2020 Presidential Election

[LaBombo]

 

The Senate map will suck for a long time, it took the GOP a couple decades of impugning Democrats as worse than Satan, it will take longer to change people's minds.

 

Alternate theory: undecideds and moderates are turned off by EXACTLY this kind of  "good vs. evil" sanctimony, not to mention the absurd alternate reality you're claiming in which mainstream media is complicit in an ongoing, UNILATERAL Republican smear campaign.

 

Just a theory.

 

Of course that theory may be partially a product of my having been called a Nazi on this forum, and with implicit approval of the entirely left-leaning regular posters who were active at the time, so feel free to question my objectivity.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Alternate theory: undecideds and moderates are turned off by EXACTLY this kind of  "good vs. evil" sanctimony, not to mention the absurd alternate reality you're claiming in which mainstream media is complicit in an ongoing, UNILATERAL Republican smear campaign.

 

I can't speak for the mainstream media at all.....but you don't need the mainstream media to accomplish this. The GOP has been very successful at portraying liberals as evil. And intellects. And elites. And all kinds of people. That's not a comment on the media at all.....it has been their strategy since I worked for them in the 80s. 

 

There is no "sanctimony" in my statement, it's been their strategy, whether you like it or not. I'm not smearing anyone, I'm pointing out facts as I know them.

[LaBombo]

 

I can't speak for the mainstream media at all.....but you don't need the mainstream media to accomplish this. The GOP has been very successful at portraying liberals as evil. And intellects. And elites. And all kinds of people. That's not a comment on the media at all.....it has been their strategy since I worked for them in the 80s. 

 

There is no "sanctimony" in my statement, it's been their strategy, whether you like it or not. I'm not smearing anyone, I'm pointing out facts as I know them.

 

That's echo chamber nonsense and you know it. The idea that Democrats have a corner on morality and civility is beyond offensive, and absurd as well.

[Mike Sixel]

 

That's echo chamber nonsense and you know it. The idea that Democrats have a corner on morality and civility is beyond offensive, and absurd as well.

 

I didn't mention anything about Democrats at all. Not one thing.

 

And, it isn't echo chamber nonsense, I used to work for the GOP, in a volunteer basis. It was 100% part of the plan to talk about democrats as if they were bad, evil, other. 

[Mike Sixel]

BTW, I'm not asking you or anyone to believe me.....

[Badsmerf]

Of course that theory may be partially a product of my having been called a Nazi on this forum, and with implicit approval of the entirely left-leaning regular posters who were active at the time, so feel free to question my objectivity.

You keep bringing this up.... I have no shame saying if you support Trump, you're supporting racist, fascist, homophobic, and xenophobic ideas. AKA, what the Nazi party was founded on. This comment you're fixated on was in response to the horrible comments Trump made after Charlottesville.... and the absolutely weak push back from Republicans.

 

You extrapolate whatever you want out of it, but this president doesn't stand for America, he stands for himself. People like Hitler gained power the exact same way Trump has. I guarantee Hitler won't be the last monster our species spawns, and I'll do everything in my power to push back against any hint of it happening in this country.

[PseudoSABR]

 

That's echo chamber nonsense and you know it. The idea that Democrats have a corner on morality and civility is beyond offensive, and absurd as well.

I think it's important to draw a distinction between the GOP and its strategists and actual Republicans.  The GOP has been demonizing the left for decades to the point where Democrats couldn't even self-identify as liberals.  With the Tea Party taking over the GOP the attacks on the Other have amped up manifold.  Both sides do it, but the GOP have been conducting master classes in fear mongering for as long as I can remember both locally and nationally.  And while certainly there's plenty of corrupt Democrats (both morally and legally), given that we live in the age of Trump with the GOP doing very little to bridle his behavior much less publicly call him out, the Democrats may not have the exclusive market on civility, they've certainly got the lion share.   And again, I'm pretty sure Mike and I are talking about politicians not individual party members.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I think it's important to draw a distinction between the GOP and its strategists and actual Republicans.  The GOP has been demonizing the left for decades to the point where Democrats couldn't even self-identify as liberals.  With the Tea Party taking over the GOP the attacks on the Other have amped up manifold.  Both sides do it, but the GOP have been conducting master classes in fear mongering for as long as I can remember both locally and nationally.  And while certainly there's plenty of corrupt Democrats (both morally and legally), given that we live in the age of Trump with the GOP doing very little to bridle his behavior much less publicly call him out, the Democrats may not have the exclusive market on civility, they've certainly got the lion share.   And again, I'm pretty sure Mike and I are talking about politicians not individual party members.

 

right, I thought that was pretty clear.....its the party I'm talking about, not people that vote for them sometimes. 

[ashbury]

Alternate theory: undecideds and moderates are turned off by EXACTLY this kind of  "good vs. evil" sanctimony

Explain Mike Pence^*, then.

 

 

^{* _{Among plenty others}}

[gunnarthor]

 

Good luck in Georgia and Iowa. Ernst is well liked here for some reason. Democrats could lose a house seat here in 2020 too.

Georgia is turning, which is why the GOP is doing everything they can to prevent POC from voting. It'll depend on who the Dems nominate both nationally and in Iowa but I do think a good candidate there + a moderate Dem who can talk about rural issues nationally can flip Iowa. I don't think that is Bernie Sanders.

[TheLeviathan]

Georgia is turning, which is why the GOP is doing everything they can to prevent POC from voting. It'll depend on who the Dems nominate both nationally and in Iowa but I do think a good candidate there + a moderate Dem who can talk about rural issues nationally can flip Iowa. I don't think that is Bernie Sanders.

Do the Dems even have such a candidate? (I agree with everything you said there)

[ewen21]

If you support Trump you are a Nazi, racist, what????

 

If that isn't the quintessential example of liberal intolerance I don't know what is. I did not vote for the guy but he is in office and I support him, after all. He's gotten some things wrong and some things right.

 

I happen to like the fact he is a social gadfly. He's forcing issues out, but at the same time he's creating big time division. One major tool often utilized against anyone who can't testify that Trump is a "racist, islamaphobe, misogynistic, narcissistic......" Is you are branded as any one of--or all of those designations.

 

I see that as not only unfair, but also a sure sign bigotry. It basically says anyone with Trump hats, shirts, etc are racist. The ironic thing is it is my experience such people I see off the internet are quick to say they "don't like judgemental people"

[ewen21]

To be clear, if you are saying someone "supports racist ideas" you are calling that person racist. All it takes is a hat, a shirt, a bumper sticker or and a sign. In fact, possessing any of those things is a risky proposition. Evidence of this is EVERYWHERE.

 

How do we explain the non white people who support Trump?

[PseudoSABR]

We've had this discussion before, and racist etc. goes too far, but certainly his supporters are complicit with such notions, even if they themselves don't hold such views.  

[gunnarthor]

 

If you support Trump you are a Nazi, racist, what????

If that isn't the quintessential example of liberal intolerance I don't know what is. I did not vote for the guy but he is in office and I support him, after all. He's gotten some things wrong and some things right.

I happen to like the fact he is a social gadfly. He's forcing issues out, but at the same time he's creating big time division. One major tool often utilized against anyone who can't testify that Trump is a "racist, islamaphobe, misogynistic, narcissistic......" Is you are branded as any one of--or all of those designations.

I see that as not only unfair, but also a sure sign bigotry. It basically says anyone with Trump hats, shirts, etc are racist. The ironic thing is it is my experience such people I see off the internet are quick to say they "don't like judgemental people"

He said if you support Trump, you're supporting "racist, fascist, homophobic, and xenophobic ideas." He's right. Not sure how you can argue that Trump isn't pushing "racist, fascist, homophobic, and xenophobic ideas." I suppose you can pretend that you don't support the "racist, fascist, homophobic, and xenophobic ideas" that Trump is pushing and you just like the other stuff (which, I dunno, what is that?) that Trump is doing. Maybe you liked the tax bill. That was helpful to some.

 

Maybe you just don't like it when people state obvious things, like Trump is pushing "racist, fascist, homophobic, and xenophobic ideas." Can't really help you there.

[gunnarthor]

 

Do the Dems even have such a candidate? (I agree with everything you said there)

Maybe. Biden certainly could. And, on paper, Klobuchar could be that candidate. Not sure she really is but she seems to understand that we need to talk with those voters and she's done well in rural MN. I have GOP friends living on farms who say they'd vote for her over Trump, so that's something.

 

Mayor Pete? Beto? I'm not sure they could but I'm not sure they couldn't. Warren probably couldn't either but she does actually have some history there so ... unlikely but maybe?

 

I'm actively horrified of Bernie in this area.

[Mr. Brooks]

He said if you support Trump, you're supporting "racist, fascist, homophobic, and xenophobic ideas." He's right. Not sure how you can argue that Trump isn't pushing "racist, fascist, homophobic, and xenophobic ideas." I suppose you can pretend that you don't support the "racist, fascist, homophobic, and xenophobic ideas" that Trump is pushing and you just like the other stuff (which, I dunno, what is that?) that Trump is doing. Maybe you liked the tax bill. That was helpful to some.

 

Maybe you just don't like it when people state obvious things, like Trump is pushing "racist, fascist, homophobic, and xenophobic ideas." Can't really help you there.

Just speaking for myself, if I had to support everything that a candidate stands for, I'd never be able to cast a vote.

 

I understand that for Trump, many of those things you mention are more of a central part of his agenda, and perhaps that is the difference. But still, I'm not comfortable suggesting that 45% of our population supports those things. Because if that is true, we are hopelessly doomed anyway.

[ewen21]

If you are saying some who supports Trunp supports racist, fascist, homophobic, xenophobic ideas you are saying the person is racist.

 

These wild accusations directed toward our president indicts every person who supports him. This mindset demonstrates a form of intolerance that is counterproductive to any kind of discussion regarding politics.

 

Go ahead and be part of that lunch mob. This is the kind of thing, quite frankly, that has played a part in me supporting Trump. I would not vote for him, but this hysteria from the left makes me want to wear a MAGA hat to a Twins game just to watch what will happen.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Maybe. Biden certainly could. And, on paper, Klobuchar could be that candidate. Not sure she really is but she seems to understand that we need to talk with those voters and she's done well in rural MN. I have GOP friends living on farms who say they'd vote for her over Trump, so that's something.

 

Mayor Pete? Beto? I'm not sure they could but I'm not sure they couldn't. Warren probably couldn't either but she does actually have some history there so ... unlikely but maybe?

 

I'm actively horrified of Bernie in this area.

 

I agree, but the ideological left didn't learn the lesson of 2016 I fear.

 

At some point people will realize the GOP stopped believing in anything other than what sells to voters.  The right doesn't truly care about how pure a conservative you are.  They care about winning and will engage in any hypocrisy, court any set of voters, and sell any hairbrained ideas to do it.

 

Meanwhile, the ideological left wants to talk policy and how leftwing it is or isn't and form their circular firing squad.

 

We need blue collar whites to beat Trump.  And beating Trump has to be, by far, priority number one.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I agree, but the ideological left didn't learn the lesson of 2016 I fear.

I think the ideological middle still hasn't learned the lesson of 2016.  (Hillary Clinton was a moderate whether we want to keep ignoring that fact or not).

 

I'll say it over and over, Bernie (and perhaps Warren) has a more appeal to those persuaded by populism than a candidate that tries to pull out the 1980s playbook on Bluedog Democrats.  

 

I don't think people want moderation, they want ideas that actually help their lives.  I think Medicare for all will sell better in the rust belt states than say a public option and championing our convoluted private healthcare system. Though the latter is arguably more moderate.  

 

As for Biden, does he have a single idea other than "I'm an Obama/Biden Democrat." Ugh.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think the ideological middle still hasn't learned the lesson of 2016.  (Hillary Clinton was a moderate whether we want to keep ignoring that fact or not).

 

I'll say it over and over

 

And (as evidenced by your use of "moderate") you will keep being wrong.  I only hope that you, and the many other loud people on the left, will take a long look in the mirror after 2020.  Your ideological selfishness will have steep consequences for us all.

[PseudoSABR]

 

And (as evidenced by your use of "moderate") you will keep being wrong.  I only hope that you, and the many other loud people on the left, will take a long look in the mirror after 2020.  Your ideological selfishness will have steep consequences for us all.

All facts and articulation and none of the insult. Convincing per usual. 

[LaBombo]

 

 

As for Biden, does he have a single idea other than "I'm an Obama/Biden Democrat." Ugh.  

 

Given the high 50's approval rating of that administration both at its end and after it, a campaign strategist might answer that question with another question: "Why would he have to?"

[PseudoSABR]

 

Given the high 50's approval rating of that administration both at its end and after it, a campaign strategist might answer that question with another question: "Why would he have to?"

That's the kind of smugness that lead to Clinton's loss (though she's appreciably more unlikeable). 

 

[PseudoSABR]

FTR, I think any of the Democrats can win, and we (who vote in those primaries) should fight for what kind of policies we want as individuals, and this notion that the moderates or the left are somehow being selfish for fighting for what they believe in is so wrong-headed, it makes me cringe.  We can have different ideas about what will win the election without resorting to self-righteous finger wagging. 

 

I also hope a conservative or three primaries Trump, I don't think they can win, but I do think it could help build a coalition for the party post-Trump.

[TheLeviathan]

All facts and articulation and none of the insult. Convincing per usual.

 

There is no convincing to be achieved. Probably related to why your posts have become so predictable one could type them for you.

 

It's cool. Gunnathor is definitely more liberal than me, I will await continuing with him.

[PseudoSABR]

 

There is no convincing to be achieved. Probably related to why your posts have become so predictable one could type them for you.

It's cool. Gunnathor is definitely more liberal than me, I will await continuing with him.

Look, I don't need to insult you, but you've been saying the same tired song as well.  I just don't understand your notion that disagreeing on how the election should be won and that I want realize my beliefs makes me selfish or any one on the left selfish.  You're trying to do the same thing (believing the best way to defeat Trump is steering towards the center, and that also where your beliefs lie).  I don't fault you for that even if I disagree with your perspective, but the smugness directed my way and at "the left" in general is not only insulting, it's old.  

[LaBombo]

 

That's the kind of smugness that lead to Clinton's loss (though she's appreciably more unlikeable). 

 

I don't think it was or would be smugness, with regard to the platform component of electability at least, to recycle success. If anything (and again, I'm only speculating from a campaign strategist's point of view, not an ideologue's), it would be much more pragmatic than a 'clean slate' approach to platform construction would have been in 2016, when inheriting a share of the popularity banked by your own party's two-term president.

 

Hillary established a left/right track in the Senate that was comparable to or even slightly left of Obama, and her campaign generally didn't stray very far from that in the 2016 election. So with a similar overall ideological blueprint to Obama/Biden but ultimately saddled with a candidate we (and polling) agree was less likable than Obama, Democrats won the popular vote in 2016.

 

Again, I'm not advocating for what I think is best for the country or even the Democratic party; I'm just saying that there's probably a fairly strong contingent inside their machine (strategists, rainmakers, etc) who see A] the electoral landscape as not being direly changed from 2016, B] their loss in that election as more the fault of the candidate than the platform, and C] therefore little incentive to reinvent the Democratic wheel with more spokes made of socialism, particularly when the consequences of a failed experiment are viewed as direly as they are.

 

Then again, in a year's time a portrait of Karl Marx might poll above 55% in a hypothetical head-to-head vs. Trump and by going with Biden, Dems might miss a once-in-a-generation chance to leap to the left and remake the landscape of American politics...

 

... or consign themselves to irrelevancy for the first half of the coming decade, for that matter.

[ashbury]

[TheLeviathan]

LlYou're trying to do the same thing (believing the best way to defeat Trump is steering towards the center, and that also where your beliefs lie).

My god man. I have to keep saying the same thing because you refuse to listen. I'm not advocating Biden or Buttigieg or Klobuchar because they fall in line with me. No one falls in line with me. I have plenty of far left policies I have advocated here (which I now feel the need to repeat since you aren't as capable of keeping up these days): college loan forgiveness, UBI, single payer.

 

My push to beat Trump is based on how 2016 was lost. Not, and I will edit this in freaking neon colors and strobe lights if that's what it takes to get through to you, based on my personal ideological preferences. If that was the case of probably lean Warren. Or not be voting Dem at all. But I want Republicans to lose....so I want the strategy to win and cannibalize over policy later.

 

You want the reverse FOR YOU. That's the differsnce. You aren't alone and that's what worries me.