Article: Miguel Sano: A Fading Superstar

[jmlease1]

I think the point here is that if a player is going to be a superstar, you usually know it by his age 26 season. Which is...probably unfair?

 

Joe Mauer had 2 batting titles, 2 all-stars, and a gold glove before embarking on his best season as a pro in his age 26.

 

But Kirby Puckett didn't have his first all-star appearance until his age 26 season, which launched him into stardom.

 

Carew was RoY and an all-star at 21, but didn't really start his run of greatness until the age 26 season, before peaking at 31 with the MVP year.

 

Now these are all HoF type players (2 are in and one will at least get a very long look in 5 years), so is that the comp to make for superstar?

 

Or is it more like Torii Hunter? Who was a great player for a long time, a deserving all-star, but seems almost certain to fall short of induction (lots of very good years, a few great years, no MVP seasons).

 

26 gets you into the prime years, where a player is almost certainly going to be at their best (absent *ahem* chemical assistance), so i think it's fair to say that the time is now for Sano. He's got to stay healthy and produce on the field. But he's certainly been productive this season, and while we're still in SSS territory the pace he's on would put him up with any of the top sluggers in the league.

 

It's premature to call him "fading".

 

It's fair to wonder if he can stay on the field enough to truly be a superstar; he's never played 120 games in a season and he's not going to play 120 games this season either. That's really the only barrier I see for sano to not be a superstar.

[jkcarew]

 

I think to be fair to Cody, the chances of Sano being a superstar have faded. A lot.

Fair. But at the least a bad headline/theme, here. I would buy lowered expectations (which isn't unique to Sano)...but not a narrative where his career arc is fading. He's not at any point yet established super-stardom and he might never. But he might be extremely useful...and he's doing fine for now. We'll see.

[Nine of twelve]

So does "fading superstar" mean he's going to be "only a star"? If so I think we all can live with that.

[Craig Arko]

I’d submit just putting a question mark at the end of the headline could have mitigated some of the problems here. Maybe TD authors can learn from this.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Fair. But at the least a bad headline/theme, here. I would buy lowered expectations (which isn't unique to Sano)...but not a narrative where his career arc is fading. He's not at any point yet established super-stardom and he might never. But he might be extremely useful...and he's doing fine for now. We'll see.

 

I don't think it's fair at all.  This is clickbait and TD is normally above that.

[Devereaux]

How was Miguel Sano ever a superstar? And how is this line anything but self-exposing baloney? "The age issue hasn’t been brought up in recent years and that’s probably a good thing for Twins Territory." Do you still think he's going to be deported as a terrorist?

[99mnlife]

I think his star is fading fast. Here are the reasons for my opion. He is solely a mistake pitch hitter. He can hit a 450 foot home run on a breaking pitch that doesnt break. If it breaks he swings through it and if it's a good breaking pitch he flails at it and misses it by a foot.

 

He is not good defensively. Not sure why people say that on here. Look at last night... cost us the game and cost Perez an early exit. He does not look comfortable at third.

 

He also makes tons of baserunning mistakes. So say he is healthy all season he will hit 40 Homer's and strike out 280 to 320 times.... so with so small a chance of contact hit and runs or moving the runner over is not an option.

 

To me he should be platooned and used as a punch hitter with pitchers with no breaking pitches in their arsenal. Unless he gets better at pitch selection and learns to hit a breaking pitch or atleast make contact with them to foul them off.

 

If someone offered a deal where it was mid level prospects and sano part of the deal for a good pitcher we would have for some years I'd be all for it.

 

Could he figure it out somehow? Yes. Look at Buxton. But then again Sano upside is not even a third of Buxton's upside.

[yarnivek1972]

The days of platoon players are pretty much over in this era of 12-13 man pitching staffs. Even when rosters go to 26 next year, there are still only going to be 4 (occasionally 5) bench players.

[99mnlife]

Guys 1.000 ops with 60 or so at bats is nice but if you think he will have a 1.000 ops after 400 plate appearances I have a six figure wager for you!

 

Hard hit percentage means how much when the majority of the time there is absolutely no contact made? Factor in all them swings and misses the % swing is probably on the bottom 10% of baseball. Until he learns to hit a good slider he is a incomplete player with gaping holes that can easily be exploited. Come playoff time sano comes up late in a game what happens? They bring in a pitcher with a nasty slider and he may as well close his eyes and swing as hard as he can.

[99mnlife]

La vikes fan take a look at buxtons batting average with runners in scoring position. Top 5 in all of baseball... 20 doubles, 3 triples, 7 Homer's and I think 34 rbi batting 9th. I thi k the only reason they dont move Buxton up to bat at the top of the order is they are affraid it will put too much stress on him and he will implode like previous years. I think Buxton is a completely different player now and he is ready. Not to mention last two games a 439 foot homer and 453 foot homer l. The longest two of his entire career.

[yarnivek1972]

Guys 1.000 ops with 60 or so at bats is nice but if you think he will have a 1.000 ops after 400 plate appearances I have a six figure wager for you!

 

Hard hit percentage means how much when the majority of the time there is absolutely no contact made? Factor in all them swings and misses the % swing is probably on the bottom 10% of baseball. Until he learns to hit a good slider he is a incomplete player with gaping holes that can easily be exploited. Come playoff time sano comes up late in a game what happens? They bring in a pitcher with a nasty slider and he may as well close his eyes and swing as hard as he can.

There is no such thing as a player who can hit a good slider. The good ones are unhittable. You hit the bad ones.

[Doomtints]

This article is a bad headline over copy that says essentially nothing. I'm speechless. I feel like I just read a very long tweet.

 

Pardon me while I go and wash this stink off my body.

 

 

[MikeW]

It’s a fair question, yet I’m an optimist. Sano has had to mature as a person. My impression is that he has done that.

 

Nothing improves your performance like failing and get back at it again. Sano had a poor 2018 season accompanied by injuries. There is no one who has displayed more exuberance since rejoining the team than Sano. He is carrying an incredibly good attitude.

 

If Miggy can carry a .250 batting average, continue to perform well at 3B, and hit his share of big flies, I’ll be pleased.

[AlwaysinModeration]

How about a slight tweak to the article title:

 

Albert Pujols: Fading Superstar

[Nine of twelve]

 

How about a slight tweak to the article title:

Albert Pujols: Faded Superstar

ftfy

[Craig Arko]

Perhaps it’s time to put down the torches and pitchforks and see if the author has any kind of reply to make.

[Mr. Brooks]

Perhaps it’s time to put down the torches and pitchforks and see if the author has any kind of reply to make.

And then let's all pick them back up off the ground and go find that dude that bunted to break up a no hitter.

[Nine of twelve]

 

And then let's all pick them back up off the ground and go find that dude that bunted to break up a no hitter.

I know this is venturing off-topic but I've come around to the point of view that this is OK if it's a close game because in that case the primary purpose of doing it is to try to give your team a chance of winning the game. Breaking up the no-hitter is just collateral damage.

Edit: And BTW if it happens in the first 3 or 4 innings nobody would think twice about it.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Nine of twelve

[shimrod]

I think the eye test belies the numbers. He just looks baffled on so many pitches. 

 

Every time he comes to the plate it's high hopes balanced against low expectations. 

 

[Mr. Brooks]

I think the eye test belies the numbers. He just looks baffled on so many pitches.

 

Every time he comes to the plate it's high hopes balanced against low expectations.

Sounds like confirmation bias to me. Every major league hitter looks baffled by a pitch or two every game.

One of my favorite things about baseball is that the numbers most often do tell the story, especially on the hitting side.

There is no such thing as an empty 1.000 OPS.

Nor is hitting mlb pitching so easy that one can just luck into those numbers, or only achieve them by only hitting mistakes.

[TheLeviathan]

I know this is venturing off-topic but I've come around to the point of view that this is OK if it's a close game because in that case the primary purpose of doing it is to try to give your team a chance of winning the game. Breaking up the no-hitter is just collateral damage.

Edit: And BTW if it happens in the first 3 or 4 innings nobody would think twice about it.

I reopened a thread on this.

 

Our pitchforks and torches need not leave this thread. It earned them.

[old nurse]

There is a premise that prospect rankings mean something more than the player has a Chance. Drew Henson sat near the top of these lists for a long time.  That someone thought superstar is on them, not Sano. It is hard to be a failure as a superstar when the player never achieved it.  Some players develop slower than others, see Nelson Cruz. 

[operation mindcrime]

How about a slight tweak to the article title:

 

Albert Pujols: Fading Superstar

Miguel Cabrera says hello!

[Sam Morley]

Miguel Sano is a very good player. He's a very good hitter and a very good third baseman; today. I think he's probably going to get better. I think he'll probably have several all-star caliber seasons. One determining factor will be whether he can avoid injury or not. Another factor is whether he is motivated to be his best and maintains his optimal performing fitness. Maybe those two factors are connected. I don't feel very confident about him being succesful in either factor. I think avoidance of injury can be connected to both luck and maintainance of fitness. I think maintainance of fitness is connected to work ethic. I think work ethic is connect to character.

 

I doubt his character. I doubt his work ethic. I doubt his ability/willingness to maintain fitness. I doubt the likelihood of his avoiding injury. I think his pure athletic ability could carry him through a lot, along with some good fortune.

 

I was a huge Sano fan. Like most TD members, I followed his career from signing- probably on a daily basis through the minor leagues. I don't think I had ever been as excited for a prospect to arrive at the Twins, as I was for Sano. In my mind, he was a superstar before he arrived.

 

What a player does on the field is obviously the biggest factor in their level of popularity and recognition, whether or not they reach star status or superstar status or whatever. But what (ASIDE: as I type this, Sano just hit a bomb to right center in whatever the Tigers' stadium is called now) a player does off the field also impacts their popularity and stardom. There's nothing Sano can do on the field that will erase, for me, the wrongness of what he was accused of. Even If there were anything he could do off the field to make up for it, he won't. If he did what he was accused of, he did it because he thought he would get away with it. And he did. The league, the team, and the fans let him off the hook.

 

I began by saying that I think Sano is good and that I think he will get better. I think this because of his talent, and despite his repeatedly demonstrated poor character. But I think that a case can be made that because of his poor character, he will not get better. He will stay the same or get worse. In which case, a reasonable action would be to move him. Therefore, I don't think the premise of this article is as bad as most of the posters in the thread do.

 

Otherwise, in order of preference, I suggest:

 

Cut him and sign Mauer

Cut him

Trade him

Mandate attendance of sexual violence awareness classes indefinitely

 

That's just me though, and my opinion is pretty disconnected from his performance. (Though, his long term performance may be connected to his quality of character, which I estimate to be poor).

[jctwins]

 

Miguel Sano is a very good player. He's a very good hitter and a very good third baseman; today. I think he's probably going to get better. I think he'll probably have several all-star caliber seasons. One determining factor will be whether he can avoid injury or not. Another factor is whether he is motivated to be his best and maintains his optimal performing fitness. Maybe those two factors are connected. I don't feel very confident about him being succesful in either factor. I think avoidance of injury can be connected to both luck and maintainance of fitness. I think maintainance of fitness is connected to work ethic. I think work ethic is connect to character. 

 

I doubt his character. I doubt his work ethic. I doubt his ability/willingness to maintain fitness. I doubt the likelihood of his avoiding injury. I think his pure athletic ability could carry him through a lot, along with some good fortune. 

 

I was a huge Sano fan. Like most TD members, I followed his career from signing- probably on a daily basis through the minor leagues. I don't think I had ever been as excited for a prospect to arrive at the Twins, as I was for Sano. In my mind, he was a superstar before he arrived.

 

When the headlines of assault accusations appeared, I'd hoped it was some silly bar fight or weird confrontation over a misunderstanding, something easy to brush aside or write off. But they turned out to be credible accusations of sexual assault.

 

I don't intend to review that case in this thread. People have made their own conclusions and peace with it, and that's fine, I guess. Mine is that he probably did what he was accused of, and because of that, I personally don't enjoy watching him play in a Twins uniform. Further, I resent the Twins and MLB not addressing it in any meaningful way, thereby passing the ethical/moral dilemma on to fans. Every time I watch Sano, the Twins, any MLB I'm saying 'well, I guess watching baseball is more important to me than standing up against sexual assault.' The entities that had an opportunity to do something about this issue when confronted with it directly, passed on that opportunity. 

 

What a player does on the field is obviously the biggest factor in their level of popularity and recognition, whether or not they reach star status or superstar status or whatever. But what (ASIDE: as I type this, Sano just hit a bomb to right center in whatever the Tigers' stadium is called now) a player does off the field also impacts their popularity and stardom. There's nothing Sano can do on the field that will erase, for me, the wrongness of what he was accused of. Even If there were anything he could do off the field to make up for it, he won't. If he did what he was accused of, he did it because he thought he would get away with it. And he did. The league, the team, and the fans let him off the hook.

 

I began by saying that I think Sano is good and that I think he will get better. I think this because of his talent, and despite his repeatedly demonstrated poor character. But I think that a case can be made that because of his poor character, he will not get better. He will stay the same or get worse. In which case, a reasonable action would be to move him. Therefore, I don't think the premise of this article is as bad as most of the posters in the thread do. 

 

One poster stated that Sano had been cleared of the accusations. If that is referring to the MLB 'investigation', I would say that investigation amounted to a pretty effective cover up. If there has been other exonerating anything, I haven't heard about it, but would like to, as my preference is to watch Sano and all his talent without internal conflict.

 

Otherwise, in order of preference, I suggest:

 

Cut him and sign Mauer

Cut him

Trade him

Mandate attendance of sexual violence awareness classes indefinitely

 

That's just me though, and my opinion is pretty disconnected from his performance. (Though, his long term performance may be connected to his quality of character, which I estimate to be poor).

 

This is well said.

 

To think it's a black and white issue where some fans can't decide they are done supporting him is closed minded.

 

 

[Linus]

I saw a couple of good signs today. Taking that ball to right center was great and I think he is trying to lay off pitches out of the zone. Time will tell. Regarding the article: Sano has never been a superstar and we would be crazy to trade him right now and probably ever has the upside is immense. And this is coming from a long time Sano doubter

[gbg]

And yet, we are nearly on page four discussing it. Exactly what the owners of the site hope for...

[Shane Wahl]

LOL. No he isn't. End of story. Prolly stop talking about this.

Yes, I'M BAAAAAAACK!.

[jokin]

 

LOL. No he isn't. End of story. Prolly stop talking about this.

Yes, I'M BAAAAAAACK!.

 

Welcome back, Professor!

[USAFChief]

 

Miguel Sano before tonight's (Wednesday) game;

 

1.009 OPS, .406 wOBA, 156 wRC+.  Not only is his offense seen as above average thus far this season, so is his defense AND baserunning.  He's accumulated 0.8 WAR in only 14 games--in a 154 game season, that's a 9 WAR season.  Sure he strikes out a lot, but he also has nearly a 50% hard hit rate, and only a 6.5% soft hit rate--in other words, the 65% of the time he makes contact, it's medium contact or better 9 times out of 10.

 

This piece smacks of something the writer threw together on the heels of Monday's 0-3 with a strikeout, without any manner of research whatsoever.  I'm not sure how else a piece running Sano down could be posted.

Can we get an update on those numbers?