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Police misconduct


gunnarthor

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What the cops are being blamed for IS the excessive force.  That's a large part of what their misconduct comes down to: unnecessary and excessive force.

 

It doesn't seem like you disagree at all that this is police misconduct. 

I don't, but I do think the videos people put online of these exchanges need to be made illegal.  It isn't fair because we do not see HOW it all transpired and police are being tried in the court of public opinion without people knowing all the facts and actions of the person being detained.  Over the last ten years (with the advent of social media) people have been emboldened to challenge the police.  These videos cause a reaction with a segment of the population and it is counterproductive.  

 

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I don't, but I do think the videos people put online of these exchanges need to be made illegal.  It isn't fair because we do not see HOW it all transpired and police are being tried in the court of public opinion without people knowing all the facts and actions of the person being detained.  Over the last ten years (with the advent of social media) people have been emboldened to challenge the police.  These videos cause a reaction with a segment of the population and it is counterproductive.  

 

Americans need the right to challenge an arm of their government.  Limiting citizen rights is a poor solution.

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I don't, but I do think the videos people put online of these exchanges need to be made illegal.  It isn't fair because we do not see HOW it all transpired and police are being tried in the court of public opinion without people knowing all the facts and actions of the person being detained.  Over the last ten years (with the advent of social media) people have been emboldened to challenge the police.  These videos cause a reaction with a segment of the population and it is counterproductive.  

Look, the thing about excessive force is that there is no excuse.  These men and women are trained for these situations; it's not as if we just plucked a rando off the street and gave them a gun and told them good luck dealing with the baddies.  If these people can't keep their cool in the face of irrational criminals, they need to get a new job. 

 

Much of police misconduct I think results from negligent hiring practices, and perhaps lack of training.  We simply can't have that old mindset that allows for bullies and hotheads to be hired as police officers.  We need people with a psychological profile for nonviolence, restraint and the ability to deescalate.

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Not a big fan of the first amendment, I see.

It's all about representing the facts fairly. If a video is put out and it only shows part of what happened then I'm not for it.

 

I guess you are

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It's all about representing the facts fairly. If a video is put out and it only shows part of what happened then I'm not for it.

 

I guess you are

I can't imagine what could go wrong if we allow the government to decide what is "fair" to post online.

We could look at media access in North Korea for a rough equivalent though.

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I can't imagine what could go wrong if we allow the government to decide what is "fair" to post online.
We could look at media access in North Korea for a rough equivalent though.

Police activity is already .  Where does "public surveillance" end?  Should we just allow people recording you at work?  How about I show up at your work, provoke you then hit record so everyone could see your reaction?

 

It is out of hand.

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Police activity is already . Where does "public surveillance" end? Should we just allow people recording you at work? How about I show up at your work, provoke you then hit record so everyone could see your reaction?

 

It is out of hand.

I'm a private citizen.

And if I'm on public property, you have every right to record me.

And I'm not sure how you came to equate holding government accountable with condoning provoking police. It's entirely possible to support one while denouncing the other.

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Police activity is already .  Where does "public surveillance" end?  Should we just allow people recording you at work?  How about I show up at your work, provoke you then hit record so everyone could see your reaction?

 

It is out of hand.

Authority needs to be monitored.  If they don't like it, they are free to find employment elsewhere. 

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Police activity is already .  Where does "public surveillance" end?  Should we just allow people recording you at work?  How about I show up at your work, provoke you then hit record so everyone could see your reaction?

 

It is out of hand.

 

So is excessive force. And this isn't really chicken or the egg, we know which came first - excessive force.  Now we have the means to hold them accountable.

 

To deny basic civil rights to protect them is absurd.

 

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While I understand that cops have a tough job, they must treat every suspect as a human being who is innocent until proven guilty. They can't be judge, jury and executioner. There is no excuse for beating suspects once they are subdued. If the cuffs are on, the cops have control. If that is the case in this instance, the police are culpable.

 

What isn't being discussed here is the fact that a disproportionate number of minorities are the ones getting the beatings. 

 

I witnessed cops showing restraint when confronted by out-of-control suspects. Last year, a young man, apparently on drugs, was disruptive enough on an airport shuttle that the driver called the police. The young man (African-American incidentally) left at the last stop to use the restroom. The local police arrived to tell him that he wasn't going to be allowed on the shuttle. He was profane, threatening and in the face of the officer, but the officer would not be provoked. When backup arrived, he was arrested, cuffed and searched and the drugs were found when his luggage was searched. Three law enforcement officers all "kept their cool" when provoked. 

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Police activity is already .  Where does "public surveillance" end?  Should we just allow people recording you at work?  How about I show up at your work, provoke you then hit record so everyone could see your reaction?

 

It is out of hand.

I'm not sure if you're trying to be contrarian or if you just don't understand how things work. But your comparison makes no sense whatsoever.

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I'm not sure if you're trying to be contrarian

I am, but you can "shine a light on police misconduct" and that is part of what you do for a living so go for it.  What I can't take is reading stuff like this....

 

"Most of us had a boss or two who treat others as police officers treat anyone they meet on the street.

We have all quit those jobs.

This tells you all you need to know."

 

The above is one of a few posts here that have generalized police in a ridiculous way.  If you have an axe to grind with law enforcement I guess you have your dream job.

 

Maybe it is just me, but I tend to trust the police over those who they are apprehending.  One is trying to uphold the law and the other broke the law. If there is a physical confrontation between an officer and a criminal started by the criminal I root for the officer to beat the criminal to a pulp.  If I had a choice to live next to a police officer or a criminal I pick the officer ten times out of ten. 

If that makes me an outcast here then I own it.

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I am, but you can "shine a light on police misconduct" and that is part of what you do for a living so go for it.  What I can't take is reading stuff like this....

 

"Most of us had a boss or two who treat others as police officers treat anyone they meet on the street.

We have all quit those jobs.

This tells you all you need to know."

 

The above is one of a few posts here that have generalized police in a ridiculous way.  If you have an axe to grind with law enforcement I guess you have your dream job.

 

Maybe it is just me, but I tend to trust the police over those who they are apprehending.  One is trying to uphold the law and the other broke the law. If there is a physical confrontation between an officer and a criminal started by the criminal I root for the officer to beat the criminal to a pulp.  If I had a choice to live next to a police officer or a criminal I pick the officer ten times out of ten. 

If that makes me an outcast here then I own it.

If you're in favor of beating people to a pulp; I'm certainly not on your side. 

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If you're in favor of beating people to a pulp; I'm certainly not on your side.

If a perp attacks a cop? My thought process is the cop should do everything necessary to make sure he gets out of it. This excludes literally nothing in extreme circumstances

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If a perp attacks a cop? My thought process is the cop should do everything necessary to make sure he gets out of it. This excludes literally nothing in extreme circumstances

Now it's attacking? I thought it was resisting arrest that they deserved the beat down.  Look at those goal posts move!

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I'm not sure if you're trying to be contrarian

 

I am, but you can "shine a light on police misconduct" and that is part of what you do for a living so go for it. 

....

If that makes me an outcast here then I own it.

Moderator's Note: Ewen, if you missed it, please go back and read the post I made at the top of the Sports Bar forum area:

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/33218-political-threads-please-read/

 

I'm asking you along with the others to tone down the personal comments, as well as the readiness to provoke rather than discuss.

 

When you say "I am [trying to be contrarian]" it implies you are purposely saying things merely to dispute, rather than what you believe. Whether you mean it that way or not, it's how it comes across.

 

When you bring gunnarthor's career into the discussion, it is overly personal, and comes across as discounting the points he makes on a personal basis rather than on their merits.

 

When you suggest you are being made an outcast (by others simply disagreeing with your points), it is again overly personal, this time about yourself, inviting the discussion to be about you rather than the video you brought to us.

 

All these are touched on, in the post I referenced above.

 

Please stick to the topic, and avoid the habits that invite a discussion going off the rails. You highlighted a video of an arrest and invited discussion, and so remarks about others' jobs or your being stigmatized are off-topic.

 

And please don't further disrupt the topic you brought forward here by responding in-thread to this corrective post. Contact me or any of the other moderators if you feel the need to discuss this tangent.

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Just to get a good idea of how difficult this issue will be to rectify, check out the episode from last week's "Whistleblower" on CBS (very good show, BTW). They highlight a Chicago police officer who blew the whistle on corruption in the department that led to officers planting evidence on subjects and even initiating physical confrontations.

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This came out a few days ago but it's worth the read - 

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilyhoerner/police-facebook-racist-violent-posts-comments-philadelphia

 

“This blows up the myth of bad apples, by the sheer number of images and numbers of individuals who are implicated,” said Nikki Jones, an associate professor of African American studies at the University of California, Berkeley.

David Kennedy, a criminology professor at John Jay College, said he considered the results “dire.”

"This is the kind of behavior that confirms the worst suspicions on the part of communities about the police," Kennedy said, adding that it “fuels and cements” the convictions of people in distressed communities have that the “police are not to be trusted.”

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This came out a few days ago but it's worth the read -

https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emilyhoerner/police-facebook-racist-violent-posts-comments-philadelphia

 

“This blows up the myth of bad apples, by the sheer number of images and numbers of individuals who are implicated,” said Nikki Jones, an associate professor of African American studies at the University of California, Berkeley.

David Kennedy, a criminology professor at John Jay College, said he considered the results “dire.”

"This is the kind of behavior that confirms the worst suspicions on the part of communities about the police," Kennedy said, adding that it “fuels and cements” the convictions of people in distressed communities have that the “police are not to be trusted.”

Even worse, is at the end the former police officer says "This type of language serves a purpose: it says we're all in this together." Nice.

 

I doubt he speaks for all police officers, but the ones I know definitely fall into this demographic. That said, I don't like the charges being brought against the first responder in Florida. Fire him, say how terrible at his job he was, but he isn't a criminal.

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Even worse, is at the end the former police officer says "This type of language serves a purpose: it says we're all in this together." Nice.

 

I doubt he speaks for all police officers, but the ones I know definitely fall into this demographic. That said, I don't like the charges being brought against the first responder in Florida. Fire him, say how terrible at his job he was, but he isn't a criminal.

By the law in Florida he likely did commit a crime.

This was an incredibly thorough and exhaustive investigation by an independent agency that led to these charges. They weren't filed willy nilly, or as an emotional decision.

When you take the job as police officer, at least by Florida law, attempting to take action in a situation like this is not optional.

Children are dead because he didn't do his job, a job he took a legal oath to do. I do feel sympathy for him, I'm sure he's haunted by this. But that doesn't release him from his legal culpability. We're all responsible for our actions, or in his case, inaction.

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By the law in Florida he likely did commit a crime.
This was an incredibly thorough and exhaustive investigation by an independent agency that led to these charges. They weren't filed willy nilly, or as an emotional decision.
 

 

Even though it only directly resulted in a misdemeanor charge, the prosecutorial tide probably turned again him when it was determined that he lied to investigators about his awareness of what was happening inside the school as the shootings were taking place.

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Even though it only directly resulted in a misdemeanor charge, the prosecutorial tide probably turned again him when it was determined that he lied to investigators about his awareness of what was happening inside the school as the shootings were taking place.

Yeah people typically don't like being lied to. That's a pretty good way to lose the benefit of the doubt with people.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Cops were attacked for shooting a wanted man.

 

"Webber had been wanted in a June 3 shooting that happened during a car theft about 25 miles (40 kilometers) south of Memphis in Hernando, Mississippi."

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/tennessee-shooting-involving-task-force-investigation-63679962

 

Apparently there were onlookers who saw a cop taking this lunatic down and because he was black demanded to know why they were mistreating this poor young man.  As a result a mob attacked the officers.  This is insanity and it is not the fault of the police.  

 

For all those who want the Hyde Amendment repealed, this felon on the run was 20 and had his 3rd child on the way.  I guess this is the kind of thing which supports that thought process.  I get it now.

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WTMIL

Not exactly sure what this means, but if you are unable to speak about this incident beyond some silly acronym that says all I need to know.  It says to me that this thread isn't for seeing this as a two way street.  YES there are corrupt cops.  No kidding.

 

However, to speak only about that and say nothing about forces that unreasonably and violently anti-police is (pardon the pun) cop out. This is a case where the police were doing their job trying to bring in a felon who vowed that they would never take him alive on his Facebook page.  All this talk about "showing restraint" and I don't know how you do it when you are charged to bring in felons who don't want to go to jail and are willing to take your life if you dare to do your job.

 

This is the kind of stuff, quite frankly, that makes this thread useless.  And with that, I am done.

You are now free to complain about the police free of my quesioning

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Not exactly sure what this means, but if you are unable to speak about this incident beyond some silly acronym that says all I need to know. It says to me that this thread isn't for seeing this as a two way street. YES there are corrupt cops. No kidding.

 

However, to speak only about that and say nothing about forces that unreasonably and violently anti-police is (pardon the pun) cop out. This is a case where the police were doing their job trying to bring in a felon who vowed that they would never take him alive on his Facebook page. All this talk about "showing restraint" and I don't know how you do it when you are charged to bring in felons who don't want to go to jail and are willing to take your life if you dare to do your job.

 

This is the kind of stuff, quite frankly, that makes this thread useless. And with that, I am done.

You are now free to complain about the police free of my quesioning

MODERATOR WARNING:

The title of this thread is ‘Police Misconduct.’ Of course it’s going to be weighted toward that because that is the subject. And most posters here HAVE STATED there are good cops and bad cops. Most here acknowledge there are many, many good cops out there doing a very difficult job in even more difficult situations. But we are discussing the system that has allowed bad cops to not be held accountable. That is the topic here. You have railed against the thread subject being discussed at all by becoming extremely defensive that some would dare discuss an issue you don’t like. If you don’t like a thread topic, don’t post in it. It’s okay to try and bring some balance, but your tone and respect need some work.

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