Privilege and Responsibility

[ewen21]

 

When hicks in Oregon were aiming guns at officers and members of the military....did he decry them?

 

Oh wait...he pardoned them.  

 

One singular incident is not a trend.  A trend is a trend.  Trump is vocal when it comes to disparaging minorities and apologizing for whites that do roughly the same thing.  As is most of the right in this country.

 

The left is full of hypocrisy too, but not on this particular issue.

How is his pardoning these people "racist"?

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

How is his pardoning these people "racist"?

 

When you'll pardon white treasonists but attack black athletes as unpatriotic......seems like an odd difference.  What would explain such ridiculous hypocrisy other than racism?

[ewen21]

 

When you'll pardon white treasonists but attack black athletes as unpatriotic......seems like an odd difference.  What would explain such ridiculous hypocrisy other than racism?

TREASON?  Was that what these guys were convicted of?

[TheLeviathan]

 

TREASON?  Was that what these guys were convicted of?

 

If you can't call what they did treason, then I don't know what planet you're living on.

[ewen21]

If you can't call what they did treason, then I don't know what planet you're living on.

You are confused

[ewen21]

Honestly. You ought to look up the definition of treason and then refresh yourself on what went down. As is the case with several of our other interactions you don't have your facts straight, yet you speak broadly and boldly.

 

Trump pardoned the Hammonds and they were sentenced for arson. They had nothing to do with the subsequent protest in the wildlife refuge that followed their sentencing. That is what you are haphazardly referencing. Don't make me post articles.

 

For God's sake could you just once pause and read a couple of sources to be sure before you pipe in with TREASON. Who the heck are you talking about? You aren't talking about the guys who Trump pardoned and if you are talking about the Hammonds freakin explain how what they did was treasonous. I think you are talking about the activists.

 

PLEASE, go back check and save yourself the trouble of me having to post articles. If we are going to be honest and accurate you are going to need to do some research before you shoot from the hip

[TheLeviathan]

 

Honestly. You ought to look up the definition of treason and then refresh yourself on what went down. As is the case with several of our other interactions you don't have your facts straight, yet you speak broadly and boldly.

Trump pardoned the Hammonds and they were sentenced for arson. They had nothing to do with the subsequent protest in the wildlife refuge that followed their sentencing. That is what you are haphazardly referencing. Don't make me post articles.

For God's sake could you just once pause and read a couple of sources to be sure before you pipe in with TREASON. Who the heck are you talking about? You aren't talking about the guys who Trump pardoned and if you are talking about the Hammonds freakin explain how what they did was treasonous. I think you are talking about the activists.

PLEASE, go back check and save yourself the trouble of me having to post articles. If we are going to be honest and accurate you are going to need to do some research before you shoot from the hip

 

You mean the people that took government property by force at the end of a gun?  The people that have felt compelled to act as their own sovereign agents against the government?  Whether the Hammonds were personally responsible for all of that or not is irrelevant.  I guarantee you if a group of black folks thought their religion allowed them to take federal property at gunpoint...Trump ain't pardoning ANYONE in that circle of involvement.

 

And one more thing - if that doesn't rise to treason by a legal definition I can say this with a fact: it's a HELLUVA lot less patriotic than taking a knee during a damn song.  They openly mock and refuse to pay their country based on the laws of the country.  These men, and the groups they affiliate with,  literally attacked the government and Trump and his lackeys say they are being treated "too harshly" and worthy of a pardon and sympathy, but you put one knee down during a football game and people like you light their hair on fire.

 

If that's not race....by all means, explain the difference.  How are these blatant criminals being praised and defended by the party that espouses the "Rule of law".  Yet the dudes who are violating no law whatsoever are the horrible, unpatriotic ones.

 

Explain it.  No sidetracks.  None of your usual nonsense.  Explain it.

[PseudoSABR]

 

If I suggested "people of color should support him" it would be only through manner in which you interpreted my words. When I mentioned the notable decrease in unemployment and incarceration of blacks I mentioned it to contrast what was said about blacks being "marginalized"
What the heck is important?

The idea that calling out a group of athletes protesting during the Anthem is racist really troubles me. If they were white he'd have probably said the same damn thing. If you think he wouldn't have then you haven't been paying attention. I'm so sick and tired of the "THAT'S RACIST!" garbage that so liberally flies around these days. All it does is waste energy when you start looking for racism in everything. Russell Westbrook and that whole thing was completely ridiculous. The fan was an idiot but what Westbrook cited as being racist was truly pathetic. Some people are just dying to scream RACISM!! and it needs to be walked back in a big way.

And who conscripted people like LeBron, Beyoncé, Sharpton, Spike Lee and other SJW athletes, entertainers and public figures to be spokespeople for the black race? Moreover, when did white liberals become the arbiters of what blacks should and shouldn't feel?

Sorry you're tired of it.  But white athletes don't face the issues that Westbrook and others do.  (Duh!)

 

Sorry you can't understand it's deeply offensive to when Trump calls out athletes from protesting disproportionate police misconduct against black people.  And it's highly problematic that you ignore what they were protesting (you don't mention it, as if they were protesting their pay rate or something). 

 

Sorry that you think employment should be enough for them, and they should be happy with having a job and not being incarcerated.  I think you have a lot of trouble understanding the importance of dignity because, well, you have privilege and never had to worry about that lack of dignity in your life, because of something you can't control like race.  

 

This is why I don't really want to respond to your posts, because I find your perspective absolutely deplorable, and a contributing factor to systemic racism. If you don't like the shouts of "racism," change your attitude, bro.  It's only people like you that can change the narrative. 

[ewen21]

You mean the people that took government property by force at the end of a gun? The people that have felt compelled to act as their own sovereign agents against the government? Whether the Hammonds were personally responsible for all of that or not is irrelevant.

 

NO, I don't mean people "who took the government by force at the end of a gun". I clarified EXACTLY where your error was in my last post. You confused because you don't read. AGAIN.....You are talking about the Bundy's who pressed the issue after the Hammonds told them they did not want their support.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/oregon-ranchers-reject-cliven-bundy-family-occupation/

Wrong again, Leviathan

 

Stop acting like you meant to say what you said. You made a mistake and as usual you simply cannot cop to it.

[ewen21]

 

Sorry you're tired of it.  But white athletes don't face the issues that Westbrook and others do.  (Duh!)

 

 

 

The fan told him to: "....get on his knees like he's always been"

Westbrook called the insult he reacted to "racist"

 

That is an insult, but it is an attack on his manhood.  They guy was telling him to go blow someone.

[ewen21]

 

 

 

Sorry you can't understand it's deeply offensive to when Trump calls out athletes from protesting disproportionate police misconduct against black people.  And it's highly problematic that you ignore what they were protesting (you don't mention it, as if they were protesting their pay rate or something). 

 

I don't ignore it.  I just don't buy the whole package of goods these woke dudes tried to sell everyone.  I already talked about this a month ago on the page before and no one could respond to it:

Colin Kaepernick wanted everyone to listen about the issue of race and his entire focus was on police brutality. He had the floor to expand on it (and still does) but he said his thing and has gone mute. Be that as it may, while the protest was getting nonstop national attention from the media, FBI data quietly revealed the racial breakdown of homicide offenders in 2016 to be 6,095 blacks for and 5,004 whites (https://ucr.fbi.gov/...ata-table-2.xls) despite the fact that blacks comprise about 12% of the population. This got ZERO play from the mainstream media and the woke sports outlets that discussed the issue nonstop didn't dare touch it. Yet Kaepernick's "bodies in the streets" statement got tons of play. If he wanted to, Kaepernick or other outspoken NFL players could familiarized himself with the numbers the FBI presented and acknowledged the problem goes beyond just the police. It never happened because they don't listen.

Kaepernick could have gone on a run with San Francisco police to meet them half way and calm things down (and perhaps work in cooperation with them), but he refused.  He wouldn't listen.
in spite of what anyone might say, the disproportionate homicide figures supplied by FBI data show police must apprehend more black offenders committing homicide/manslaughter than any other race. This is a statement of fact and it is a piece to the puzzle in the discussion that Kaepernick started..It is information that can contribute to the dialogue, but no...we can't go there. They just won't hear it. The data somehow implies racism.
And yet Kaepernick was able start an aggressive, accusatory campaign directed toward the police because he wanted to "bring attention to the issue of police brutality" .He became a symbol for "wokeness" with his anti-police rhetoric. He sure woke me up on the issue.
In all my research, another thing never discussed, is that according to an article published by the NY Post police are 18.5 times more likely to be murdered by a black assailant.  This statistic is buried in the "you can never see this file".(https://nypost.com/2...lack-homicides/)
I will do more research into Heather MacDonald (the person who brought this information forward)
But I am curious.  Where is any further research/analysis on that figure? I would like to see more research on who kills cops. If those numbers are even halfway representative of reality then why shouldn't it get as much attention in the national media as what Kaerpernck got??
I would welcome anyone to find any further information on that data.

 

It didn't help that another a woke dude, Michael Bennett LIED about his interaction with the police in the midst of all this.  I am far from ignoring woke athletes and their narrative.  

 

When you guys talk about "white privilege" I personally have no idea what you are talking about.  My only responsibility is to treat others how I want to be treated and to respect the truth.  This woke movement in sports has played fast and loose with the truth.  There is their truth and THE TRUTH and their truth only occasionally intersects with THE TRUTH

 

[ashbury]

 

I'm sure there's a good explanation behind this photo at a school in Palmdale CA. There always is.

[LaBombo]

 

 

I'm sure there's a good explanation behind this photo at a school in Palmdale CA. There always is.

 

Clearly they're all violent white supremacists, so there couldn't possibly be one.

 

But just to be sure, let's immediately destroy all their lives and those of their families, and also take the opportunity to smear any person in America with any political views we disagree with, and let's get it done before any actual facts are made public that might interfere with our righteous narrative.

 

Regards,

 

Jussie

 

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Stop acting like you meant to say what you said. You made a mistake and as usual you simply cannot cop to it.

 

I made no mistake.  I said this and meant this all along:

 

I guarantee you if a group of black folks thought their religion allowed them to take federal property at gunpoint...Trump ain't pardoning ANYONE in that circle of involvement.  (Blessings or not)

 

Yet these guys get glorified on Hannity and by Trump.  Whether they blessed the milita or not, they are criminals (arsonists) who then were associated with a blatant act of defiance of the government.  Yet they are celebrated as patriots!!!

 

Athletes kneeling (not a crime) is somehow more worthy of twitter vitriol than dudes who set fire to federal lands and get supported by anti-American government militia.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Clearly they're all violent white supremacists, so there couldn't possibly be one.

 

But just to be sure, let's immediately destroy all their lives and those of their families, and also take the opportunity to smear any person in America with any political views we disagree with, and let's get it done before any actual facts are made public that might interfere with our righteous narrative.

 

Regards,

 

Jussie

There's a huge gulf between pointing out the pejorative and symbolic heft of making a noose and destroying someone's life.  Asbury did not do the latter, so I think you're overreacting just a touch.  

[PseudoSABR]

 

 

The fan told him to: "....get on his knees like he's always been"

Westbrook called the insult he reacted to "racist"

 

That is an insult, but it is an attack on his manhood.  They guy was telling him to go blow someone.

How do you know that the fan's intent? You don't.  Kneeling does have the connotation in protesting during the anthem, which is directly relevant to a black athlete. 

[LaBombo]

 

There's a huge gulf between pointing out the pejorative and symbolic heft of making a noose and destroying someone's life.  Asbury did not do the latter, so I think you're overreacting just a touch.  

 

In the absence of shred of context, you were furious at a child for wearing a hat, because internet.

 

So I hope you'll permit me to take with a grain of salt your admonishment that I'm "overreacting" by pointing out the undeniable existence of doxxing, and also the left's terrifying obsession with weaponizing media to destroy those it finds guilty in internet kangaroo court, as well as its spectacularly bad recent track record of rushing to judge.

 

If the teachers were in fact engaged in a spontaneous, miniature Klan rally centered around a noose found at their school, then I hope they're fired immediately.

 

In the absence of proof of that absurd notion, it's breathtakingly dishonest to deny that publicly portraying them as openly racist based purely on a photo is very likely damaging to their lives and those of their families'. 

[TheLeviathan]

Out of curiosity, has there been any reporting about the context of that photo?  It's totally appropriate to say that photo was foolish and in bad taste, especially from an educator, but is there more information on the context?

 

Some searching hasn't yielded anything for me.

[LaBombo]

 

Out of curiosity, has there been any reporting about the context of that photo?  It's totally appropriate to say that photo was foolish and in bad taste, especially from an educator, but is there more information on the context?

 

Some searching hasn't yielded anything for me.

 

 Agree completely. It's very difficult for me to imagine a context that makes me think 'Oh, ok, that explains it! They're totally blameless!'.

 

And yet they deserve the benefit of the doubt regardless, but the photo and the media lynch mob virtually assure us they will not.

[PseudoSABR]

 

In the absence of shred of context, you were furious at a child for wearing a hat, because internet.

 

So I hope you'll permit me to take with a grain of salt your admonishment that I'm "overreacting" by pointing out the undeniable existence of doxxing, and also the left's terrifying obsession with weaponizing media to destroy those it finds guilty in internet kangaroo court, as well as its spectacularly bad recent track record of rushing to judge.

 

If the teachers were in fact engaged in a spontaneous, miniature Klan rally centered around a noose found at their school, then I hope they're fired immediately.

 

In the absence of proof of that absurd notion, it's breathtakingly dishonest to deny that publicly portraying them as openly racist based purely on a photo is very likely damaging to their lives and those of their families'. 

It doesn't have to be openly racist to be a problem.  Can you concede that? This is the strawman that the conservative middle continually beats down when they whine about being called racist, when in fact no one actually called them that.  Of course the implication is there, but not by the accusations, but by parading around in the symbols of racism whether they be confederate flags or nooses or certain hats. 

 

Glad we're relitigating the students in MAGA hats, which is also is kind of meant to trigger people.  And though you characterize my response as outrage, I think I only went as far as saying he was a douche/asshat.  But carry on.  Those mean ole liberals are really gonna get you.

[PseudoSABR]

 

 Agree completely. It's very difficult for me to imagine a context that makes me think 'Oh, ok, that explains it! They're totally blameless!'.

 

And yet they deserve the benefit of the doubt regardless, but the photo and the media lynch mob virtually assure us they will not.

That's all ashbury said, is that he doubted they were blameless.  Lynch mob? Where is that? Point to it. I think you're being completely assumptuous in the same way you're accusing others. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

It doesn't have to be openly racist to be a problem.  Can you concede that? 

 

Of course and since I think LaBombo and I have pretty similar takes on this maybe I can answer.

 

Getting in a car accident because you texted on your phone is a problem.  So is getting in a car accident because you had a blood alcohol level of .30 while you drove a monster truck the wrong direction on a one way in a school zone.

 

Both are "problems" - I'd like to suggest we may deal with those two problems in different ways.  One is a common problem (like, say, white privilege) that can go unnoticed.  They other is (admittedly hyperbolic) so egregious it's unquestionably wrong. 

 

If twitter and the left are any indication (in general), that is not a shared belief.  It's kind of my beef in general with the total abandonment of nuance by the poles.  One pole does it on radio and Fox News, the other blasts it over social media.  

 

So on that photo my alarm bells are off that it's a problem.  That's as far as I can go without knowing more about the nature of the problem.  I hope others show similar restraint.  I like to think we can at least hold that line to our fellow person, if even for a few days.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Of course and since I think LaBombo and I have pretty similar takes on this maybe I can answer.

 

Getting in a car accident because you texted on your phone is a problem.  So is getting in a car accident because you had a blood alcohol level of .30 while you drove a monster truck the wrong direction on a one way in a school zone.

 

Both are "problems" - I'd like to suggest we may deal with those two problems in different ways.  One is a common problem (like, say, white privilege) that can go unnoticed.  They other is (admittedly hyperbolic) so egregious it's unquestionably wrong. 

 

If twitter and the left are any indication (in general), that is not a shared belief.  It's kind of my beef in general with the total abandonment of nuance by the poles.  One pole does it on radio and Fox News, the other blasts it over social media.  

 

So on that photo my alarm bells are off that it's a problem.  That's as far as I can go without knowing more about the nature of the problem.  I hope others show similar restraint.  I like to think we can at least hold that line to our fellow person, if even for a few days.

That's all fair.  But I think LaBombo's post was a bit of knee jerk.  The only reaction I've seen to this photo is ashbury's, which seems to imply there's no excuse for this kind of behavior, and I tend to agree.  And honestly, no one needs to point out the problem of driving a monster truck with .30 BAC, that problem is self evidence.  What needs to be pointed out is the subtle forms of problematic behavior, say, like this. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

That's all fair.  But I think LaBombo's post was a bit of knee jerk.  The only reaction I've seen to this photo is ashbury's, which seems to imply there's no excuse for this kind of behavior, and I tend to agree.  And honestly, no one needs to point out the problem of driving a monster truck with .30 BAC, that problem is self evidence.  What needs to be pointed out is the subtle forms of problematic behavior, say, like this. 

 

I agreed with you that it needs to be pointed out.  It's not like my analogy said "Ignore the texting while driving" person.  My analogy was about our response.

 

What "pointing it out" entails is sorta the point at which we could diverge.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I agreed with you that it needs to be pointed out.  It's not like my analogy said "Ignore the texting while driving" person.  My analogy was about our response.

 

What "pointing it out" entails is sorta the point at which we could diverge.

But where was the problem in the instant case? The criticism seems like rehashing old complaints about liberal responses. 

[ewen21]

When you'll pardon white treasonists

For the last time, you are WRONG.

 

No amount hyperbole or cries of RACISM! can mask the fact that the above statement is factually incorrect

 

When you have to do stuff like this it indicates that you have no confidence in the truth being enough to buttress your argument

[TheLeviathan]

 

But where was the problem in the instant case? The criticism seems like rehashing old complaints about liberal responses. 

 

Here in this thread?  No.  Would we find that same restraint on social media you think?

[TheLeviathan]

 

For the last time, you are WRONG.

No amount hyperbole or cries of RACISM! can mask the fact that the above statement is factually incorrect

When you have to do stuff like this it indicates that you have no confidence in the truth being enough to buttress your argument

 

I guarantee you if a group of black folks thought their religion allowed them to take federal property at gunpoint...Trump ain't pardoning ANYONE in that circle of involvement.(Blessings or not)

[ashbury]

The only reaction I've seen to this photo is ashbury's, which seems to imply there's no excuse for this kind of behavior

Instead of saying "There always is," maybe I could have been more whimsical, and opened it up to the group to suggest what the explanation will be, assuming one eventually comes out. Plenty of scope for lighthearted fun, guessing how the noose arrived on campus, how it was found, why the teachers found it amusing, why one of them thought the photo worth sharing, why it was shared with apparently an understanding not to distribute it widely.

 

I'm not saying there's "no excuse", because the story is still fresh and those in the know aren't yet talking.

 

But I'm sorry, I can't think of any answers to the above slate of questions that will be benign. So my closing words were instead on the arch side. Sorry to ruffle feathers.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Here in this thread?  No.  Would we find that same restraint on social media you think?

Social media cannot be the boogie man that justifies preemptive snowflake cries of "lynch mob" every time someone points out there is problem with this kind of behavior, a problem we all acknowledge is a problem. (The alternative is to stay silent about such problems in the public forum. And that is an awful, shameful alternative.) It was shared on this forum and not social media, and no one has gone ape-poopy about it.  So in the end we're really just putting the lefties on twitter on trial again: great.