Article: The Discard Pile

[Ex-Iowegian]

 

In my now cynical and less hopeful eyes, I think it says they don’t think this core will do it so they are adding just ‘hoping for some lightning’ players to fill the roster. Until the next wave comes through. Same old story. And what does it say to this core? If I’m this core I’m going to do as well as I can, biding my time until I can get out from under such a winning mentality. (In case anyone didn’t catch it, my winning mentality comment was sarcasm.) If Im this year’s core I’m thinking that’s one huge Sisyphusian goal they’ve been given.

This FO has built a team that might be barely competitive ... competitive, not winning ... in the AL central, and the AL central only ... and that’s if all the ifs come together. Remember how excited we were last year? Yeah, fool me once ...
 

This.

The bar is set too low. And I have no idea how the new regime is supposed to change it. 

I do know that I am tired of watching poorly executed, uninspired baseball in relation to the contending markets that are in the fight every year. And I don't mean Cleveland.

[bird]

 

The FA signings have been (justifiably) hammered a lot, but little mention has been made of this:

 

Why not make freaking trade?  There are guys available for a song (like Sonny Gray, Zack Grienke, etc.) that could help this team and you'd get tremendous value.  

 

The lack of spending exists in several aspects.  Ultimately, I'm just disappointed they haven't added more to this core with the resources and options available.  As the data shows, good teams build through a variety of avenues.  It'd be nice if we were exploring more of them than the "Who will sign a one year deal with us at a below market price?"

 

 

I get this. But part of me questions a couple of the notions underlying the frustration.

 

The first notion is that the singular consideration behind this off-season's one-year signings is financial. I'm not buying it. I see other very solid reasons for each of these transactions, although I'd venture to guess that the Cron conversation was quite different than the other three, meaning it had more to do with being opportunistic and "settling" on Cron as a reasonable solution whereas the others were more "best fit" decisions.

 

I don't buy the "who will sign a one-year deal at below market price?" thing. To buy it, I'd have to reconcile examples where they were in serous talks where this criteria wasn't relevant.

 

I also don't buy that they won't trade if they can take advantage of the right situation. Lewis, Kirilloff, and Graterol are probably untouchable. I won't argue that other prospects couldn't lure talent. Maybe Greinke wouldn't require the inclusion of one of those three, I don't know. But I think it's entirely possible that, while by their own admission they have been open to going the trade route, they have determined that they can best fill the gaps in the manner they have been.

 

You didn't make this statement, but someone else did in this thread, I believe. And that is that no championship calibre team does it by relying on just a few standout players. I think the opposite is true, that teams build around a core. I think most of us agree on this point. Where we break down in our consensus is 1) who is core? and 2) what about the unknown? It's always going to be a matter of placing a bet for the FO, so the question isn't so much certainty but whether you have a hand that should be bet.

 

This FO has no choice IMO. You bet the hand on the core: Berrios, Gibson, May Rogers, Sano, Buxton, Rosario, Kepler, and Polanco. One can argue a name or two either mentioned or not mentioned, but the point is, this FO is making decisions for 2019 to support this core group, knowing that additional internal  reinforcements are close to being ready, and some of those will conceivably be regarded as core players too. We all know who they are.

 

I'm not fond of the description of Cruz, Schoop, Parker, and even Cron as having been discarded. They weren't. Other teams wouldn't pay the required price is all. Each and every one of them has a chance to contribute extra wins for this team. Nothing wrong with that, right?

 

I'm gonna hammer them if they don't deliver one more premier reliever, a reliever who would be viewed as part of the core. But I actually think their bet on the rest of the core is smart and I actually think the other moves are good bets too, no less certain than other choices in FA. And I like that they still have a fully stocked pipeline and a full wallet for later.

Edited January 21, 2019 by birdwatcher

[Squirrel]

 

I get this. But part of me questions a couple of the notions underlying the frustration.

 

The first notion is that the singular consideration behind this off-season's one-year signings is financial. I'm not buying it. I see other very solid reasons for each of these transactions, although I'd venture to guess that the Cron conversation was quite different than the other three, meaning it had more to do with being opportunistic and "settling" on Cron as a reasonable solution whereas the others were more "best fit" decisions.

 

I don't buy the "who will sign a one-year deal at below market price?" thing. To buy it, I'd have to reconcile examples where they were in serous talks where this criteria wasn't relevant.

 

I also don't buy that they won't trade if they can take advantage of the right situation. Lewis, Kirilloff, and Graterol are probably untouchable. I won't argue that other prospects couldn't lure talent. Maybe Greinke wouldn't require the inclusion of one of those three, I don't know. But I think it's entirely possible that, while by their own admission they have been open to going the trade route, they have determined that they can best fill the gaps in the manner they have been.

 

You didn't make this statement, but someone else did in this thread, I believ. And that is that no championship calibre team does it by relying on just a few standout players. I think the opposite is true, that teams build around a core. I think most of us agree on this point. Where we break down in our consensus is 1) who is core? and 2) what about the unknown? It's always going to be a matter of placing a bet for the FO, so the question isn't so much certainty but whether you have a hand that should be bet.

 

This FO has no choice IMO. You bet the hand on the core: Berrios, Gibson, May Rogers, Sano, Buxton, Rosario, Kepler, and Polanco. One can argue a name or two either mentioned or not mentioned, but the point is, this FO is making decisions for 2019 to support this core group, knowing that additional internal  reinforcements are close to being ready, and some of those will conceivably be regarded as core players too. We all know who they are.

 

I'm not fond of the description of Cruz, Schoop, Parker, and even Cron as having been discarded. They weren't. Other teams wouldn't pay the required price is all. Each and every one of them has a chance to contribute extra wins for this team. Nothing wrong with that, right?

 

I'm gonna hammer them if they don't deliver one more premier reliever, but I actually think their bet on the core is smart and I actually think the other moves are good bets too, no less certain than other choices in FA. And I like that they still have a fully stocked pipeline and a full wallet for later.

I respect your view, even if I don't completely agree with it. I've said this before, but one of the big reasons I wanted a Machado is because I believe in this team, I think it's on the verge, and if even 3 of those 7 you named really puts it together, Machado adds to that and puts them in range of Boston and New York and well past Cleveland. You bet on that hand and land the final card in the royal flush. (Okay, so I really am not a poker person so really shouldn't be using poker analogies.) This is part of my frustration through early 2000's ... we had teams that were just there and another addition would likely have put them over into real contention. (Yes, I know, there's no way of knowing that for sure, but, this is all a gamble.) And I just don't see a change in business. This was the year for opportunity ... and for me, I see it squandered. Yes, I'm frustrated.

[wsnydes]

I'm pretty frustrated with how the last two offseason's have gone. The lack of long term commitment is confusing and frustrating on its own. One thing that I do firmly believe is that ownership has told the FO that they are willing to be patient with a ground up rebuild of not just the roster, but the organization as a whole. That is going to take time. That part I'm on board with. However, I do think that this front office, as well as the preceding one, built themselves into a corner in which it will be difficult to get out of. Some of it has to do with the floundering core of Sano and Buxton. Those two were the linchpins of a resurgent franchise. That hasn't panned out thus far and it appears as though the FO is setting themselves up to completely blow it up or pounce should it actually all come together. There is some wisdom to that approach, except in my view, it seems like they're betting against themselves. The lack of long term investments (financial or otherwise) in players outside of the organization does nothing to solidify any position and provides you nothing to build around. It would seem that they're kicking the same problems down the road which turns into a never ending cycle of mediocrity.

 

It's one thing to wait a bit for the ground up turnover to start making an impact, but doing nothing at the top side to provide any sort of trickle down positive impact is stunting the growth of the franchise in my view. It also does nothing to inspire fans to spend money on the team or come to the ballpark. So by the time this thing gets turned around, there may not be many left around that will actually notice or care. I'm not asking them to go out and buy a new lineup, I'm simply looking for an impact move that can be built upon.

[bird]

 

No one is arguing against development being the primary route to success. No one on this site ever has. Ever.

We might need to think about this statement for a minute, Mike. Have we not heard arguments that spending is the primary route ? Or more accurately, a lack of spending is the primary reason for poor results? We used to get lots of arguments that they just can't draft well, although that faded and even morphed into the more reasoned arguments that development was an area of deficiency.

 

I guess I'll be the first one on this site, ever, to argue that development is not THE primary route to success. It's like a body part that requires a connection to other vitals. It's probably semantical and we agree that development capacity is essential, like a heart, and were getting heart healthy now. Our scouting function has been very good for a decade, I'm seeing signs that trading will be a strength and an active avenue for this FO, and I'm in the minority in thinking spending will cease to be much of a problem in the future.

Edited January 21, 2019 by birdwatcher

[Battle ur tail off]

 

They were in on Darvish last year till the end, and you see how that worked out.

 

A franchise can spend a ton on players and have it blow up in their face.

 

So, the best strategy is to hedge bets, spend what is prudent and pick up what looks like under-valued talent

 

The hope is the same with home-grown talent as what you pick up on the free market.

 

Twins will never win by out-spending New York, LA, Houston and Boston.

 

No, they weren't in on Darvish till the end. That is Twins speak for: we low balled a player and acted like there was a chance, when we knew damn well there wasn't. It's OK to go out a sign a stud and pay him big money. 

What is the point in grabbing 4 players for 32 million a year? How about, 1 or 2 players for that same money? Then fill in with your system. I am so sick of the Twins way of acquiring piles of mediocre players thinking that they will get lucky some time. You are better off bringing in less guys on higher money deals. That way you get real talent. Not fringe guys or guys other teams don't want any part of. Just bite the bullet for a change. It gets old. 

[Battle ur tail off]

 

To me the Twins are between a rock and a hard place with their roster.  What happens if Buxton, Sano, Berrios, or even Kepler lives up to their potential.  Buxton hits for a 290 average with his usual defense, Sano hits over 40 bombs and has a 270 batting average, Berrios wins 20 games with over 200 strike outs and Kepler hits 30 bombs with at 270 batting average.  You spend 20 plus million dollars over 7 years on someone like Manny Machado and what do you do with our own if the switch flips and they produce like everyone thinks they should.  Unfortunately the Twins are not able to have the payroll of the the Yankees, Red Sox or Dodgers have and would have to get rid of a couple of them.  What happens if Gibson all of a sudden figures it out and wins 20 games.  its all possible and it could all happen next year if the stars align.  The problem is the Twins have too many young players with high ceilings, and high ceilings means big payroll in the near future and Falvey and Levine have to keep that in mind when they put this years roster together.

 

You pay them all and win a WS. Or you can identify guys that you don't think you will need a trade them for the best prospects in the game. Having too much talent is never a bad problem to have. 

 

 

Edited January 21, 2019 by Battle ur tail off

[ahart10]

The MLB isn’t Cinderella. Pumpkins don’t turn into chariots and carry you off to the ball to meet your Prince Charming. That’s what is gonna have to happen if this roster plans on contending/competing.

Blow it up or push the chips in. I’d even be happy if all the chips were pushed in on a bluff.

Edited January 21, 2019 by ahart10

[djvang]

I expect the Twins to make the playoffs this year because expectations are so low. It's the way they baseball.

[USAFChief]

To me the Twins are between a rock and a hard place with their roster. What happens if Buxton, Sano, Berrios, or even Kepler lives up to their potential. Buxton hits for a 290 average with his usual defense, Sano hits over 40 bombs and has a 270 batting average, Berrios wins 20 games with over 200 strike outs and Kepler hits 30 bombs with at 270 batting average. You spend 20 plus million dollars over 7 years on someone like Manny Machado and what do you do with our own if the switch flips and they produce like everyone thinks they should. Unfortunately the Twins are not able to have the payroll of the the Yankees, Red Sox or Dodgers have and would have to get rid of a couple of them. What happens if Gibson all of a sudden figures it out and wins 20 games. its all possible and it could all happen next year if the stars align. The problem is the Twins have too many young players with high ceilings, and high ceilings means big payroll in the near future and Falvey and Levine have to keep that in mind when they put this years roster together.

The Twins shouldn't spend money because every possible thing might go RIGHT??

[BJames]

The F.O needs to be signing a Solid #2 pitcher for 2 year with an option for the 3rd.  The Santana deal was good for the Twins.  Why are we not signing Pitchers?  And I'm not talking about #3-4 or 5 types. We have the everyday guys.  We need some one to back-up Barrios!!!   Gibson doesn't cut it.

[Tomj14]

 

The future of this team is the Lewis-Kirilloff-Berrios core with the hope that prospects from the set of Rooker, Gordon, Romero, Thorpe, Gonsalves, Enlow, Larnach, Jeffers, Arraez amongst others can play strong supporting roles.   Then hope that at least a couple of the previous highly touted group Sano, Buxton, Kepler, Polanco can join Rosario to fill out that team. Make a smart trade here and there, find a gem in Rule 5, add a hustle guy like WIllians Astudillio and that is the team you hope has a chance.

 

If this is True, the Twins did even a worse job then what everybody is saying.

Maybe, just Maybe Lewis and Kirilloff come up at the end of the year, then 2020 would be there first year and big things would be expected in 2021, that is last year of control for most of the twins young guys. If they believe that they should have traded everybody for another group to come up with these two.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I get this. But part of me questions a couple of the notions underlying the frustration.

 

The first notion is that the singular consideration behind this off-season's one-year signings is financial. I'm not buying it. I see other very solid reasons for each of these transactions, although I'd venture to guess that the Cron conversation was quite different than the other three, meaning it had more to do with being opportunistic and "settling" on Cron as a reasonable solution whereas the others were more "best fit" decisions.

 

I don't buy the "who will sign a one-year deal at below market price?" thing. To buy it, I'd have to reconcile examples where they were in serous talks where this criteria wasn't relevant.

 

I also don't buy that they won't trade if they can take advantage of the right situation. Lewis, Kirilloff, and Graterol are probably untouchable. I won't argue that other prospects couldn't lure talent. Maybe Greinke wouldn't require the inclusion of one of those three, I don't know. But I think it's entirely possible that, while by their own admission they have been open to going the trade route, they have determined that they can best fill the gaps in the manner they have been.

 

You didn't make this statement, but someone else did in this thread, I believe. And that is that no championship calibre team does it by relying on just a few standout players. I think the opposite is true, that teams build around a core. I think most of us agree on this point. Where we break down in our consensus is 1) who is core? and 2) what about the unknown? It's always going to be a matter of placing a bet for the FO, so the question isn't so much certainty but whether you have a hand that should be bet.

 

This FO has no choice IMO. You bet the hand on the core: Berrios, Gibson, May Rogers, Sano, Buxton, Rosario, Kepler, and Polanco. One can argue a name or two either mentioned or not mentioned, but the point is, this FO is making decisions for 2019 to support this core group, knowing that additional internal  reinforcements are close to being ready, and some of those will conceivably be regarded as core players too. We all know who they are.

 

I'm not fond of the description of Cruz, Schoop, Parker, and even Cron as having been discarded. They weren't. Other teams wouldn't pay the required price is all. Each and every one of them has a chance to contribute extra wins for this team. Nothing wrong with that, right?

 

I'm gonna hammer them if they don't deliver one more premier reliever, a reliever who would be viewed as part of the core. But I actually think their bet on the rest of the core is smart and I actually think the other moves are good bets too, no less certain than other choices in FA. And I like that they still have a fully stocked pipeline and a full wallet for later.

I'm failing to see how Parker and Perez are better fits than their more talented counterparts the Twins watched sign short term deals elsewhere. If those signings are financially motivated we're looking at a much larger issue within this organization... 

 

I really hope they aren't satisfied with how they've been filling gaps on this roster. IMO they've done little to nothing over the last 3 off-seasons to add meaningful talent.

 

I'm sure the Pohlads love that the wallet is full but as was mentioned earlier, that money doesn't roll over. They aren't "saving," $30M this season and spending it on top of the supposed goal of allocating 50% of revenue to payroll next year.

 

 

[rdehring]

Can we all sit back and wait until the season starts to bash the FO for what they did, or didn't do.  Heck, last year they signed most of their big signees during spring training.  And didn't they also complete their biggest trade (Odorizzi) during spring training?

 

As for all the talk about what their payroll should be and how much the Pohlads make, none of you know what you speak of unless you have seen their financial statements.  And I am guessing that none of you have.  All the reports you hear are hearsay, even if the person making it maintains he/she did see their financials.

 

For some of us, this constant bashing of everything management is doing gets very old.  

Edited January 21, 2019 by rdehring

[darin617]

What it seems to me is like they are given a number that they cannot spend over and whatever they have left over they get to keep. It would be different if Cleveland didn't drop as much as they have.

 

Sad part is that the Twins were only a few good moves away from possibly stealing away the division if they didn't keep dumpster diving for "talent."

 

I'm not saying it required a Bryce Harper type signing to do it.

[ashbury]

Can we all sit back and wait until the season starts to bash the FO for what they did, or didn't do.  Heck, last year they signed most of their big signees during spring training.  And didn't they also complete their biggest trade (Odorizzi) during spring training?

 

As for all the talk about what their payroll should be and how much the Pohlads make, none of you know what you speak of unless you have seen their financial statements.  And I am guessing that none of you have.  All the reports you hear are hearsay, even if the person making it maintains he/she did see their financials.

 

For some of us, this constant bashing of everything management is doing gets very old.  

Your point isn't completely bad, but let's please keep this thread on the topic that the article laid out, namely the roster choices, and not go off onto a tangent about fellow posters.

 

Also, keep in mind that the voices you are hearing are neither monolithic nor static. Me for instance: I've felt more critical of the moves this season than in years past, and I've been saying so. That doesn't make it "constant bashing".

 

What's more, if I hold my tongue now, and then complain if they get off to a 10-25 start, then I'm being a front runner. Instead, I'm expressing my concerns, and if they're proved wrong I'll acknowledge that.

 

This place is for good conversation. We shouldn't try to squelch it.

 

If you or others feel the need to talk further about the attitudes of fellow posters, please start a new thread.

[bird]

 

I'm failing to see how Parker and Perez are better fits than their more talented counterparts the Twins watched sign short term deals elsewhere. If those signings are financially motivated we're looking at a much larger issue within this organization... 

 

I really hope they aren't satisfied with how they've been filling gaps on this roster. IMO they've done little to nothing over the last 3 off-seasons to add meaningful talent.

 

I'm sure the Pohlads love that the wallet is full but as was mentioned earlier, that money doesn't roll over. They aren't "saving," $30M this season and spending it on top of the supposed goal of allocating 50% of revenue to payroll next year.

I'm failing to see that too, which is why I'm disgruntled if they don't add a premier RP, now probably via trade. I'm on record as saying the Perez deal is perplexing.

 

I'm limiting my opinion here to this offseason. But the prospect pundits believe they've added lots of talent that just hasn't made it to the big club in a forceful way. Yet. I think the Cruz, Schoop, Cron, and Parker moves look like solid bets. Some think the rotation is inadequate. I think it may or may not be. So, other than a back end RP, I'm impressed with how they solved the other problems.

 

Pohlad blah blah cheap blah blah. Old, tired, unproductive, polarizing discussion. Nothing good comes of it. Yawn.

 

Edited January 21, 2019 by birdwatcher

[by jiminy]

Pohlad blah blah cheap blah blah. ... Yawn.

Funny, that is my feeling about the Twins.  ...Yawn.

 

How could anyone possibly be excited about this team? For the second straight year (at least), the bullpen was an obvious need. And there were loads of quality arms on the market, most of whom signed two-year contracts for less than $10M a year. Even I, a long-time Pohlad skeptic, assumed we would sign a couple quality relievers.

 

That wouldn't even bring payroll up to league average, or up to 50% of revenue. To not even do that is just baffling. I don't know why I even pay attention to a team that is spending under 40% of revenue on payroll. What's the point? I am starting to spend more time on athleticsnation, and it's a lot more fun. I also like the Brewers, and anyone else who can give the bloated coastal payroll monsters a run for their money. But this one isn't even trying.

 

Most of their key players had a bad year last year. Some may rebound. But even if Buxton, Sano, Schoop, Kepler, and all our other former-future-stars miraculously blossom at once, it won't matter, because they don't have the pitching to compete.

 

Match our lineup,  our rotation, and our bullpen, man for man, with the Yankees. Is there one player who could beat out their counterpart for a job?

 

I don't need a championship to enjoy baseball. I can enjoy a pennant race, even knowing they can't really win in the playoffs. And it wouldn't take much to deliver one, in this division. But they have barely even pretended to fill the many holes left from last year.  And the odds of all their long-shot bets hitting at once are so low, I can't get excited until I actually see it happening, which it probably won't.

 

Rooting for a team like this is all about hope. All it would have taken to hook me would be to shell out a league average payroll. Give me one real playoff quality starter, and two legit bullpen arms, and I will start dreaming on the potential of all their giant question marks. I've been enjoying the thrill of "what if" my whole life. I would do it again if, you gave me even the pretense of real hope. But this year, I'm not feeling it.

[ewen21]

I think the biggest issue within this organization is culture.  And although that may seem vague and hard to fathom, it exists.  I think all of us see it to varying degrees.  There hasn't been a whole lot coming from the system over the last 15 seasons.  I would say the last time I saw a couple of young players really carry the organization was with Johan and Frankie in 2006.  There just has not been much of anything consistent or impactful coming through the system.  What kind of pitching have we raised?  Aside from Sano where is are players who came through our system since 2006 ended who has been in an ASG?  It's abysmal.  It is embarrassing.  Make no mistake there are reasons for that in the ways the Twins attempt to raise young players.  There cannot be NO CONNECTION

 

I think the development of these current young players the Twins committed to dictates the course of action for this current regime in the next two seasons.  I think the young guys: Sano, Buxton and Kepler have the next two seasons.  If they become consistent performers along with Rosario and Polanco THEN I would like to see us dig into the free agent market.  What are we supposed to do?  Sign a top tier free agent to play with a bunch of over-hyped under-achieving players?

 

I am hoping Cruz and Baldelli are guys who will shift the culture.  I have only praise about Nelson Cruz.  He is a big tough hombre, more of a silent leader you want players to emulate.  He's got the strong work ethic and a stature about him.  I was not fond of Rocco visiting Sano at first, but I totally get it and I think it was 100% positive.  I think getting Baldelli signals a shift.  He is "Falvine's guy" and I think they had the right idea signing him.  My greatest concern with the move is that Rocco is too much of a player's manager and an inexperienced game manager.

 

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by ewen21

[TheLeviathan]

 

 

This FO has no choice IMO. You bet the hand on the core: Berrios, Gibson, May Rogers, Sano, Buxton, Rosario, Kepler, and Polanco. One can argue a name or two either mentioned or not mentioned, but the point is, this FO is making decisions for 2019 to support this core group, knowing that additional internal  reinforcements are close to being ready, and some of those will conceivably be regarded as core players too. We all know who they are.

 

I'm not fond of the description of Cruz, Schoop, Parker, and even Cron as having been discarded. They weren't. Other teams wouldn't pay the required price is all. Each and every one of them has a chance to contribute extra wins for this team. Nothing wrong with that, right?

 

I'm gonna hammer them if they don't deliver one more premier reliever, a reliever who would be viewed as part of the core. But I actually think their bet on the rest of the core is smart and I actually think the other moves are good bets too, no less certain than other choices in FA. And I like that they still have a fully stocked pipeline and a full wallet for later.

 

You can also "bet on the core" but supplementing them with more talent.  As I'm typing this, I can't see how you think this strategy is betting on them.  This is playing the middle - it's giving them a little bit of help but not over-committing because you still don't trust them.  

 

You could further help this core without replacing them.  No one is suggesting  you bump any of those guys out of their spot.  I'm ok with Cruz and Schoop as buy low options.  But Cron at 1st?  He's literally the closest thing to discarded you can get for an MLB player.  They could have seriously upgraded that spot.  They could've added a serious starting pitcher.  Or several relievers.

 

They didn't invest in the core.  They waded in halfway and decided to play it safe.  

[jtkoupal]

I just don't get the approach being this conservative given the division being in the state that it is in. Cleveland won 91 games last year, and their team, thus far, has gotten worse. The Tigers and Royals probably won't be good, and the White Sox are far from a sure thing. A few dollars could go a long way here.

 

 

That being said, I also understand that this season largely rides on Buxton, Sanó bouncing back and guys like Kepler and Polanco progressing. Also, the top of the rotation has to be good as well.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I'm failing to see that too, which is why I'm disgruntled if they don't add a premier RP, now probably via trade. I'm on record as saying the Perez deal is perplexing.

 

I'm limiting my opinion here to this offseason. But the prospect pundits believe they've added lots of talent that just hasn't made it to the big club in a forceful way. Yet. I think the Cruz, Schoop, Cron, and Parker moves look like solid bets. Some think the rotation is inadequate. I think it may or may not be. So, other than a back end RP, I'm impressed with how they solved the other problems.

 

Pohlad blah blah cheap blah blah. Old, tired, unproductive, polarizing discussion. Nothing good comes of it. Yawn.

Thats totally reasonable, I'm just much less confident that a big move is coming. 

 

Admittedly I'm a little more jaded after witnessing what was supposed to be an even better class struggle to take hold. I haven't given up on Buxton, Sano, or Kepler by any means, but there will always be another wave of talent coming. Saying we need to wait for its arrival is just a distraction from a mediocre at best on field product. In a vacuum all three signings are justifiable. In reality this team needs more.  

 

It's certainly beaten to death, but there's an effort right now to find any reason other than stinginess to explain the current situation. We can agree that it's tiring, but we also don't need to rationalize the lack of spending as patience or a savvy long term play, not that you're advocating strongly for either. 

[sweetmusicviola16]

 

Thats totally reasonable, I'm just much less confident that a big move is coming. 

 

Admittedly I'm a little more jaded after witnessing what was supposed to be an even better class struggle to take hold. I haven't given up on Buxton, Sano, or Kepler by any means, but there will always be another wave of talent coming. Saying we need to wait for its arrival is just a distraction from a mediocre at best on field product. In a vacuum all three signings are justifiable. In reality this team needs more.  

 

It's certainly beaten to death, but there's an effort right now to find any reason other than stinginess to explain the current situation. We can agree that it's tiring, but we also don't need to rationalize the lack of spending as patience or a savvy long term play, not that you're advocating strongly for either. 

Unless we are ever offered a knock your socks off offer, Sano, Buxton and Kepler stay on this team until their team control has come to an end. 

Edited January 22, 2019 by sweetmusicviola16

[Otto von Ballpark]

BTW ... Morris was signed to a 1 year deal. You sure don't stick to a premise. After absolutely harping on the Twins won't sign multi year deals, you use a 1 year contract as an to support your point.

FYI, Morris was a 3 year deal, but the player could opt out after the 1st or 2nd year. (They were player options.)

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

I am sure this Front Office has a plan. Just because you are not in the loop to know what that is doesn't mean you get to trash everything they do. Everybody has a right to express an opinion about certain moves, etc.

 

I, on the other hand, choose to think about the positives in the moves that are being made. I wonder what other moves they may be contemplating, whether before spring training, or maybe at the trade deadline if some of the pieces that are already in place reach their potential. I have confidence there is a plan.

 

One observation I would like to make is that the expectations that this year's budget would be on the level of last year's should look at the long term trend of the budgets. Last year fell far outside of the overall trend, kind of an exception made due to the abundance of perceived high value players left on the market. How did that work out? Not exactly an endorsement to do it again.

 

Face it. Our team needs to be built on internal core, with opportune pickups of external value. Which is what I see happening here.

Falvey and Levine inherited an internal core that won 85 games in 2017. They didn't build on it. They thought they did, but they didn't.

 

You have confidence that they have a plan. I agree. I am also confident that they have a plan. I am curious to hear what you think their plan is though.

[old nurse]

 

And in 2017 Sano and Buxton were good..... And they still didn't push the chips in.

Any realistic scenario that you could come up with that the Twins would be

'going for it" and staying under a 150 million payroll would have still produced a finish outside of the playoffs.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

 

Any realistic scenario that you could come up with that the Twins would be

'going for it" and staying under a 150 million payroll would have still produced a finish outside of the playoffs.

How about this year? 150 million.

[Mike Sixel]

Any realistic scenario that you could come up with that the Twins would be

'going for it" and staying under a 150 million payroll would have still produced a finish outside of the playoffs.

In hindsight, but you don't make decisions with hindsight.

[Aerodeliria]

Things happen during seasons that are unexpected. The 1987 team was hardly a juggernaut on paper. The Twins grabbed a playoff spot only because they were only slightly less awful than the Royals, and Detroit was going to clean their clocks in the opening round. (I even remember Brent Musburger saying that the series would now go to four games instead of three--because the Tigers had lost the opener--assuming that the Twins would lose three straight.) We all know what happened.

 

Sure, I'd love the Twins to spend more, but with the signing of Cruz, I think the Twins become a much more fun team to watch...and who knows, one of those players may emerge and have a big year.

[kab21]

 

To me the Twins are between a rock and a hard place with their roster.  What happens if Buxton, Sano, Berrios, or even Kepler lives up to their potential.  Buxton hits for a 290 average with his usual defense, Sano hits over 40 bombs and has a 270 batting average, Berrios wins 20 games with over 200 strike outs and Kepler hits 30 bombs with at 270 batting average.  You spend 20 plus million dollars over 7 years on someone like Manny Machado and what do you do with our own if the switch flips and they produce like everyone thinks they should.  Unfortunately the Twins are not able to have the payroll of the the Yankees, Red Sox or Dodgers have and would have to get rid of a couple of them.  What happens if Gibson all of a sudden figures it out and wins 20 games.  its all possible and it could all happen next year if the stars align.  The problem is the Twins have too many young players with high ceilings, and high ceilings means big payroll in the near future and Falvey and Levine have to keep that in mind when they put this years roster together.

Your 'worst case' scenario is exactly why you add someone like Machado now. If you wait until you are sure that you have something then it is too late. And there are indications that some of those young players (Sano especially) aren't interested in signing any contracts that buy out FA years. I would absolutely take an MVP caliber player at SS/3B in his prime and worry about the chance that multiple good young players take the step towards superstardom and are willing to sign long term contracts.