Police misconduct

[TheLeviathan]

 

Jesus

 

For the sake of everyone else here I will concede this to you.  Viral videos from YouTube or Facebook. are worthless. 

 

You still dodged my questions and it makes me wonder if you even have an answer.  I will try again (for the third time):

"what methods do you suggest people use to "pressure the courts" and "press for legislation"?

 

Actually explain it in your own words

 

I am quoting from two existing posts:

 

"I'm pretty sure I said pressure legislators and vote for people who will put more pressure on.Hold elected officials accountable if they don't hold police accountable."

 

"To pressure the courts to hold these men and women accountable.To press for legislation if necessary.To elect people who will do more than pay lip service to investigating and prosecuting corruption, incompetence, and illegal policing."

 

I have answered your questions.  Twice.  You wouldn't need a third time if you took the time to read the first time.  I expect an apology - this is on you.  And you do this to many posting here.  If you want an actual dialogue you're going to have to start taking more time to read those that respond to you.

[ewen21]

 

These youtube videos obviously raise public awareness, but there is no way to estimate in what way. They can sometimes hinder the change I'm looking for. For example, someone might see a youtube video that shows a one sided snippet of a good cop doing exactly what he should be doing. Relatively short videos without context could make it appear he's doing something wrong. 
 

Community leaders are so fed up with bad cops getting away with everything, that they unfairly throw any incident that looks bad against the fan to see what sticks. And police unions are so paranoid they'll be thrown under the bus for doing their job, that they protect even the most obviously corrupt cops, in hopes that they'll in return be protected if something they do is fairly or unfairly criticized.

The first underlined section:

 

Over the last several years there has been no shortage of viral videos that inflame tensions for exactly that reason.   Right or wrong they have become relevant because 1) enough people watch them and 2) people react to them.

 

This isn't something the public needs to be "more aware of" for that reason alone.  

 

The second underlined section:

Who are these "community leaders" and shouldn't they be held to more scrutiny as well?

[ewen21]

 

I am quoting from two existing posts:

 

"I'm pretty sure I said pressure legislators and vote for people who will put more pressure on.Hold elected officials accountable if they don't hold police accountable."

 

"To pressure the courts to hold these men and women accountable.To press for legislation if necessary.To elect people who will do more than pay lip service to investigating and prosecuting corruption, incompetence, and illegal policing."

 

I have answered your questions.  Twice.  You wouldn't need a third time if you took the time to read the first time.  I expect an apology - this is on you.  And you do this to many posting here.  If you want an actual dialogue you're going to have to start taking more time to read those that respond to you.

 

You're serious!  Nowhere do you explain what "pressure the courts" or "press for legislation" entails 

 

 For the forth time:

"what methods do you suggest people use to "pressure the courts" and "press for legislation"?

(to help you along I underlined the crucial part of the question you have yet to answer)

 

I will also add.....HOW do you "hold officials accountable"?

(if you can't explain the HOW part of the question then this question awaits an answer as well no matter how many times repeat "hold officials accountable)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

You're serious!  Nowhere do you explain what "pressure the courts" or press for legislation" entails 

 

 For the forth time:

"what methods do you suggest people use to "pressure the courts" and "press for legislation"?

(to help you along I underline the crucial part of the question you have yet to answer)

 

I will also add.....HOW do you "hold officials accountable"?

(if you can't explain the HOW part of the question then this question awaits an answer as well no matter how many times repeat "hold officials accountable)

 

How do we hold any elected officials accountable?  How do you press for any legislation?

[ewen21]

 

How do we hold any elected officials accountable?  How do you press for any legislation?

I have my own ideas, but since you brought it up you ought to explain what it means to you.

 

If you are asking me to explain it to you then you are going to have to say please because you haven't been very nice

[TheLeviathan]

 

I have my own ideas, but since you brought it up you ought to explain what it means to you.

 

If you are asking me to explain it to you then you are going to have to say please because you haven't been very nice

 

Vote them in or out.  Attend city councils.  Call.  Write.  Protest.  Make sure they know the status quo is unacceptable.  Vote them out if they can't or won't change it.

[PseudoSABR]

Is revolution off the table?

[ewen21]

 

Is revolution off the table?

What are you rebeling against?  Just "the police"?

[PseudoSABR]

 

What are you rebeling against?  Just "the police"?

I was just kidding.  As Levi said, you hold people accountable at the ballot box.  But you can also do so through publicity, which in turn affects how politicians do at the ballot box.

 

We've seen reformers get elected as Attorney Generals/District Attorneys recently.  It would be nice to see same get elected to Sheriffs, etc.  

 

Even though people care about this issue, they tune out local politics -- the only real way to make in-roads on these kind of problems. 

[gunnarthor]

I will say that I've spoken at public meetings and the like about police misconduct and one thing I've always urged people to do is to cut funding to law enforcement. It's insane how much even small cities pay to support the police department. Use that money elsewhere and don't let police buy tanks for their swat teams.

[ewen21]

 

I will say that I've spoken at public meetings and the like about police misconduct and one thing I've always urged people to do is to cut funding to law enforcement. It's insane how much even small cities pay to support the police department. Use that money elsewhere and don't let police buy tanks for their swat teams.

 

This is something to take on locally. 

 

By the way, I don't agree with you on cutting funding.  At least not in my neck of the woods.  A town not far from me purged the police department and now it is the jurisdiction of the country.  The town supervisor made a lot of people angry.

 

Depends on where you live.  I guess cops are bashing in skulls left and right where you are.  That isn't happening here

[TheLeviathan]

 

Is revolution off the table?

 

Will you force me to spell out which weapons we'll use or devise elaborate explanations of our guerrilla strategies?

 

Seems like a thread theme.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Will you force me to spell out which weapons we'll use or devise elaborate explanations of our guerrilla strategies?

 

Seems like a thread theme.

What do you even mean by guerrilla tactics? Are we hiding behind trees or trash cans? Are we using grenades or merely automatic weapons? I mean if we're not using a molotov cocktail or two, I don't know how you can call it guerrilla tactics.  And any way, what do you think of chem trails, because that's the heart of the discussion?

[Bark's Lounge]

I don't want to sound too cynical. But who in there right mind would want to be a police officer these days? We are living in an era of lies, deception and the overload of social media hysteria. Certainly there are Captain America types who want to serve the public with honor, but it is really just a job that probably attracts a great percentage of people with bias and disdain for other certain groups - people who are not fit for that duty and want to enforce their idealism. I really don't know how you fix it, but making the job a more lucrative one that could attract intelligent and objective candidates would be a start. IDK? That is my take on it. Higher pay, raising the bar of educational requirements and tough ass psycological tests to get the job.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't want to sound too cynical. But who in there right mind would want to be a police officer these days? We are living in an era of lies, deception and the overload of social media hysteria. Certainly there are Captain America types who want to serve the public with honor, but it is really just a job that probably attracts a great percentage of people with bias and disdain for other certain groups - people who are not fit for that duty and want to enforce their idealism. I really don't know how you fix it, but making the job a more lucrative one that could attract intelligent and objective candidates would be a start. IDK? That is my take on it. Higher pay, raising the bar of educational requirements and tough ass psycological tests to get the job.

 

I would say that is part of the problem.  There is difficulty in finding high quality individuals to be police officers and I think that is lowering the level of quality we get in their professional behavior.  In many areas nothing more than a GED and a physical test is qualifying.

[biggentleben]

 

I don't want to sound too cynical. But who in there right mind would want to be a police officer these days? We are living in an era of lies, deception and the overload of social media hysteria. Certainly there are Captain America types who want to serve the public with honor, but it is really just a job that probably attracts a great percentage of people with bias and disdain for other certain groups - people who are not fit for that duty and want to enforce their idealism. I really don't know how you fix it, but making the job a more lucrative one that could attract intelligent and objective candidates would be a start. IDK? That is my take on it. Higher pay, raising the bar of educational requirements and tough ass psycological tests to get the job.

 

Nevermind that we're defunding (or drastically underfunding) community mental health and substance abuse centers, meaning that the police are now required to be trained in handling mental health emergencies as well as medical emergencies due to overdose as the typical first responder to a situation. Our local officers work well with me, and there have been times that people listening to my conversation with officers after an issue in my home or when I worked in mental health would question my words, but those officers and I had built up a rapport that we could talk freely about how an issue could be handled better. When I ran into issues that required police intervention as a foster parent, it took a single phone call to the right officer to get things moving and get the answers I needed after asking for months for Social Services to do the work to get intervention.

 

That said, our own town's police force is, on average, around #20-25 in the state in average pay. The city ranges from the 7th to 10th largest city in the state in population with one of the largest populations of Karen refugees, a heavy meth and opioid issue, and a very strong mental health center that has led to significant population placed into the city of persons with SPMIs. That's where the rub truly is.

 

The big difference with officers and teaching is that the local town approved significant arms for the underpaid officers to use. The state and local school board continues to cut resources for similarly underpaid teachers. Imagine if we did the opposite...

[ewen21]

Looks like the police roughed up a guy in Dover, NJ. He refused to comply and was punched repeatedly. Is this police misconduct?

 

Not in my book. It was a bit excessive, but you're taking your chances if you don't comply. Run into the wrong cop and this is what could happen to you.

[PseudoSABR]

 

 Run into the wrong cop and this is what could happen to you.

So they are wrong?

 

It's not for individual police to decide what kind of punishment a person should receive. Resisting arrest is its own crime that needs to prosecuted and tried. The police taking it upon themselves to give someone what they deserve runs afoul of our entire system of justice.

[ewen21]

So they are wrong?

 

It's not for individual police to decide what kind of punishment a person should receive. Resisting arrest is its own crime that needs to prosecuted and tried. The police taking it upon themselves to give someone what they deserve runs afoul of our entire system of justice.

It's a two way street. The guy got beat up and that's his fault. The cops used excessive force.

 

To blame the police only is wrong

[Badsmerf]

It's a two way street. The guy got beat up and that's his fault. The cops used excessive force.

 

To blame the police only is wrong

We have a fundamental disagreement on the rights of citizens while being detained and level of professionalism of law enforcement.

[ewen21]

We have a fundamental disagreement on the rights of citizens while being detained and level of professionalism of law enforcement.

Law enforcement is supposed to detail criminals and law breakers. If a law breaker fails to comply law enforcement runs out of options.

 

They are, in the simplest terms: "crime fighters"

If a criminal who is supposed to be detained fights it....what exactly do you prescribe? The cop is supposed to take abuse and just let the perp go?

 

Yeah. We have fundamental differences on this one

[Mr. Brooks]

Law enforcement is supposed to detail criminals and law breakers. If a law breaker fails to comply law enforcement runs out of options.

 

They are, in the simplest terms: "crime fighters"

If a criminal who is supposed to be detained fights it....what exactly do you prescribe? The cop is supposed to take abuse and just let the perp go?

 

Yeah. We have fundamental differences on this one

That's not at all what he said.

The officers job is to use whatever force is necessary to detain the suspect. Any force beyond that is punative. Why does the cop get to dole out punishment? Isn't that what the courts are for?

[ewen21]

 

That's not at all what he said.
The officers job is to use whatever force is necessary to detain the suspect. Any force beyond that is punative. Why does the cop get to dole out punishment? Isn't that what the courts are for?

The cops have been placed on administrative leave (rightfully so) and the guy who got punched in the face is in a cage (where he belongs) awaiting trail.  

 

Cyprian Luke, of Morristown, was a "fugitive wanted for aggravated assault" when Dover police tried to take him into custody early Sunday, the local mayor and public safety director said at a news briefing Monday. He allegedly resisted arrest, they said, and the aftermath played out on shocking cellphone video.

 

So the cops are dispatched to bring in a fugitive who then resists arrest.  I know this is going to upset a lot of people here, but I really don't have a problem with this guy getting punched in the face.  

[PseudoSABR]

 

It's a two way street. The guy got beat up and that's his fault. The cops used excessive force.

To blame the police only is wrong

The guy isn't blameless and he will face charges for resisting arrest (in addition to getting beat up).  What charges (or any accountability) do the police face for using excessive force? 

[PseudoSABR]

 

 

The cops have been placed on administrative leave (rightfully so) and the guy who got punched in the face is in a cage (where he belongs) awaiting trail.  

 

Cyprian Luke, of Morristown, was a "fugitive wanted for aggravated assault" when Dover police tried to take him into custody early Sunday, the local mayor and public safety director said at a news briefing Monday. He allegedly resisted arrest, they said, and the aftermath played out on shocking cellphone video.

 

So the cops are dispatched to bring in a fugitive who then resists arrest.  I know this is going to upset a lot of people here, but I really don't have a problem with this guy getting punched in the face.  

Well if you agree the cops should be placed on administrative leave (hopefully without pay), there's not a lot of disagreement here. 

 

Well, beyond that the police should be allowed to punch people in the face when it's not necessary...

[ewen21]

 

The guy isn't blameless and he will face charges for resisting arrest (in addition to getting beat up).  What charges (or any accountability) do the police face for using excessive force? 

That is going to be under review, I suppose.

 

WE actually don't know enough about the case to make that judgment.  I think it is important to review staements by the police, other witnesses and whatever else that might have captured on surviellance before what the kid's friend captured on his phone.  As is the case with a lot of these phone recordings we don't see how this escalated.  Let's not pretend for a second this guy was "minding his business" when the police rolled up on his and beat him down.  The dude was a fugitive for various charges of domestic violence, missed two court dates and resisted arrest.  It's nearly 2:00AM on a Sunday and he is on his way to get a tattoo?  Hey...The cops used excessive force, but I don't think anyone should be "outraged" over this considering the circumstances

[biggentleben]

I went out at 3AM this week to Wal-mart to make a purchase. I'm lucky the rural SD town I'm in didn't have a police force out looking for me as my purchase was likely questionable as well. If we excuse officers for calling into questions motives due to our own beliefs, we've removed the rights of the accused right there.

[ewen21]

I went out at 3AM this week to Wal-mart to make a purchase. I'm lucky the rural SD town I'm in didn't have a police force out looking for me as my purchase was likely questionable as well. If we excuse officers for calling into questions motives due to our own beliefs, we've removed the rights of the accused right there.

Huh?

[ewen21]

I don't understand the paranoia, Ben. If you missed a few court dates and had a warrant out for you that's when you worry about cops looking for you.

[TheLeviathan]

What the cops are being blamed for IS the excessive force.  That's a large part of what their misconduct comes down to: unnecessary and excessive force.

 

It doesn't seem like you disagree at all that this is police misconduct.