza, Escobar, Motter and Petit. They are called bench players. 

 

Baldelli plays all of his players more often and purposely starts a handful of them in multiple positions to get this done. It can't be compared with any past Minnesota Twins teams. 

 

 

 

 

[Platoon]

Baldelli is sort of a enigma to me as a manager. Many of the traditional cause of fan discontent over a manager come (came) from in game moves. With then "new" form of baseball, there is little of that to discuss. That sort of leaves bull pen moves and roster use. I won't include lineup order, since we have apparently come to the conclusion that where a player bats has minsicule affect on the game? Overall I like much of what Rocco is doing. He is somewhat hamstrung by the lower tier of his pen, and I have a queasy feeling in my tummy that if the pennant race gets tight, he will over use Rogers. But that remains to be seen. It's awfully easy to coddle your relievers when you are on an offensive tear and are up by 7 all the time. One last thought. A lot of the Twins flexibility issues in the past were compliments of Molitor. One had to be semi vision impaired to fail to notice that some callups never got their shoes dusty. The FO can only call them up.

[DocBauer]

To be clear about flexibility, taking player A, who is a 1B and shoving him out in LF because there is nobody else, is not being flexible. It's called desperation.

 

True roster flexibility means having a guy who can contribute offensively, to at least some degree, and not be a butcher in the field when and where you play him.

 

Witness Gonzalez and Adrianza. Also include Astudillo in that discussion. I know there are mixed views/opinions on Astudillo. But he is at least decent in the field and has a solid bat. Yes, some inconsistencies around his injury, but he has shown himself to be a solid bat when healthy. Nobody claimed he was Gold Glove anywhere. But solid and useful.

 

We could also talk about the surprising Arreaz.

 

The roster flexibility is excellent and has also helped cover for injuries.

[stringer bell]

Different players, different levels. I’ve called Gonzalez an “unassigned regular”. He will get playing time no matter what. Adrianza is a proven three-position infielder who is capable of playing corner OF and first. Arraez is “lightning in a bottle”, hitting almost .400.

 

As for Astudillo, his ability to play infield and outfield and his contact abilities combined with ability to catch make him useful on a major league roster.

[Doomtints]

What happened here is a couple of you liked the OP's definition of roster flexibility, then attacked that same definition when it was shown to be a poor definition.

 

It's fun to be a mod, right?

[Riverbrian]

 

What happened here is a couple of you liked the OP's definition of roster flexibility, then attacked that same definition when it was shown to be a poor definition.

 

It's fun to be a mod, right?

 

Not even close.

 

1. I disagree with you. You disagree with me. You asked me "What do I see?" and I answered. If you think that is an attack, Prove it and I will walk from this site forever due to over sensitivity.  

 

2. Shown to be a poor definition? I strongly disagree. 

 

3. And being a Mod is absolutely no fun at all. 

[USAFChief]

Not even close.

 

 

 

3. And being a Mod is absolutely no fun at all.

But the pay makes up for it.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

The roster management this year isn’t even close to years past.

I've hoped that at some point, someone comes up with WAR for managers... because let's face it... a manager that consistently puts his/her team in the best place to win over the long run will vulture a few wins...

 

I do think this FO figured that part out... and so far, it looks like Rocco was the right choice. Sure, he makes the occasional mistake, but he's much better than anyone I've seen in Minnesota in my life.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

Yikes, no. There's a reason why so few third basemen are in the Hall. It's an underappreciated and quite unique position.

 

Unless you mean that a third baseman can slide to first base, just like a centerfielder can slide to right/left field.

 

But the inverse is certainly not true.

I still to this day don't understand why Mauer didn't play some 3rd... in the name of that flexibility. It's not like he didn't have the arm for it... nor have we been trotting out some standouts there over there years.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

But the pay makes up for it.

wait wut?

[ashbury]

 

But the pay makes up for it.

 

wait wut?

[Battle ur tail off]

 

Polanco could be one of the biggest beneficiaries of the defensive shift of anyone in MLB. That times have changed is a good deal for him. Leaving him at the traditional SS position would expose both his arm and his lack of range. Since he now plays roughly a third of the time around or on the right side of 2nd base, his defensive flaws are mitigated. His offense is what I always expected. It's what will guarantee him a roster spot in MLB for the foreseeable, and hopefully considerable future.

 

You always expected him to be an All star? Towards the top of the batting title race? I know I didn't expect him to be at least this good. No one really predicted him to be this good of a hitter. If they had, he would have been a top 20 prospect in baseball.