Angie Valeria

[gunnarthor]

Next month she would have turned two years old. She jumped back into the river to try and save her father. Since we've closed ports of entry, asylum seekers are being forced to make more dangerous crossings. A few years ago, Europe was shamed by the drowning death of another child refugee from Syria, Aylan Kurdi. The way we're treating immigrants now, I'm not sure America can feel shame anymore. 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/26/politics/mexico-father-daughter-dead-rio-grande-wednesday/index.html

[PseudoSABR]

 

The best people.

[Badsmerf]

Having 3 daughters.... I just can't understand why people are so heartless to think these immigrants/asylum/illegals are less-than, and don't deserve better. So sad for these people, and the way our country has been treating them. We must do better.

[Brock Beauchamp]

My foster daughter turns 22 months old in three days.

 

The blood boils. I can't even type, my hands are shaking.

[MMMordabito]

For every Angie Valeria, there's probably an Ariana Funes-Diaz.   

 

Probably don't need an entire thread for this person.

[Squirrel]

My foster daughter turns 22 months old in three days.

 

The blood boils. I can't even type, my hands are shaking.

I go between pure, raw anger and unstoppable tears and sadness and hopelessness. It is EVIL that what is happening. Anyone who starts in with ‘But were they illegal’ doesn’t have a problem with immigration policy, they have a problem with morality.

[gunnarthor]

 

For every Angie Valeria, there's probably an Ariana Funes-Diaz.   

 

Probably don't need an entire thread for this person.

She was a brave little girl. She deserves to be remembered.

 

Whataboutism is not really helpful

[MMMordabito]

 

She was a brave little girl. She deserves to be remembered.

 

Whataboutism is not really helpful

 

It's sensationalism to push a political agenda. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

It's sensationalism to push a political agenda.

People often need personal stories to connect with a larger situation.

 

For those of us with toddlers or those that have raised toddlers, it doesn’t really get more personal than that photo.

[PseudoSABR]

 

For every Angie Valeria, there's probably an Ariana Funes-Diaz.   

 

Probably don't need an entire thread for this person.

So your point is that in order to protect people like Ariana Funes-Diaz or Angie Valeria from MS-13, through the implementing of a harsher immigration policy, we need accept that people like Ariana Funes-Diaz or Angie Valeria may end up dead along the way?

[ewen21]

 

Next month she would have turned two years old. She jumped back into the river to try and save her father. Since we've closed ports of entry, asylum seekers are being forced to make more dangerous crossings. A few years ago, Europe was shamed by the drowning death of another child refugee from Syria, Aylan Kurdi. The way we're treating immigrants now, I'm not sure America can feel shame anymore. 

 

https://www.cnn.com/2019/06/26/politics/mexico-father-daughter-dead-rio-grande-wednesday/index.html

I have to question your motivation here.  This is finger pointing at its worst, in my opinion.  If you want to blame someone then start with the father.  These people accepted the risks (which included putting his baby in peril).  I prefer not to play the blame game here, but if we are going to do it as with anything that puts children in peril it begins with THE PARENTS.  

 

El Salvador is not the only country with people in dire straights.  There are people in Africa facing dire circumstances and they can't jump on a plane and come here.  They must go through a process and if they can't provide the necessary documentation they just can't.  Why is it these immigrants get to circumvent those laws and African and Asian asylum seekers can't?  They don't have the luck of geography?

That seems unfair to me and no one ever thinks twice.

 

This story is SAD.  However, I don't see where anyone should feel outrage toward ICE, the US government, the Mexican government, Trump or any other combination of targets past the mother and father.  The border has been overrun and both Mexico and the US cannot accommodate this massive migration.  Who gets the blame here?  Trump?  ICE?  America itself?

 

 

 

[MMMordabito]

 

So your point is that in order to protect people like Ariana Funes-Diaz or Angie Valeria from MS-13, through the implementing of a harsher immigration policy, we need accept that people like Ariana Funes-Diaz or Angie Valeria may end up dead along the way?

 

Not really.  Ariana Funes-Diaz was a victim of the types that they want to keep out with said policy. Angie Valeria was a victim of the policy to a degree.  Ultimately, she was a victim of poor decision making by her own parents. The OP sensationalized the story by stating that she tried to save her father.  After reading the article, it sounded more like she didn't want to be separated from her father.  The OP also stated that people are "being forced" to make these decisions.  However, after reading the article, I found no evidence of a gun to anyone's head.  I mean they wanted their own home, but that probably isn't a good reason to risk a toddler to the current of the Rio Grande.

[MMMordabito]

 

This story is SAD.  However, I don't see where anyone should feel outrage toward ICE, the US government, the Mexican government, Trump or any other combination of targets past the mother and father.  The border has been overrun and both Mexico and the US cannot accommodate this massive migration.  Who gets the blame here?  Trump?  ICE?  America itself?

 

Yeah, it did seem like a bait and switch thread to me.  The OP grabs you with an "in memoriam" opener and the first response post is a political hook about the new bad guy.

[PseudoSABR]

Powerful twitter thread

https://twitter.com/Breznican/status/1143660035009966080

[PseudoSABR]

And when children die in their home country due to whatever depravity should we blame the parents then, too, for not escaping such conditions? 

[PseudoSABR]

 

Not really.  Ariana Funes-Diaz was a victim of the types that they want to keep out with said policy. Angie Valeria was a victim of the policy to a degree.  Ultimately, she was a victim of poor decision making by her own parents. The OP sensationalized the story by stating that she tried to save her father.  After reading the article, it sounded more like she didn't want to be separated from her father.  The OP also stated that people are "being forced" to make these decisions.  However, after reading the article, I found no evidence of a gun to anyone's head.  I mean they wanted their own home, but that probably isn't a good reason to risk a toddler to the current of the Rio Grande.

Don't disagree with the sensationalism critique, but I think we sometimes are too willing to grant desperate people the free will to make impossible, yet wise, choices.  To have the foresight to see that coming to the US is somehow more dangerous than staying at home.

[Vanimal46]

This has been a problem for years... Not just because of recent policy changes. But, we tend to forget because there's a new national crisis every day. This photo will generate buzz for a while, then we'll move on, sadly.

 

[Vanimal46]

Obama in 2014, faced with the same issues going on today, said this to George Stephanopoulos:

 

“Our message absolutely is don't send your children unaccompanied, on trains or through a bunch of smugglers,” Obama told ABC’s Chief Anchor George Stephanopoulos in an exclusive interview here. “We don't even know how many of these kids don't make it, and may have been waylaid into sex trafficking or killed because they fell off a train.

 

Do not send your children to the borders,” he said. “If they do make it, they'll get sent back. More importantly, they may not make it.”

 

Fast forward to today, and immigrants are still sending their children on their own to cross the border. Perhaps the mistake now is not sending them back immediately? Or have the goal posts shifted?

 

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/obama-warns-central-americans-send-children-borders/story?id=24320063

[Mike Sixel]

I got no idea what the best answer is, but I don't blame this administration for people dying on the way here.........and that's not an easy thing for me to type.

 

How we treat them when they are here? Well......that's a different thread.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I got no idea what the best answer is, but I don't blame this administration for people dying on the way here.........and that's not an easy thing for me to type.

I do.  When that administration curtails access to and the granting of legal asylum, and puts such seekers into near concentration camp conditions, those who would seek legal asylum, out of desperation, seek other means of entry into the US.  

 

This administration cannot claim to lack the funds to humanely deal with the immigration crisis when the only accomplishment of GOP control of the government has been a tax cut benefiting the very wealthy.  And moreover, the stupid build-the-wall policy serves to distract from efforts to actually put funds that can prevent deaths like these.

 

I'm sure past administration share part of the blame here; but this is Trump's flagship issue.  And he's ****ed up both in terms of his policy goals and the implementation.  

[ewen21]

 

I do.  When that administration curtails access to and the granting of legal asylum, and puts such seekers into near concentration camp conditions,

 

 

I have only this to ask.

If  the Trump administration is so vile and America elected him why in the world are so many crashing down the gates to get here?  

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I have only this to ask.

If  the Trump administration is so vile and America elected him why in the world are so many crashing down the gates to get here?

 

Why are they crashing down the gates to get here? Because they love the idea of America. America is worth risking their own lives for. Most Americans can’t even say that about themselves anymore.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I have only this to ask.

If  the Trump administration is so vile and America elected him why in the world are so many crashing down the gates to get here?  

Jesus.  He didn't burn down everything great in this country.  We tend to overstate the power the president has in effecting our daily lives, so even with a vile creature in the Whitehouse, even the poorest of Americans have better lives than these people fleeing Central America.

[Vanimal46]

I do. When that administration curtails access to and the granting of legal asylum, and puts such seekers into near concentration camp conditions, those who would seek legal asylum, out of desperation, seek other means of entry into the US.

 

This administration cannot claim to lack the funds to humanely deal with the immigration crisis when the only accomplishment of GOP control of the government has been a tax cut benefiting the very wealthy. And moreover, the stupid build-the-wall policy serves to distract from efforts to actually put funds that can prevent deaths like these.

 

I'm sure past administration share part of the blame here; but this is Trump's flagship issue. And he's ****ed up both in terms of his policy goals and the implementation.

At least both parties are on the same page now and admit there's a border crisis... Back in December when Trump shut down the government it was labeled as a 'manufactured crisis' by Chuck Schumer and Nancy Polosi.

 

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/449214-dems-make-u-turn-on-calling-border-a-manufactured-crisis

 

We're seeing an unprecedented influx of immigrants at the southern border than any time in history. We're on pace for 1 million border apprehensions this year, the highest year over year increase in our nation's history.

 

https://www.rand.org/blog/2019/05/common-sense-solutions-to-the-border-crisis.html

 

And yet it's the same **** over and over. Republicans blocking Democrats from getting policies implemented and vice versa.

 

As far as his policy goals and ****ing up, I disagree. He's mostly enforced his policy goal during his campaign. Which was pledging "sweeping changes" such as the wall (hasn't been done), sharp cuts to legal immigration, and "extreme" vetting of applicants during admission. The number of legal immigration admissions have been reduced to levels in the 1980s.

 

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/research/immigration-under-trump-review-policy-shifts

 

Of course implementation can get dicey when state and local agencies can push back and refuse to oblige to the policy...

 

At the end of the day, there's a significant passion gap between pro-immigration and anti-immigration. The thought of open borders, which that idea sounds like something you support, is just as scary to some as locked down borders are to you.

 

Trump and this administration are mostly in a lose lose scenario. If he took the same stance as Obama, saying "Don't send your children, or we'll send them back" he'll be a bigoted racist. How realistic is it to vet an exponentially growing number of immigrants quickly? Maybe if both parties stopped with their d**k measuring contests saying ours is the better bill we could get something accomplished.

[Craig Arko]

Maybe if both parties stopped with their d**k measuring contests saying ours is the better bill we could get something accomplished.

Elect more women.

[PseudoSABR]

Julian Castro's answer on immigration and why Trump's policy is responsible for those deaths is convincingly succinct.  He points to the metering policy where this man and his daughter went to a port of entry and were turned away, it was after they explored legal entry that they crossed illegally.

[Squirrel]

Julian Castro is my dark horse candidate. I’ve liked what he’s said about many things prior to this debate. And what I’ve heard from him so far is good.

[LaBombo]

 

I do.  When that administration curtails access to and the granting of legal asylum, and puts such seekers into near concentration camp conditions, those who would seek legal asylum, out of desperation, seek other means of entry into the US.  

 

 

Asylum is for those persons able to prove that they are fleeing systematic persecution, not poverty.

 

The OVERWHELMING majority of central American immigrants do not qualify for asylum, and they have not in the past.

 

In 2016, DHS statistics show that El Salvadoran applicants were the largest non-China group to be granted asylum, at just under 1,400 total for the year. CBP is turning away or apprehending more than 3000 people attempting illegal entry EVERY DAY.

 

As tragic as their deaths are, the family in question did NOT qualify for asylum.

 

I've not heard a single coherent explanation of how a fast-tracked asylum pipeline of instant admission, expedited processing, almost certain rejection, and removal will solve anything... for applicants or for the U.S.

 

We need to do more to help the citizens of Central American and Mexico have a life in their own countries, and until we do, arguing about asylum and walls is nothing but a political sideshow.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Asylum is for those persons able to prove that they are fleeing systematic persecution, not poverty.

A point that should be appreciated by those dead, no doubt? 

 

Of course, these people will not get legal asylum--though the concept broadly should perhaps include disenfranchisement due to failing governments, economies etc.   

 

My point is that there is ethical way to handle people who are obviously under the misapprehension of their access to asylum rights (is it illegal to apply for asylum even if one does not qualify??), and we are not doing that.  The notion that the parents should have known better requires some legal sophistication I don't grant to most American citizens, let alone those escaping poverty in Central America.  

 

And again, that they do not qualify for asylum, might speak more to how our current law is equipped to handle the actual humanitarian crisis at the border than to the culpability of the parents.

 

My point continues to be, where can WE be responsible, what can WE do, and not pass the buck to obviously desperate people to somehow know better.  It may not be our fault, but it is our responsibility because we are the only ones with the means do something about this crisis and these specific deaths.  

[LaBombo]

 

A point that should be appreciated by those dead, no doubt? 

 

Of course, these people will not get legal asylum--though the concept broadly should perhaps include disenfranchisement due to failing governments, economies etc.   

 

My point is that there is ethical way to handle people who are obviously under the misapprehension of their access to asylum rights (is it illegal to apply for asylum even if one does not qualify??), and we are not doing that.  The notion that the parents should have known better requires some legal sophistication I don't grant to most American citizens, let alone those escaping poverty in Central America.  

 

And again, that they do not qualify for asylum, might speak more to how our current law is equipped to handle the actual humanitarian crisis at the border than to the culpability of the parents.

 

My point continues to be, where can WE be responsible, what can WE do, and not pass the buck to obviously desperate people to somehow know better.  It may not be our fault, but it is our responsibility because we are the only ones with the means do something about this crisis and these specific deaths.  

 

STOP.

 

Nowhere did I assign blame for anything to anyone, least of all to those seeking entry, for not understanding asylum requirements or for anything else, and it's ridiculous for you to claim otherwise.

 

But since you brought up the idea of blame for the false perception among immigrants of asylum as a magic password to live in the United States, how would it be ANYONE but the party that abuses the word EVERY DAY in the media?

 

And no, s#!^canning the definition of asylum isn't the answer. Neither is the false choice of 'unlimited immigrant entry or you're guilty of negligent homicide!'

 

Should we offer immediate short-term aid to destitute people who show up at our borders? YES. Can we? No, not as a nation, not as long as that aid is contingent on the outcome of an ongoing partisan battle over legislation that is tied to DACA, Dreamers, and a dozen other issues that are of absolutely no use to a desperate family on the wrong side of the river.

 

In the end, though, nothing will be resolved as long as economic distress is the sole determinant for prospective immigrants instead of the mutual best interests of immigrants and our nation.