Angie Valeria

[gunnarthor]

One of the reasons I posted this thread was because immigrant rights are in the cross-hairs. The current GOP is extremely hostile to immigrants. They've fanned flames of xenophobia and racism to win votes. They've tried to scare the more gullible among us that immigrants harm our economies or cause crime. It's ugly and those people should be ashamed. If there's an afterlife they should be forced to answer for those sins.

 

I also posted this because Angie Valeria was a little girl who died senselessly and we should all have had a moment where we felt ill that this young girl died. If you didn't, you might want to consider why. We shouldn't ignore the policies of our elected officials and how they impact people and we should put a face to these policies.

 

But mostly, I posted this because people should know who Angie was.

[PseudoSABR]

 

STOP.

 

Nowhere did I assign blame for anything to anyone, least of all to those seeking entry, for not understanding asylum requirements or for anything else, and it's ridiculous for you to claim otherwise.

 

But since you brought up the idea of blame for the false perception among immigrants of asylum as a magic password to live in the United States, how would it be ANYONE but the party that abuses the word EVERY DAY in the media?

 

And no, s#!^canning the definition of asylum isn't the answer. Neither is the false choice of 'unlimited immigrant entry or you're guilty of negligent homicide!'

 

Should we offer immediate short-term aid to destitute people who show up at our borders? YES. Can we? No, not as a nation, not as long as that aid is contingent on the outcome of an ongoing partisan battle over legislation that is tied to DACA, Dreamers, and a dozen other issues that are of absolutely no use to a desperate family on the wrong side of the river.

 

In the end, though, nothing will be resolved as long as economic distress is the sole determinant for prospective immigrants instead of the mutual best interests of immigrants and our nation.

Apologies for whatever personal tinge I embedded in my general complaint. I took your post as an opportunity to battle a developing theme to which the logic you laid out may apply; that I seemed to rope you in was unintentional and not at all deliberate. 

 

That said, if you think owning our country's policies towards much of the American Continent for last several decades (whether regime exchange or drug policy, etc.) bears upon the exodus of so many from such countries is a bridge too far for us to bear, I just disagree.  It is not magic, or ****canning to suggest that the idyllic definition of asylum is ill-suited to the current crisis. 

 

There are humans at our border, by the hundreds of thousands.  This will not go away.  We complain of income inequity in this country, but globally, that inequality is a humanitarian crisis waiting to happen.  Like walls, guns, millions of people at the border kinda crisis. We need policy to avoid that, and we need it now. I'm open to ideas, I have some of my own.

[ewen21]

 

One of the reasons I posted this thread was because immigrant rights are in the cross-hairs. The current GOP is extremely hostile to immigrants. They've fanned flames of xenophobia and racism to win votes. They've tried to scare the more gullible among us that immigrants harm our economies or cause crime. It's ugly and those people should be ashamed. If there's an afterlife they should be forced to answer for those sins.

 

I also posted this because Angie Valeria was a little girl who died senselessly and we should all have had a moment where we felt ill that this young girl died. If you didn't, you might want to consider why. We shouldn't ignore the policies of our elected officials and how they impact people and we should put a face to these policies.

 

But mostly, I posted this because people should know who Angie was.

 

 

This has nothing to do with the GOP or any American citizen.  You tapped into the mutual anger a number of people have on this site toward the current administration and you played the blame game.  

 

I, for one, do not think illegal immigrants are all criminals.  Non documented entry should not be allowed for a particular of people simply because they can walk here.  I can't even get into a plane without getting frisked and showing ID and yet these folks can just cross into America, get detained for a moment and the get set free?  Without any documentation?  It has gotten out of hand.  Our system cannot handle this and it is NOT our responsibility as a nation to have an open border for anyone who wants to come here. 

 

When you talk about how "unfair the system"  is and then ignore the reality that literally thousands come across the border in this fashion daily it merely illustrates you aren't interested in a rational discussion.

 

[Vanimal46]

We'll remember Angie today, and maybe tomorrow... Two weeks from now? Who knows.

 

Is this what Tania Avalos wants or needs right now? Did any publication or media outlet ask if she wants the image of her dead husband and daughter face down in a river to be shared all across the internet and used as a political weapon?

 

Perhaps we should start using sensationalist pictures of kids lying dead from mass shootings to drive home the agenda that guns are bad too.

[Badsmerf]

Maybe they should use those images. For a lot of people, out of sight out of mind is real. Seeing a picture of a dead little girl clinging to her father is horribly sad, and maybe it will change someone's mind that these people aren't worth caring about.

 

The Trump policies aren't fully to blame for this, but they cannot be so quickly swept under the rug. His stance on immigration, and this metering policy creates desperation. It is like giving someone depressed a bottle of whiskey and a handgun, then saying they are the ones that pulled the trigger.

 

We need to send support to the border to handle these people more efficiently. Manpower, money, equipment, everything we can to get kids out of camps, reunite families, and get ahead of this.

 

Then, we need to do whatever it takes to solve the problems these countries have. I'd rather send troops to fight cartel in Nicaragua than a chest thumping contest in Iran.

[Vanimal46]

I disagree the metering policy alone is causing more desperation than past administrations have dealt with. This has been an ongoing issue for 20+ years, and there are always going to be immigrants desperate to cross the border into the United States.

 

I thought Obama took a hard stance on immigration during his tenure and agreed with what he was doing. Trump is taking an even more firm stance on immigration certainly. Sometimes harsh tactics are needed to control a situation that has been growing out of control for a long time.

 

Perhaps the issue now is letting immigrants linger in these facilities and not deport sooner... According to ICE statistics, during the Obama administration the high point of deportations was ~410,000 in 2012, and the low point was 2015 & 2016 with ~250,000.

 

https://www.dhs.gov/immigration-statistics/enforcement-actions

 

During Trump's tenure, he's deported 226,119 in 2017, rising to 256,085 in fiscal year 2018 and 282,242 for fiscal year 2019 as of June.

 

Let's also not pretend these detention facilities, some that were built during the Obama administration, were EVER described as good living conditions either.

 

https://www.acluaz.org/en/cases/doe-v-nielsen

[Badsmerf]

You are conflating the issue. Nobody is saying this is new. Nobody is blaming this all on Trump. Trump has a part in this, his policies have a part in this. Can we agree on that? If not, we can start there.

 

What Americans want is real solutions that have compassion. I don't want open boarders. I liked Obama's stance, and how he was firm. The current policies are aimed to be cruel.

[Vanimal46]

You are conflating the issue. Nobody is saying this is new. Nobody is blaming this all on Trump. Trump has a part in this, his policies have a part in this. Can we agree on that? If not, we can start there.

 

What Americans want is real solutions that have compassion. I don't want open boarders. I liked Obama's stance, and how he was firm. The current policies are aimed to be cruel.

On this thread alone Pseudo typed this is Trump's flagship issue, and gunnarthor typed that the GOP is using xenophobia and racism to win votes. So yes, people here, and all over the internet, are blaming this all on Trump.

 

Every past President over the last 25 years, including the current one, have a part in this problem. That I can agree with.

 

The problem with the "woke" society is assuming what all Americans want. I promise you won't read what I think other people and races think. I'm not them, nor do I know what they really want. Let's stop speaking for a large subgroup of people who all have individual thoughts, ideas, and needs.

 

We do agree on not wanting open borders. From what I was hearing from Castro yesterday, who got praise from some on this thread, is him wanting to make the borders more open and accessible. Not sure I can agree with his take.

[PseudoSABR]

 

On this thread alone Pseudo typed this is Trump's flagship issue, and gunnarthor typed that the GOP is using xenophobia and racism to win votes. So yes, people here, and all over the internet, are blaming this all on Trump.

All on Trump? No. Up thread, I said, that past administrations clearly have a hand in this BUT it is Trump's flagship issue.  Holding Obama accountable, doesn't relieve holding Trump accountable as well, as his policies are not a mere continuation of an old regime.  

[gunnarthor]

 

On this thread alone Pseudo typed this is Trump's flagship issue, and gunnarthor typed that the GOP is using xenophobia and racism to win votes. So yes, people here, and all over the internet, are blaming this all on Trump.

Every past President over the last 25 years, including the current one, have a part in this problem. That I can agree with.

The problem with the "woke" society is assuming what all Americans want. I promise you won't read what I think other people and races think. I'm not them, nor do I know what they really want. Let's stop speaking for a large subgroup of people who all have individual thoughts, ideas, and needs.

We do agree on not wanting open borders. From what I was hearing from Castro yesterday, who got praise from some on this thread, is him wanting to make the borders more open and accessible. Not sure I can agree with his take.

Not sure how you could suggest racism and xenophobia are not part of the GOP platform or this isn't Trump's flagship issue. Both of those statements are true.

 

And both the Dems and GOP deserve condemnation for things they've done - either as bad policy or refusal to change policy.* But the current administration are purposefully making evil choices. Violating the Flores decision, closing legal ports of entry, jailing asylum seekers, etc. Those are active choices that are simply evil. Those are choices other administrations (both Dem and GOP) chose not to do. Hell, Bush after 9/11 wasn't as vindictive as Trump has been.

 

You say you don't want an open boarder but why not? And what does that mean to you? For most of our history, we did have an open boarder. Ellis Island turned away less than 1% of immigrants. About 100 years ago we started passing laws that limited who could come based on their race. Does that sound like a good idea? Does an open boarder scare you because we don't know who would enter? Do we think immigrants aren't good for local economies? Do we not want people to enter because they follow a different religion? Or do you just think America can't absorb a large influx of immigrants? 

 

I don't actually like the idea of an "open boarder" in part because no one really knows what that means. Is it a more open immigration policy? I think people assume it simply means defenseless boarders and are afraid those darn Canadians will invade us for our cheap medical services.  

 

* Seriously, if you dig, you'll find posts from me in 2011-2012 about how bad the Obama administration was dealing with children coming to the boarder. 

[ewen21]

I think it's disgusting to start playing the race card in this thread. Race had nothing to do with what happened.

 

This idea that RACISM is part of literally every current event or issue is absurd. It is also counterproductive to a great many discussions here. I think the race card, when used mayo-faced white people, means absolutely nothing. There is a hyper-sensitive, intolerant and highly accusatory WHITE liberal mindset and it isn't going anywhere.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I think it's disgusting to start playing the race card in this thread. Race had nothing to do with what happened.

This idea that RACISM is part of literally every current event or issue is absurd. It is also counterproductive to a great many discussions here. I think the race card, when used mayo-faced white people, means absolutely nothing. There is a hyper-sensitive, intolerant and highly accusatory WHITE liberal mindset and it isn't going anywhere.

If race isn't a factor how do you explain the emphasis on border crossings rather than those who overstay their visas?  After all, this administration first acted on the issue of immigration with a Muslim ban; we should be cynical about their motives.

 

Again, stop policing the conversation, you may not agree that race is a factor in immigration policy, but there is a credible basis for that belief, and there's nothing "disgusting" about voicing that belief. In short, quit being such a snowflake and getting offended any time someone mentions the concept of race. 

 

 

[ewen21]

This child's death has NOTHING to do with race. THAT girl was not a victim of white racism. Throw a fit if you have to but it doesn't apply.

 

If you want to debate on immigration you're too late AND this isn't the place I want to do it. You proved yourself to be unaware and unaccepting of certain realities at the border when we got into it in March. You and your friends got lost in the word "illegals" and then you centered on blaming the USA for the problems these people face. You wanted to stay away from the data and the logistical issues this mass migration has on the border. You focused entirely on ways to blame the current administration.

 

You can't have a reasonable discussion on this. I actually TRIED for a few weeks to be patient, but I'm done with the discussion for now. Keep on screaming RACISM! Nobody is listening anymore

[ewen21]

Oh and you keep misusing the term "snowflake"

 

You are the one with the standard white boy snowflake takes.

 

If you are doing it intentionally to annoy me it's not working. I actually love the irony that you would use that term. You are the personification of that word

[Vanimal46]

Not sure how you could suggest racism and xenophobia are not part of the GOP platform or this isn't Trump's flagship issue. Both of those statements are true.

 

And both the Dems and GOP deserve condemnation for things they've done - either as bad policy or refusal to change policy.* But the current administration are purposefully making evil choices. Violating the Flores decision, closing legal ports of entry, jailing asylum seekers, etc. Those are active choices that are simply evil. Those are choices other administrations (both Dem and GOP) chose not to do. Hell, Bush after 9/11 wasn't as vindictive as Trump has been.

 

You say you don't want an open boarder but why not? And what does that mean to you? For most of our history, we did have an open boarder. Ellis Island turned away less than 1% of immigrants. About 100 years ago we started passing laws that limited who could come based on their race. Does that sound like a good idea? Does an open boarder scare you because we don't know who would enter? Do we think immigrants aren't good for local economies? Do we not want people to enter because they follow a different religion? Or do you just think America can't absorb a large influx of immigrants?

 

I don't actually like the idea of an "open boarder" in part because no one really knows what that means. Is it a more open immigration policy? I think people assume it simply means defenseless boarders and are afraid those darn Canadians will invade us for our cheap medical services.

 

* Seriously, if you dig, you'll find posts from me in 2011-2012 about how bad the Obama administration was dealing with children coming to the boarder.

An open border to me is allowing anyone and everyone to enter and leave the country as they please without questioning their reasons for coming here. Almost akin to me driving to New Orleans, or you driving to Green Bay.

 

As far as your other questions related to it:

 

Does an open boarder scare you because we don't know who would enter?

 

Yes, somewhat. It may just be a manufactured safety blanket with our current practices today and they don't really accomplish a lot. But to me it does provide safety.

 

Do we think immigrants aren't good for local economies?

 

Probably not for the local economies that actually need it. There's opportunity in rural communities with an aging boomer population to fill the gap with new immigrants. My assumption is they continue to flood large urban cities who have their own population issues.

 

o we not want people to enter because they follow a different religion?

 

I could care less about religion. Pray to 1 God, 8 gods, no god at all, doesn't matter.

 

Or do you just think America can't absorb a large influx of immigrants?

 

Yes that's really what it boils down too. Not knowing how to absorb a large influx of immigrants at once. Like I mentioned before, I think there's opportunity to spread out immigrants to rural areas of the country with a growing population of aging people. The problem is no one wants to move or live there anymore.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Oh and you keep misusing the term "snowflake"

You are the one with the standard white boy snowflake takes.

If you are doing it intentionally to annoy me it's not working. I actually love the irony that you would use that term. You are the personification of that word

Dude, you get so butthurt every time anyone wants to talk about race.  That's what a snowflake is.  Someone who gets easily offended and tells other people how to behave and how to talk. You.

 

No one said her death was a result of racism.  Nice strawman, there.   But an immigration that focuses almost exclusively on border crossing (who largely consist of one race) rather than on visa overstays (a diverse group) invites questions about that policies implications on race.  

 

 

[Squirrel]

This child's death has NOTHING to do with race. THAT girl was not a victim of white racism. Throw a fit if you have to but it doesn't apply.

 

If you want to debate on immigration you're too late AND this isn't the place I want to do it. You proved yourself to be unaware and unaccepting of certain realities at the border when we got into it in March. You and your friends got lost in the word "illegals" and then you centered on blaming the USA for the problems these people face. You wanted to stay away from the data and the logistical issues this mass migration has on the border. You focused entirely on ways to blame the current administration.

 

You can't have a reasonable discussion on this. I actually TRIED for a few weeks to be patient, but I'm done with the discussion for now. Keep on screaming RACISM! Nobody is listening anymore

If you don’t want to carry on a discussion, then DONT! If you don’t like that someone thinks race is pertinent and you don’t, then rebut the issue, but quit telling people when it is and isn’t about race, that you don’t want to talk about it and want everyone to stop. You don’t want to talk about it, then don’t. If others do, then move on.

 

And yes, pseudo, quit calling him snowflake.

[MMMordabito]

 

And moreover, the stupid build-the-wall policy serves to distract from efforts to actually put funds that can prevent deaths like these.

 

I agree with this statement, since it highlights the reason for the whole mess.  Politics.

 

On one side you have fear-mongering Trump using the wall and examples like Ms. Funes-Diaz to get emotional reactions and push his politics. If you don't agree, then you hate your country.

 

On the other side you have dim-witted Cortez calling for open borders and using examples like the Valerias to get emotional reactions and push her politics. If you don't agree, then you are a Nazi.

 

I'll be surprised if there is anyone enlightened enough that has even an ounce of power to look at big picture and understand the values of immigration, asylum, vetting, order, being humane and protecting what has been built.  There isn't.  Neither side cares as long as they keep power.

[MMMordabito]

 

o we not want people to enter because they follow a different religion?

I could care less about religion. Pray to 1 God, 8 gods, no god at all, doesn't matter.

 

I agree, until school and workplace policy starts being affected to accomodate this crap.  Do it in your home, church or gathering site.  People need to understand when they come here that we don't operate the entire country around a religious text anymore.  

 

That used to be the case, but now, we are fortunate enough to have liquor stores (and other businesses) open on Sunday.  

 

When I see an email from a teacher moving a test date up for an entire class, because parents were complaining that it isn't fair because their child has to observe Ramadan that day, I shake my head in disgust. When one of our development managers loses his office that he earned, so that four employees in the entire building can have a "meditation room", I shake my head in disgust.  When the principal at elementary school cancels the Halloween party and replaces it with a stale fall fest because parents were complaining that their children felt left out, since they weren't allowed to participate in this optional party due to religious views, I again shake my head in disgust.

 

Let's not go backwards.

[Squirrel]

I agree, until school and workplace policy starts being affected to accomodate this crap. Do it in your home, church or gathering site. People need to understand when they come here that we don't operate the entire country around a religious text anymore.

 

That used to be the case, but now, we are fortunate enough to have liquor stores (and other businesses) open on Sunday.

 

When I see an email from a teacher moving a test date up for an entire class, because parents were complaining that it isn't fair because their child has to observe Ramadan that day, I shake my head in disgust. When one of our development managers loses his office that he earned, so that four employees in the entire building can have a "meditation room", I shake my head in disgust. When the principal at elementary school cancels the Halloween party and replaces it with a stale fall fest because parents were complaining that their children felt left out, since they weren't allowed to participate in this optional party due to religious views, I again shake my head in disgust.

 

Let's not go backwards.

Hey, we have Christmas and Easter as sanctioned government holidays. Outraged with that? I’m part of a cbu and in our contract it specifies no services on Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah, is that wrong? Just curious where and why are the lines drawn. Maybe the teacher should have looked on the calendar and made adjustments when to give a test accordingly. I think going forward would be considering everyone as best possible.

[MMMordabito]

 

Hey, we have Christmas and Easter as sanctioned government holidays. Outraged with that? I’m part of a cbu and in our contract it specifies no services on Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah, is that wrong? Just curious where and why are the lines drawn. Maybe the teacher should have looked on the calendar and made adjustments when to give a test accordingly. I think going forward would be considering everyone as best possible.

 

Christmas and Easter hold no sanctity for me, but you would be messing with the engine that drives consumerism.  Careful.

 

I will give the controllers of Easter a thumbs up for putting it on a Sunday (yes, I understand that the business week may have been developed somewhat around the Christian Sunday, but do you want to reinvent the wheel?). American Islam and Judaism may want to follow suit and do the same with their observances. 

[Squirrel]

 

Christmas and Easter hold no sanctity for me, but you would be messing with the engine that drives consumerism.  Careful.

 

I will give the controllers of Easter a thumbs up for putting it on a Sunday (yes, I understand that the business week may have been developed somewhat around the Christian Sunday, but do you want to reinvent the wheel?). American Islam and Judaism may want to follow suit and do the same with their observances. 

I'm not sure that will happen ... so then what? So, for you, the line is drawn at consumer holidays, okay, holidays on Sunday, okay ... but the rest? Not? And Ramadan is at a very different time each year, just like Easter isn't the same date every year, either, albeit on a Sunday. Keep in mind, that our work and school weeks are planned around Sundays being an off day; that is not coincidental.

 

I worked for a company, years ago, where the owner was Jewish. He gave all Jewish employees extra paid days off each year to observe the Jewish high holidays. (Some were observant, others weren't but still took the days.) I was fine with that, but wondered, did these same people work on Christmas? I didn't really care, but, time off is time off. I started taking (paid) half days on Good Friday and Ash Wednesday to attend services, because, well, if that was the way it was, so be it. He didn't balk at it and encouraged it. (Back then, when I was very observant, I did use that time to go to services.) And I'm sure he would have given time off for any Muslims in the company, had there been any, for what they needed for Ramadan. Heck, he gave someone paid time off to attend a spiritualist thing, because that's what that person was into. He was someone who acknowledged that his employees' faiths in the work place, and was fair about it. I see no reason a teacher at school can't look at the calendar for these particular days ... there are truly not many of them ... and arrange his/her calendar accordingly. I don't fault anyone wanting to practice their faith, but I think the teacher could be accommodating ... up to a point. And, when I was in school, which was some time ago, we were given time off before and after Easter ... Maundy Thursday, Good Friday and Easter Monday. Schools nowadays try to coincide their Spring/term breaks around Easter, acknowledging that kids and families want that time off to observe the church holiday. So ... is fair fair?

 

And now we have three threads discussing religion. Great.

[ewen21]

Hey, we have Christmas and Easter as sanctioned government holidays. Outraged with that? I’m part of a cbu and in our contract it specifies no services on Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah, is that wrong? Just curious where and why are the lines drawn. Maybe the teacher should have

ive been teaching in public school for over 20 years, Carole.

 

Tell me what I ought to do.

 

Honestly. They can take excused absences for religious observation. Every country has their own customs and values. We need not rearrange EVERYTHING?

[Squirrel]

 

ive been teaching in public school for over 20 years, Carole.

Tell me what I ought to do.

Honestly. They can take excused absences for religious observation. Every country has their own customs and values. We need not rearrange EVERYTHING?

I don't know ... I'm asking the question ... where is the line of too much? Should the teacher be aware of all these various calendar items and plan accordingly? Or should the student plan accordingly for days they need off for observance? I don't know the answer, but no one group, even if the majority or the minority or whatever, should have priority in this case, imo. 

 

Christianity, Judaism and Islam are three major branches of the same tree ... seems to me we can work to be accommodating somehow. But then, where does it end ... is that it? Or do students just get days off here and there, and miss school, because of this, that or the other thing?

 

I don't know what is the best way to accommodate diversity without over-accommodating it because I don't know where that line is.

 

And my sister has been teaching for 30 years and deals with the same issues. She has a lot of refugees in her school and she works to try and be fair to what each needs, but it is sometimes very difficult.

[ewen21]

All a teacher needs to do is tell the parent of a Muslim child that religious holidays are accepted absences.

 

If I'm a Christian living in Egypt I do not presume to think the calendar has to be adjusted for me

[Mr. Brooks]

It doesn't happen often, but I have to agree with Ewen here.

Religion should be a personal thing. Schools and workplaces shouldn't be required to inconvenience other students or employees in order to accommodate religion.

I think it's great if thoughtful people choose to accommodate, when reasonable, such as Carole's personal experiences, but nobody should be required to.

[Mr. Brooks]

All a teacher needs to do is tell the parent of a Muslim child that religious holidays are accepted absences.

 

If I'm a Christian living in Egypt I do not presume to think the calendar has to be adjusted for me

What if your a Christian living in America? Should adjustments be made then?

[Badsmerf]

All a teacher needs to do is tell the parent of a Muslim child that religious holidays are accepted absences.

If I'm a Christian living in Egypt I do not presume to think the calendar has to be adjusted for me

Agreed. I do think test can be adjusted for students though. If they are forthcoming about the absence and communicate, it shouldn't be a problem to adjust a test date for at least that student.

[ewen21]

What if your a Christian living in America? Should adjustments be made then?

I don't follow you

[Mr. Brooks]

I don't follow you

The conversation was discussing examples of religious accommodations in America, then you pivoted to Christian in Egypt. Unlike America, Egypt has an official religion, which would make Christianity a "foreign" religion.

I was wondering if you were implying that only "foreign" religions shouldn't expect accommodations. It wasn't accusatory, I was just asking you to clarify if that was your intention or not.