Privilege and Responsibility

[PseudoSABR]

 

And SABR, your boy Bernie got shouted down by BLM in Seartle. I guess they thought he was your typical white liberal feed blacks a line.

Good for them!

I don't have to agree with everything a candidate does or a movement does to support them generally.  In fact, if I was in sync with every thing anyone or any organization did I'd be suspect, showing signs of cult-like behavior rather than independent thinking.  

[ewen21]

 

I don't have to agree with everything a candidate does or a movement does to support them generally.  In fact, if I was in sync with every thing anyone or any organization did I'd be suspect, showing signs of cult-like behavior rather than independent thinking.  

Well, no you are just talking about something else to misdirect from what actually went down.  The post was more about the way Black Lives Matter conduct themselves.  They infiltrated and obstructed a forum for democratic candidates to speak about their platform.  They wanted to shout down the discourse and for what reason?

 

I guess they can do that....because they are disadvantaged minorities?

I don't want anyone doing that.  White, black, brown, yellow.

[ewen21]

 

No, I'm not endorsing your point, I'm showing the hypocrisy of "systemic racism doesn't exist" and "Democrats instituted systemic racism in the 90s" coming from the mouth of the same person within a 24 hour period.

 

WHEN did I say the underlined?  Never.

 

As far as my statement on systemic racism, I don't think it exists.  I provided the Clinton example to show another example of how democrats have screwed blacks.  We can go back to the "Great Society" where Lyndon Johnson set back blacks with social programs that have done nothing but create a culture of entitlement.  

 

As far as facts go, we can discuss some data provided by the FBI on crime by race.  Not sure anyone here is game for that, although it does serve to explain a large part of the reason why blacks are incarcerated at such a high rate.  These are the statistics Kyle Korver should present to his teammates if he is going to truly be even about race.

 

I don't like his "article" 

To me it was self-serving and it was the easiest thing he could have done.  He can take all the bows he wants, but it doesn't seem as if he wants to have a discussion.  He wants his words to be followed AND he wants to play race cop.  

 

 

[ewen21]

There needs to be a two-sided discussion on race.  This Korver thing is completely one-sided and he should be prepared to handle rebuttals.   But to put him aside there needs to be a conversation about the notion was police will killing blacks for no reason in big numbers.  The fact is over ten times as many blacks were killed by other blacks as compared to those killed by police. 

 

Blaming white people is not going to solve that.  

 

And that's about all for now.

[PseudoSABR]

 

There needs to be a two-sided discussion on race.  This Korver thing is completely one-sided and he should be prepared to handle rebuttals.   But to put him aside there needs to be a conversation about the notion was police will killing blacks for no reason in big numbers.  The fact is over ten times as many blacks were killed by other blacks as compared to those killed by police. 

 

Blaming white people is not going to solve that.  

 

And that's about all for now.

And both sides I guess need to be white guys?  And Korver specifically said it's not about blame, but it is about the group who has the power to change that dynamic, which is largely white people.

[PseudoSABR]

 

 

Well, no you are just talking about something else to misdirect from what actually went down.  The post was more about the way Black Lives Matter conduct themselves.  They infiltrated and obstructed a forum for democratic candidates to speak about their platform.  They wanted to shout down the discourse and for what reason?

 

I guess they can do that....because they are disadvantaged minorities?

I don't want anyone doing that.  White, black, brown, yellow.

Protests should make people uncomfortable, it's how protests get attention; even if I don't always agree with their methods.  I don't care that they do it to Bernie or Trump or whomever, but I respect their right to protest.

[ewen21]

So we are the only ones who can empower them and prevent the dropout rate for being so high, black on black murder being so high, illegitimatacy being so high, etc???

 

White people can solve their problems. That notion to me is pretty haughty. White people are just so awesome we can do this?

 

Treat everyone the same. Period.

[TheLeviathan]

 

So we are the only ones who can empower them and prevent the dropout rate for being so high, black on black murder being so high, illegitimatacy being so high, etc???

 

You are still stuck on the symptoms.  Had everyone always been treated the same, or near the same, the situation may be different.

 

Instead several generations of black men and women were enslaved and then kept repressed.  You simply can't recover from that immediately and the problems you cite are aftershocks of that wrong.  We should all be on board helping to right that wrong.

[ewen21]

depends on what you are protesting and how you do it. Those black girls got up in Bernie's junk and pretty much stole the mic.

 

That was awesome, right?

[PseudoSABR]

 

depends on what you are protesting and how you do it. Those black girls got up in Bernie's junk and pretty much stole the mic.

That was awesome, right?

That's one anecdote.  They sound like they were rude, but using that as some kind of evidence that there's something wrong with Black Lives Matters is totally disingenuous.  

[ewen21]

 

You are still stuck on the symptoms.  Had everyone always been treated the same, or near the same, the situation may be different.

 

Instead several generations of black men and women were enslaved and then kept repressed.  You simply can't recover from that immediately and the problems you cite are aftershocks of that wrong.  We should all be on board helping to right that wrong.

This is virtue signaling.  While I cannot disagree with you that blacks were enslaved I have to point out that was over 150 years ago. It is time to move forward because there isn't a damn thing that can be done about the past.

 

To keep referring to this is to say there never will be a solution.  You are essentially saying that blacks should forever resent whites and use slavery as leverage.  I wasn't in on that slavery thing.  Neither were any of my ancestors.  I don't own slavery and I don't think you do either.

 

It is incredible to me that blacks just a few generations ago exemplified some of the best traits a human could have....strength, resiliency.....now just two or three generations later we have more incarceration, more illegitimacy, more violent crimes, more a lot of bad things.  

Why is it that before the civil rights movement things weren't this bad?  Why did things get a whole lot worse over the last 40 years?

 

It's my fault.  It's your fault.

Come on, man.

[Mr. Brooks]

This is virtue signaling. While I cannot disagree with you that blacks were enslaved I have to point out that was over 150 years ago. It is time to move forward because there isn't a damn thing that can be done about the past.

 

To keep referring to this is to say there never will be a solution. You are essentially saying that blacks should forever resent whites and use slavery as leverage. I wasn't in on that slavery thing. Neither were any of my ancestors. I don't own slavery and I don't think you do either.

 

It is incredible to me that blacks just a few generations ago exemplified some of the best traits a human could have....strength, resiliency.....now just two or three generations later we have more incarceration, more illegitimacy, more violent crimes, more a lot of bad things.

Why is it that before the civil rights movement things weren't this bad? Why did things get a whole lot worse over the last 40 years?

 

It's my fault. It's your fault.

Come on, man.

Do you honestly think the abolition of slavery was a magic wand that ended oppression overnight?

Have you really never heard of Jim Crow laws, redlining, sunset towns, segregation, etc.?

[ewen21]

 

That's one anecdote.  They sound like they were rude, but using that as some kind of evidence that there's something wrong with Black Lives Matters is totally disingenuous.  

Is this the only BLM "anecdote"???

 

You cannot think of a single other one where misconduct dominated the scene?

OK.

 

Good.  I must be nuts.

 

[PseudoSABR]

 

Is this the only BLM "anecdote"???

 

You cannot think of a single other one where misconduct dominated the scene?

OK.

 

Good.  I must be nuts.

Stop being such a snowflake dude.  Black people getting killed by cops at a rate manifold over white people should create a movement.  That you don't like how they protest doesn't undercut their larger point.

 

And you really care about how a certain segment choices to carry out its message, compare BLM to I dunno, white supremacists, shooting up synagogues and temples, driving cars through crowds, etc. etc.  (Oh but there's nothing going on in the larger culture that creates fertile ground for these people).

 

You're not crazy, you're just deeply unwilling to even entertain systemic racism, and will look to knock down the notion for any, trivial reason.  

[ewen21]

 

Stop being such a snowflake dude.  Black people getting killed by cops at a rate manifold over white people should create a movement.  That you don't like how they protest doesn't undercut their larger point.

 

And you really care about how a certain segment choices to carry out its message, compare BLM to I dunno, white supremacists, shooting up synagogues and temples, driving cars through crowds, etc. etc.  (Oh but there's nothing going on in the larger culture that creates fertile ground for these people).

 

You're not crazy, you're just deeply unwilling to even entertain systemic racism, and will look to knock down the notion for any, trivial reason.  

Black folks accounted for 52% of the murders in this country and they make up 12.5% of our population.

 

What do you make of it?

 

Absent all excuses. Is it safe to say they have more violent tendencies regardless of whatever cause??

[PseudoSABR]

 

Black folks accounted for 52% of the murders in this country and they make up 12.5% of our population.

 

What do you make of it?

 

Absent all excuses. Is it safe to say they have more violent tendencies regardless of whatever cause??

What do you make of it?  That they deserve to die? That they have murder in your blood?

 

No, it is absolutely racist to say they have violent tendencies, especially if you are unwilling to probe the cause.  Jesus F-ing Christ.

[ewen21]

 

Stop being such a snowflake dude.  Black people getting killed by cops at a rate manifold over white people should create a movement.  That you don't like how they protest doesn't undercut their larger point.

 

 

Ummm.  Do you know the rate blacks kill white as compared to the other way around?

 

Have you actually seen the statistics??

 

[Badsmerf]

You're using old numbers first of all... Secondly, part of the vicious circle of poverty is crime, including violent murders. In fact, the more affluent a person is, regardless of race, the less likely they are to commit violent crimes. That is a fact. Also, black people live in a higher proportion of poverty than white people. Fact. Black people are accused and convicted of a higher proportion of crime... Also fact.

 

Are you seriously arguing race relations were better before the civil rights movement than they are now? Wow dude. You should actually try to understand black history in our country. I don't think it affects you, so you don't care.

[ewen21]

 

What do you make of it?  That they deserve to die? That they have murder in your blood?

 

No, it is absolutely racist to say they have violent tendencies, especially if you are unwilling to probe the cause.  Jesus F-ing Christ.

Yet you can state rather assuredly there is some sort of "systemic racism" based off other statistics.

 

Amazing how that works.

 

You really need to tone that junk down because it is too easy on the other end to completely erase it

[ewen21]

 

You're using old numbers first of all... Secondly, part of the vicious circle of poverty is crime, including violent murders. In fact, the more affluent a person is, regardless of race, the less likely they are to commit violent crimes. That is a fact. Also, black people live in a higher proportion of poverty than white people. Fact. Black people are accused and convicted of a higher proportion of crime... Also fact.

Are you seriously arguing race relations were better before the civil rights movement than they are now? Wow dude. You should actually try to understand black history in our country. I don't think it affects you, so you don't care.

 

It's also a fact that white people are about 10 times more likely to be a victim of aggravated assault at the hands of a black person as compared to the other way around.  If the DOJ and the FBI accumulated those stats are they racist?  Or am I racist for citing them?

 

Opine about the root causes all you want.  It doesn't change what I just said

[ewen21]

Look.  I did not create the numbers.  They exist and they are real.

 

If you guys what to blame whties for the condition of African Americans in this country then go on with it.  I just don't understand why that you do it.  They have the same free will Jews, Asians, Arabs and (ironically) undocumented arrivals have.

 

[PseudoSABR]

 

Yet you can state rather assuredly there is some sort of "systemic racism" based off other statistics.

 

Amazing how that works.

 

You really need to tone that junk down because it is too easy on the other end to completely erase it

I use my reason, my sense of history, my own empathy to see systemic racism.  The statistics you cite also support systemic racism.  People do not seek to be criminals, become incarcerated, to be murders.  That you think so is appalling.  I'm done talking to you.  

[Badsmerf]

It's also a fact that white people are about 10 times more likely to be a victim of aggravated assault at the hands of a black person as compared to the other way around. If the DOJ and the FBI accumulated those stats are they racist? Or am I racist for citing them?

 

Opine about the root causes all you want. It doesn't change what I just said

You absolutely ignored my entire post to run away from the things you said, like you've done during this whole discussion. If you think I have sympathy for black or Asian or Mexicans that commit violent crimes, you're mistaken. All races are capable of hate crimes. However, this discussion is about systemic racism of blacks....

 

I don't think you have an open mind about this topic at all.

[Badsmerf]

It is a whole lot easier to blame a group for their problems when they're considered tainted. This is how all the nasty genocides in our history have been undertaken. That is why many of us rise up when this type of narrative arises. Blacks. Mexicans. Arabs. It used to be Japanese, Irish, Jews.... and still blacks.

 

This isn't new, just new groups getting pointed at that aren't Caucasian. Martin Luther King Jr was assassinated not that long ago... and let's remember, he was fighting FOR civil rights. Meaning, we were a long way from black lives matter at that point. Now, we have a group that just wants the police to stop killing unarmed black men... and it is some kind of controversy. Damn.

[TheLeviathan]

 

This is virtue signaling.  While I cannot disagree with you that blacks were enslaved I have to point out that was over 150 years ago. It is time to move forward because there isn't a damn thing that can be done about the past.

 

To keep referring to this is to say there never will be a solution.  You are essentially saying that blacks should forever resent whites and use slavery as leverage.  I wasn't in on that slavery thing.  Neither were any of my ancestors.  I don't own slavery and I don't think you do either.

 

 

I'll say it.  You're like talking to a fruit fly.  You can't remember what you said, or anyone else said, if it's more than two posts ago.  It makes your positions constantly shifting and incoherent.  It might be helpful for you to slow down and make sure what you're saying fits both with what was said by you and by others.  You get huffy mostly because you can't keep up.  (Even with yourself)

 

Slavery ended 150 years ago but oppression continued another 100 years.  Black men and women are basically one or two generations into being actual citizens of this country.  And unlike first generation immigrants, black men and women have to deal with an entire social structure that was built against them.  As Brooks said - simply ending slavery, or allowing them to vote (or F*cking eat) where they choose is not some magic wand.  The lingering effects of that abuse take time to heal and rectify.  (As it does with any abuse or trauma)

 

And the thing is...we never really tried.  Twice now we did the bare minimum ("let" them not be slaves and then "let" them vote and be humans) and never once has there been a concerted effort to right the wrongs.  It's not virtue signaling to recognize that there are good people still paying for the mistakes of this country's past.  We should try to right them.  That's called being a decent human being.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

So we are the only ones who can empower them and prevent the dropout rate for being so high, black on black murder being so high, illegitimatacy being so high, etc???

White people can solve their problems. That notion to me is pretty haughty. White people are just so awesome we can do this?

Almost nobody gave a **** about MLK until he walked across a bridge locked in arms with a bunch of white people and America saw them gassed and beaten.

So, yeah, maybe white people can play a role in all of this. We can't be swords, but we can be shields.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Yet you can state rather assuredly there is some sort of "systemic racism" based off other statistics.

 

Amazing how that works.

 

You really need to tone that junk down because it is too easy on the other end to completely erase it

If you eschew all political, racial, and personal judgment, you have to boil it down to this:

 

1. Black people are inferior to white people

 

2. There is something in our societal structure that promotes one race over the other

 

There literally is no third option.

 

Think about it for a moment, I beg of you to do so. If you discard all the nonsense about politics, race, culture, and government, you're left with human beings. Why are some suffering and others are not? Why is it so clearly cut along racial lines?

[KirbyDome89]

 

Yet, I still had privilege because I was a white male, grew up with two parents who had sense of work ethic which they could pass on, and had parents savvy enough to rent homes in good school districts. (And because I worked my ass off, I'm uber privileged now with a several degrees, including law, still haven't lost the empathy though).  

I'm happy to claim great parents as well, but I don't think skin color really factors into parenting skills, good sense, work ethic, ect. I'm not sure if that was the connection being made or it was simply anecdotal support for previous posts.  

 

I've never been a big fan of the term white privilege. That's often conflated with an inability to recognize that there are times where looking like a majority of the country has its benefits, and that is unfortunate. I think it was Levi earlier who made the comment that the term is often poorly explained which causes confusion/backlash. I think that's fair, but I would go a little further and say the ever shifting nature of what defines privilege and the uneven application of the label at an individual level is problematic. 

 

You and I might agree (I'm assuming here)  that there are aspects of our lives that are easier because of the way we look. I have zero issue with you calling that privilege. In reality though, that isn't how the term is used. As soon as the qualifier "white," is tacked on, the implication is that all white people are playing the game on easy mode while all minorities have the difficulty level cranked up. That's making incredibly sweeping generalizations, and when it's applied at an individual level, as it all too often is, it's used to degrade or invalidate.

[ewen21]

 

 Why are some suffering and others are not? Why is it so clearly cut along racial lines?

There is no single answer for this and yet the Korver piece focused only on "white privilege" and that is narrowminded at best.

 

Blacks need to have a conversation with themselves.  A real conversation as to how and why they can reduce black crime, specifically violent crime.  Blacks in the "athletic community" pressed the issue of police violence against blacks and pretty much rammed it down our throats during the 2017 football season.  I did not see anything about black on black crime, however, and in reality, blacks were killed by other blacks in staggering numbers as compared to how many were killed by police.

 

We also witnessed a key member of this social justice movement (Michael Bennett) completely fabricate a story about he was arrested for just being black.  It was a total sham. I will even say the Russel Westbrook thing that Korver talks about was overblown because Westbrook saw it as being racial.  When one guy tells another to get on his knees that means he blows people and it is an attack on his masculinity.  These kinds of things don't help.  Neither does the way these social justice warriors amplify their struggles with police without ever acknowledging that blacks make up just over 12% of the population and have committed over 50% of the murders for years and years.

 

If we are truly going to have a productive discussion about race these ugly facts need to be addressed.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I'm happy to claim great parents as well, but I don't think skin color really factors into parenting skills, good sense, work ethic, ect. I'm not sure if that was the connection being made or it was simply anecdotal support for previous posts.  

 

I've never been a big fan of the term white privilege. That's often conflated with an inability to recognize that there are times where looking like a majority of the country has its benefits, and that is unfortunate. I think it was Levi earlier who made the comment that the term is often poorly explained which causes confusion/backlash. I think that's fair, but I would go a little further and say the ever shifting nature of what defines privilege and the uneven application of the label at an individual level is problematic. 

 

You and I might agree (I'm assuming here)  that there are aspects of our lives that are easier because of the way we look. I have zero issue with you calling that privilege. In reality though, that isn't how the term is used. As soon as the qualifier "white," is tacked on, the implication is that all white people are playing the game on easy mode while all minorities have the difficulty level cranked up. That's making incredibly sweeping generalizations, and when it's applied at an individual level, as it all too often is, it's used to degrade or invalidate.

Well, I'd distinguish that just because you have a privilege doesn't mean it necessarily gets you anywhere.  There are plenty of white people who have tougher lives than black people, and often that's a matter of wealth.  Peggy McIntosh wrote an essay on White Privilege in the 1980s that's somewhat dated but lists dozens of small little privileges we don't necessarily think about.  And I agree with Korver's point that being able to opt-in and opt-out of whether to engage in the conversation about race is a privilege itself.  Simply put, a white person will never be mistaken for a black person, so in that sense there something universal here.

 

I'd also say although race on its own certainly doesn't impact parenting skills or work ethic, poverty does.  And parents who may lack work ethic among other valuable skills are less likely to pass those skills on.  And we can quickly see how that problem becomes inter-generational. And it is the connection between race and poverty that makes racism a systemic problem.