Park: Gonsalves hits 93 in first spring start of spring

[jimbo92107]

 

Even Maddux wasn't that guy for most of his career. People talk about his control and precision and yadda yadda yadda but tend to forget the guy threw well into the 90s for a large chunk of his career.

 

And he pitched in an era where 80-something mph guys were pretty common. He wasn't a league leader in velocity but was solidly in the upper half of pitcher velocity.

 

Sure, he got by on smoke and mirrors later in his career but gathered up a whopping 93 rWAR through the 2002 season, amassing just 11 more rWAR the final six years of his career as his velocity continued to drop.

Granted, yet Maddux had a mix of pitches you don't see these days. He could cut a fastball left or right with no apparent difference in throwing motion. He controlled his cutters within inches of where he was aiming. He also had great control of his curve. 

 

The only pitcher on the Twins that mastered the Maddux cutter was Bartolo Colon, who extended his career by several years with that pitch...plus a few choice pharmaceuticals.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Granted, yet Maddux had a mix of pitches you don't see these days. He could cut a fastball left or right with no apparent difference in throwing motion. He controlled his cutters within inches of where he was aiming. He also had great control of his curve. 

 

The only pitcher on the Twins that mastered the Maddux cutter was Bartolo Colon, who extended his career by several years with that pitch...plus a few choice pharmaceuticals.

I don't mean to disparage Maddux at all. He was a phenomenal pitcher with a unique skillset. I'm only trying to point out that peoples' memory of him don't really jibe with his actual profile. He didn't lob the ball toward the plate with precision. He hurled that ball with precision.

[howieramone2]

 

I think you are being purposefully obtuse, but doesn;t it seem strange to you that we get prospects like Gonsalves, top prospects in our organization, that are in the system for 6 plus years of minor league success, and yet, they aren't ready in the season they will turn 25? 

 

So, we turn to a pitcher like Marty Perez who wasn't even close to being as successful of a minor leaguer, yet was advanced quicker in some other organization so we sign him to a $3.5 million deal and give him the spot in the rotation instead?

 

Go put Martin Perez and Gonsalves minor league records side by side.  ASk yourself, if Marty Perez was in the Twins organization would he ever had seen the light of the big league team?   Ask yourself, what justified the Rangers in moving him up to the majors at 21 that could not be used to on a myriad of Twins pitchers?  

 

But, the point is that if Gonsalves would have been advanced quicker and brought up to the majors at 21-22 years of age, he would be AT LEAST Martin Perez right now.  And even if he wasn't, we would know and would have moved on to another guy.

Perez is actually 27, the youngest starting pitcher in free agency. He was much higher rated as a prospect that Gonsalves. I believe I read 15-20th prospect in all of baseball. Can't help but notice he touched 97 the other day, which probably makes him the hardest throwing lefty in the organization. 

 

Did you know early in 2017, we had the 2nd youngest team in baseball based on weighted playing time time? Most teams do not promote as quickly as we do.

[ashbury]

Did you know early in 2017, we had the 2nd youngest team in baseball based on weighted playing time time? Most teams do not promote as quickly as we do.

I did not know that!

 

Perhaps it's not correct. b-r.com shows in MLB that our batters were 4th youngest in the majors (behind SDP, PHI and CHW), while our pitchers were actually older (29.6) than league average (28.5). Their weighting is PA+G for batters, and 3GS+G+SV for pitchers. That latter one seems odd, while for the batters I can see giving some weight to defense-only subs, but I very much doubt the weighting with simply PA and IP would make our overall team that season anywhere close to youngest.

 

I have no idea how to locate some point "early" in the season with a radically different makeup, but a fragment of a season can't be very important.

[drivlikejehu]

 

I don't mean to disparage Maddux at all. He was a phenomenal pitcher with a unique skillset. I'm only trying to point out that peoples' memory of him don't really jibe with his actual profile. He didn't lob the ball toward the plate with precision. He hurled that ball with precision.

 

I've seen comments from Maddux to the effect that, based on his size/appearance, and command, he was always seen as a finesse guy, even coming out of HS. It seemed to have really irritated him, since as you note, at the time he had good velocity (especially by prospect standards).

[jimbo92107]

 

I don't mean to disparage Maddux at all. He was a phenomenal pitcher with a unique skillset. I'm only trying to point out that peoples' memory of him don't really jibe with his actual profile. He didn't lob the ball toward the plate with precision. He hurled that ball with precision.

Not only do I agree with you, I watched Maddux go downhill. Living in San Diego at the time, I got to watch Maddux decline. Even with his wizardry with cut fastballs and curves, when his heater dipped below about 88 mph, he was finished. Or what the Twins would call a solid 5th starter!

[howieramone2]

 

I did not know that!

 

Perhaps it's not correct. b-r.com shows in MLB that our batters were 4th youngest in the majors (behind SDP, PHI and CHW), while our pitchers were actually older (29.6) than league average (28.5). Their weighting is PA+G for batters, and 3GS+G+SV for pitchers. That latter one seems odd, while for the batters I can see giving some weight to defense-only subs, but I very much doubt the weighting with simply PA and IP would make our overall team that season anywhere close to youngest.

 

I have no idea how to locate some point "early" in the season with a radically different makeup, but a fragment of a season can't be very important.

The article was posted on this very board. I've cited it in 3 or 4 previous posts.

[mlhouse]

 

Perez is actually 27, the youngest starting pitcher in free agency. He was much higher rated as a prospect that Gonsalves. I believe I read 15-20th prospect in all of baseball. Can't help but notice he touched 97 the other day, which probably makes him the hardest throwing lefty in the organization. 

 

Did you know early in 2017, we had the 2nd youngest team in baseball based on weighted playing time time? Most teams do not promote as quickly as we do.

 

1.  Perez will be 28 years old.

 

2.   Perez's minor league statistics in any measure do not even compare to Stephen Gonsalves.   That is the point.  

 

3.   The rankings are immaterial, except to illustrate how other franchises rapidly promote their highly rated prospects while the Twins do not.

 

4.   Whether we are the 2nd youngest, the 4th youngest, it is also immaterial.  The real fact is that we are now on the 9th year of a rebuilding process with the past 8 seasons including a  103 loss season,  4 years of 96 or more losses, and just two seasons above .500.   WIth all of the high draft picks the Twinshave had over the period and the futility of all the losing, we should be the system that promotes their prospects THE FASTEST, not the slowest.   All of the history of losing, and we still do not have a competitive team just proves my point about the organization. 

[Danchat]

 

1.  Perez will be 28 years old.

 

2.   Perez's minor league statistics in any measure do not even compare to Stephen Gonsalves.   That is the point.  

 

3.   The rankings are immaterial, except to illustrate how other franchises rapidly promote their highly rated prospects while the Twins do not.

 

4.   Whether we are the 2nd youngest, the 4th youngest, it is also immaterial.  The real fact is that we are now on the 9th year of a rebuilding process with the past 8 seasons including a  103 loss season,  4 years of 96 or more losses, and just two seasons above .500.   WIth all of the high draft picks the Twinshave had over the period and the futility of all the losing, we should be the system that promotes their prospects THE FASTEST, not the slowest.   All of the history of losing, and we still do not have a competitive team just proves my point about the organization. 

I'm not sure about this... just because we have higher picks doesn't mean that we should promote guys faster. I know a lot of high Twins draft picks have been high schoolers, who I don't think you can rush quite as fast. There's a handful of players they've babied and probably could have developed faster, but there's also been a few that they rushed (Hicks/Buxton). It did seem like Nick Gordon and Gonsalves were unnecessarily playing in AA last year after they proved themselves the prior year, but I think we can see why they were babied... Gordon wasn't ready for AAA pitching and Gonsalves was not ready for the majors. I specifically remember that the new FO was slow-cooking Gonsalves so that he could work on his off-speed pitches because they were worried that his fastball wasn't going to be good enough, and after seeing him pitch, I fully understand why that was.

[mlhouse]

 

I'm not sure about this... just because we have higher picks doesn't mean that we should promote guys faster. I know a lot of high Twins draft picks have been high schoolers, who I don't think you can rush quite as fast. There's a handful of players they've babied and probably could have developed faster, but there's also been a few that they rushed (Hicks/Buxton). It did seem like Nick Gordon and Gonsalves were unnecessarily playing in AA last year after they proved themselves the prior year, but I think we can see why they were babied... Gordon wasn't ready for AAA pitching and Gonsalves was not ready for the majors. I specifically remember that the new FO was slow-cooking Gonsalves so that he could work on his off-speed pitches because they were worried that his fastball wasn't going to be good enough, and after seeing him pitch, I fully understand why that was.

 

If you look at the Twins roster and the age of their debut, you will see that your position cannot be defended.   

[jorgenswest]

1. Perez will be 28 years old.

 

2. Perez's minor league statistics in any measure do not even compare to Stephen Gonsalves. That is the point.

 

3. The rankings are immaterial, except to illustrate how other franchises rapidly promote their highly rated prospects while the Twins do not.

 

4. Whether we are the 2nd youngest, the 4th youngest, it is also immaterial. The real fact is that we are now on the 9th year of a rebuilding process with the past 8 seasons including a 103 loss season, 4 years of 96 or more losses, and just two seasons above .500. WIth all of the high draft picks the Twinshave had over the period and the futility of all the losing, we should be the system that promotes their prospects THE FASTEST, not the slowest. All of the history of losing, and we still do not have a competitive team just proves my point about the organization.

Is it possible they promoted some players too fast?

 

Hicks, Arcia, Buxton all came up for the first time with little or no AAA experience and all had difficulty with pitch recognition whether it is recognizing a pitch to lay off or in Hicks case a pitch to attack.

 

I don’t know if Gonzalves can get major league hitters out but his own command was at best questionable in AAA last year. Major leagues hitters will take advantage where the minor leaguers did not. It isn’t clear to me he is better option than Perez though he his 3 years younger. There is more work Gonzalves can be doing in AAA with his command.

[howieramone2]

 

1.  Perez will be 28 years old.

 

2.   Perez's minor league statistics in any measure do not even compare to Stephen Gonsalves.   That is the point.  

 

3.   The rankings are immaterial, except to illustrate how other franchises rapidly promote their highly rated prospects while the Twins do not.

 

4.   Whether we are the 2nd youngest, the 4th youngest, it is also immaterial.  The real fact is that we are now on the 9th year of a rebuilding process with the past 8 seasons including a  103 loss season,  4 years of 96 or more losses, and just two seasons above .500.   WIth all of the high draft picks the Twinshave had over the period and the futility of all the losing, we should be the system that promotes their prospects THE FASTEST, not the slowest.   All of the history of losing, and we still do not have a competitive team just proves my point about the organization. 

Can you cite anything that shows we promote the slowest? I didn't see a point you proved, but I saw several statements which were far from correct. Also, Gonsalves may have the stats, but nowhere near the stuff. 

[mlhouse]

 

Also, Gonsalves may have the stats, but nowhere near the stuff. 

 

Then the Twins are in real trouble, right?  When one of their top ranked prospects over the past 6 years has "nowhere near the stuff" as moved slowly through the system.

 

I get it.  I am not arguing that all prospects will work out.  Far from it.  But I fail to see how the Twins system works when a guy like Gonsalves takes 6 years to make the major leagues all the while having success at every level of the minors.

[mlhouse]

 

I don’t know if Gonzalves can get major league hitters out but his own command was at best questionable in AAA last year. Major leagues hitters will take advantage where the minor leaguers did not. It isn’t clear to me he is better option than Perez though he his 3 years younger. There is more work Gonzalves can be doing in AAA with his command.

 

 

Is it possible they promoted some players too fast?

Hicks, Arcia, Buxton all came up for the first time with little or no AAA experience and all had difficulty with pitch recognition whether it is recognizing a pitch to lay off or in Hicks case a pitch to attack.

I don’t know if Gonzalves can get major league hitters out but his own command was at best questionable in AAA last year. Major leagues hitters will take advantage where the minor leaguers did not. It isn’t clear to me he is better option than Perez though he his 3 years younger. There is more work Gonzalves can be doing in AAA with his command.

 

 

1.  No.  We have not promoted some players too fast.   Compare the debut ages of the top players of the Twins and other organizations.  When you factor in that the Twins are a bad team trying to rebuild, there is no other conclusion you can make.

 

2.   Pitch recognition at the major league level is something young players have to work on AT THE MAJOR LEAGUE LEVEL.  Byron Buxton's career OPS in AAA is 901.   Sending players back to the minors to work on things that can only be worked on at the major league level makes zero sense.  A rebuilding team should have these players at the highest level developing.  Not hammering minor league pitching or cruising through innings against inferior hitters.

 

3.   Gonsalves had a 2.96 ERA last season in AAA.  He gets minor league hitters out. 634 strikeouts in 599 innings.  2.46 career minor league ERA.   Sending him back down to get more minor league hitters out probably isn't going to make any difference and if the issues are correctable command issues, then what has the Twins organization been FN doing all of these years?   It isn't like he is a 19 year old that was rushed through the minors.  

 

4.  Was Acia rushed?   He only played a partial season of AAA (which he hammered with a 1.026 OPS) and was 22 years old at debut.  That is relatively young for a Twin prospect to arrive at the MLB level, but not for other organizations.  But then, the 2013 team that Acia debut on was a 66-96 team that Gardie found 471 PA for Josh WIllingham, 322  for Clete Thomas and 181 for Chris Colabello.  The real question is why did they wait so damn long to bring up Acia on a team that lost all those games in 2011, 2012, and 2013.......

 

 

In the end, the Twins organization, both the old and the new front offices, have preferred to put in mediocre at best "veteran" pitchers and players instead of their own prospects for years.  Maybe this is just an indictment of their prospects,  but Twins prospects move slowly through the system and then arrive at the majors with lots of holes in their games.  Developing the young prospects should have been the priority, even if that meant losing games.  But, the Twins still lost games and never developed their prospects.  

 

So, here we are.