Privilege and Responsibility

[Doomtints]

Many people assume that if a latinx doesn't speak English, he or she is an immigrant, when the truth is many of them have been here for generations. Texas has Spanish speaking communities dating to the 1800s, and we have to listen to pundits on TV tell us these US citizens (who have been here longer than the pundits have, in many cases) are somehow less than human. New York, Chicago, and probably every major city also has these pockets of Spanish speaking communities that are older than all of us.

 

We really just gotta stop the xenophobia. None of us know the stories of the people we see and try to put into a box.

 

The vast majority of "undocumented immigrants" in the US are people who were here legally but overstayed their visas. A wall won't help this, nor will a militant ICE organization. ICE was born out of post 9/11 paranoia and the sooner we get rid of it the better.

 

I have never heard a valid argument against immigration or a valid argument against immigrants. Our social and economic problems are caused by whites, full stop.

[Mr. Brooks]

Many people assume that if a latinx doesn't speak English, he or she is an immigrant, when the truth is many of them have been here for generations. Texas has Spanish speaking communities dating to the 1800s, and we have to listen to pundits on TV tell us these US citizens (who have been here longer than the pundits have, in many cases) are somehow less than human. New York, Chicago, and probably every major city also has these pockets of Spanish speaking communities that are older than all of us.

 

We really just gotta stop the xenophobia. None of us know the stories of the people we see and try to put into a box.

 

The vast majority of "undocumented immigrants" in the US are people who were here legally but overstayed their visas. A wall won't help this, nor will a militant ICE organization. ICE was born out of post 9/11 paranoia and the sooner we get rid of it the better.

 

I have never heard a valid argument against immigration or a valid argument against immigrants. Our social and economic problems are caused by whites, full stop.

This was a good post, right up until you blamed all of our problems on one race.

Apparently, generalization and stereotyping is only bad against certain races.

[Doomtints]

 

This was a good post, right up until you blamed all of our problems on one race.
Apparently, generalization and stereotyping is only bad against certain races.

 

Not blaming. Taking responsibility. I am white and I grew up privileged. As an adult, I make six figures as a certified PMP (which is very much one of those tests that the privileged are more apt to pass) and I married a Stanford grad. My family has been in the Americas since Jamestown. From 1900 on my grandfathers worked in the oil industry with, yes, close ties to the Kochs.

 

As whites, let's stop calling it blaming. Let's stand up and take responsibility. We set the course in this country. It took me damn near twenty years after I set out on my own to get all the privileged bull**** out of my head, I don't see why the rest of us can't do the same.

 

We are Americans, we are humans, and as a rule the whites in this country don't see it that way. (And though the first inclination is to feel defensive to such a statement and to dismiss it, before reacting ask why it's so offensive. It's threatening even though it shouldn't be. Sharing resources? Big deal....)

[TheLeviathan]

 

Not blaming. Taking responsibility. I am white and I grew up privileged. As an adult, I make six figures as a certified PMP (which is very much one of those tests that the privileged are more apt to pass) and I married a Stanford grad. My family has been in the Americas since Jamestown. From 1900 on my grandfathers worked in the oil industry with, yes, close ties to the Kochs.

 

As whites, let's stop calling it blaming. Let's stand up and take responsibility. We set the course in this country. It took me damn near twenty years after I set out on my own to get all the privileged bull**** out of my head, I don't see why the rest of us can't do the same.

 

We are Americans, we are humans, and as a rule the whites in this country don't see it that way. (And though the first inclination is to feel defensive to such a statement and to dismiss it, before reacting ask why it's so offensive. It's threatening even though it shouldn't be. Sharing resources? Big deal....)

 

I really think this is a gross misunderstanding or privilege.  That or it's been warped to a point that I can no longer agree with it.  

 

As a white male I have had many advantages in life.  These were not my choice or my fault, though at times I may have been unaware of them and overconfident in my own abilities.  I spend my life trying to help everyone have opportunity in part because I've seen the gap that privilege can create.

 

That said, I am not "responsible" for the ills of our world nor the privileges I live with.  I may be irresponsible if I don't acknowledge the differences and work to change them, but by default I am not responsible either.  I am not to blame for my ancestors, I am to blame if I don't work to change it.

 

That distinction, which is crucial, appears utterly lacking in this paragraph.  I find what you typed here to it's own version of problematic and unhelpful.  Sadly, this is what many privileged white males hear and why it is so hard for them to understand the argument about privilege.  I'd encourage you to take a good long look at what you typed and what it communicates.

[Doomtints]

Actually, what you typed is exactly how I feel. Whether you are a better writer than I am or a worse reader, I don't know, but in any case we are on the same page.

 

I don't blame my ancestors for giving me what I have. I acknowledge that I have acted in ways that I was completely unaware of and it's on me (and us) to change the future to be more inclusive.

 

If someone wants to say my group screwed things up (and continues to screw things up) they are not wrong. Acknowledging this is important.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Actually, what you typed is exactly how I feel. Whether you are a better writer than I am or a worse reader, I don't know, but in any case we are on the same page.

 

I don't blame my ancestors for giving me what I have. I acknowledge that I have acted in ways that I was completely unaware of and it's on me (and us) to change the future to be more inclusive.

 

If someone wants to say my group screwed things up (and continues to screw things up) they are not wrong. Acknowledging this is important.

 

Yes, but the word "responsible" has a lot of connotations.  Frankly, the way you phrased things is exactly the kind of phrasing that causes privilege to be controversial.  (There are other factors, but it's a legitimate criticism)  Too often this important concept is spoken of in a way that comes off as finger pointing.

 

I'm glad you feel similarly, I hope you see the distinction between what I said and what you said.  Quick anecdote: I talked with a cousin of mine - imagine the minimally educated, farm-town, white kid, Trump voter and you have him.  I love him, he's been like a brother to me.  When we were talking politics while I was home on break he mentioned privilege and his issue was feeling like he was attacked and blamed for wrongs of the past.  It immediately put him on the defensive.  I explained how I came from the same background but because of my work with young black men in Chicago - I had my eyes opened wide.  I tried to convey some of the conditions working against those kids to him.  How, no matter how rough his life was at times, it was still privileged compared to them.  But what I had to emphasize was that it wasn't his fault.  And it truly isn't his fault.  Where he could go wrong is in refusing to acknowledge the pain those kids go through.  He was open to hearing that, but not the way privilege was coming off to him.  

 

This issue needs to be one that reaches all whites and men and other groups.  But it can't be finger pointing, that has the exact opposite effect of what we want.  

[Mr. Brooks]

Not blaming. Taking responsibility. I am white and I grew up privileged. As an adult, I make six figures as a certified PMP (which is very much one of those tests that the privileged are more apt to pass) and I married a Stanford grad. My family has been in the Americas since Jamestown. From 1900 on my grandfathers worked in the oil industry with, yes, close ties to the Kochs.

 

As whites, let's stop calling it blaming. Let's stand up and take responsibility. We set the course in this country. It took me damn near twenty years after I set out on my own to get all the privileged bull**** out of my head, I don't see why the rest of us can't do the same.

 

We are Americans, we are humans, and as a rule the whites in this country don't see it that way. (And though the first inclination is to feel defensive to such a statement and to dismiss it, before reacting ask why it's so offensive. It's threatening even though it shouldn't be. Sharing resources? Big deal....)

Everyone is responsible for their choices, no matter how advantaged or disadvantaged they are.

Saying everything is the fault of white people is not only irresponsible, it's racist.

[biggentleben]

 

This tweet shows that he cannot resist about bragging about anything (and here he is bragging about buying fast food even though he himself owns a hotel nearby where he could have upped it a level), and that he has to lie about anything (even if there were 50 people in attendance - for 1000 burgers to be gone, it would mean each person had 20 burgers), and he really does not believe in proof-reading.

 

The real crap of this is that the players were required to be at a dress code, some of them had to borrow suits and/or tuxes as they did not own one or have the money to rent one. They were not pleased about this choice of food, yet the POTUS wants to claim that they "wanted" this.

 

Seriously, wtf.

[Doomtints]

 

Everyone is responsible for their choices, no matter how advantaged or disadvantaged they are.
Saying everything is the fault of white people is not only irresponsible, it's racist.

 

The intent behind me posting my personal background was specifically to make you, personally, understand that I am not approaching this issue from a position of racism or classism.  I am not blaming a group other than the group I am firmly entrenched in. And no, I don't hate myself nor do I hate my peers. I am acknowledging the mess we've made and are continuing to make.

 

I assumed if I posted personal info on myself you might be able to understand. *shrug*

[TheLeviathan]

This conversation reminds me of the firestorm Tucker Carlson started on the right a few weeks back.  

 

This might belong in the general politics thread, but I think it's well worth the read.  We have firebrand conservatives starting ot wonder aloud if personal responsibility is that simple.  If, perhaps, societal factors influenced by public policy might be bigger factors on the virtues and actions....well that flips conservatism on it's head.

 

I don't think "people are responsible for their choices" is that simple.  The disadvantages some people are faced with does muddle the ethics.  For example, I knew a kid who went down the wrong path because he joined a gang.  The "people are responsible" folks would say "Well...don't join the gang dummy!"

 

Except that young man lived in a household where his parents were druggies and he was in charge, at the age of 6, for caring for his younger sibling.  One of those siblings died in a fire because he was making her lunch (at the age of 6!) and burned their house down.  After she died, the parents were arrested, and he was left with no one and the trauma of what had happened.  Are his choices as simple as "Well, he made them, he's responsible!"  

 

I hope not.  If that's your conclusion, you need to get out and see what's happening in some of parts of our country and the world.  Personal responsibility is an easy catch phrase.  It's also ridiculous as a catch-all when the rubber meets the road.

[Mr. Brooks]

The intent behind me posting my personal background was specifically to make you, personally, understand that I am not approaching this issue from a position of racism or classism. I am not blaming a group other than the group I am firmly entrenched in. And no, I don't hate myself nor do I hate my peers. I am acknowledging the mess we've made and are continuing to make.

 

I assumed if I posted personal info on myself you might be able to understand. *shrug*

I can't read your mind.

I can only respond to what you posted, which is that all of our social and financial problems are caused by the white race.

You being white, or posting your background doesn't make that any less racist. Nor does suggesting that I just don't understand.

It's not only racist towards whites, it's equally racist towards minorities. The soft bigotry of low expectations.

If they make poor choices, it's not their fault, it's the white man's fault.

 

Give me a break.

White privilege is real, but you destroy any chance of facing it or overcoming it with statements like everything is the fault of white people.

[Doomtints]

What I said was that I have zero social or financial problems. Please go back and read it.

 

Let's table this discussion as it's going off the rails.

[Mr. Brooks]

This conversation reminds me of the firestorm Tucker Carlson started on the right a few weeks back.

 

This might belong in the general politics thread, but I think it's well worth the read. We have firebrand conservatives starting ot wonder aloud if personal responsibility is that simple. If, perhaps, societal factors influenced by public policy might be bigger factors on the virtues and actions....well that flips conservatism on it's head.

 

I don't think "people are responsible for their choices" is that simple. The disadvantages some people are faced with does muddle the ethics. For example, I knew a kid who went down the wrong path because he joined a gang. The "people are responsible" folks would say "Well...don't join the gang dummy!"

 

Except that young man lived in a household where his parents were druggies and he was in charge, at the age of 6, for caring for his younger sibling. One of those siblings died in a fire because he was making her lunch (at the age of 6!) and burned their house down. After she died, the parents were arrested, and he was left with no one and the trauma of what had happened. Are his choices as simple as "Well, he made them, he's responsible!"

 

I hope not. If that's your conclusion, you need to get out and see what's happening in some of parts of our country and the world. Personal responsibility is an easy catch phrase. It's also ridiculous as a catch-all when the rubber meets the road.

See, your argument here involves nuance. This is a realistic debate to be had. I agree with much, though not all of what you say. That child may have had few choices, but it sounds like the people who should have been raising him were making poor choices along the way somewhere.

 

A statement with no nuance though, like every single problem is the fault of whites. Nope. That's shockingly racist, and leaves no room for resolution, let alone discussion.

[Mr. Brooks]

What I said was that I have zero social or financial problems. Please go back and read it.

 

Let's table this discussion as it's going off the rails.

These are your words:

 

Our social and economic problems are caused by whites, full stop.

 

Are you suggesting that your use of "our" meant your household, not our country?

[TheLeviathan]

 

See, your argument here involves nuance. This is a realistic debate to be had. I agree with much, though not all of what you say. That child may have had few choices, but it sounds like the people who should have been raising him were making poor choices along the way somewhere.

A statement with no nuance though, like every single problem is the fault of whites. Nope. That's shockingly racist, and leaves no room for resolution, let alone discussion.

 

I agree, I took issue with that element of hte response as well.  I just didn't like your succinct version of "eveyrone is responsible for their own choices" either for some of hte same reasons.

[PseudoSABR]

Seems somewhat relevant to this thread:  Gillette's new ad

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=koPmuEyP3a0&feature=share

[Badsmerf]

I like the ad. My right wing friends in Iowa hate it. Being a man is more than having the anatomy, and we should be setting the example for our boys.

[PseudoSABR]

The smugness of that MAGA kid glaring at the Native American veteran drumming makes my skin crawl.   CNN article for context.

[Badsmerf]

The smugness of that MAGA kid glaring at the Native American veteran drumming makes my skin crawl. CNN article for context.

I saw that and sighed. As a parent, I would be planning an educational trip to teach my kid all the horrible things we did to the native Americans. I would be thoroughly embarrassed.

[ashbury]

I saw that and sighed. As a parent, I would be planning an educational trip to teach my kid all the horrible things we did to the native Americans. I would be thoroughly embarrassed.

As a former midwesterner raised in Indiana, I feel as though the context of Covington, Kentucky being a Cincinnati suburb is worth knowing. On one hand, it's not the Deep South. On the other, if they re-drew the Mason-Dixon line right down the center stripe of US 40, MD-PA-WV-OH-IN-IL, they wouldn't be far wrong. Further west, I'm not sure, I think the line jogs NNW sharply toward Canada.

[TheLeviathan]

 

The smugness of that MAGA kid glaring at the Native American veteran drumming makes my skin crawl.   CNN article for context.

 

It's a spin on what the gubernatorial candidate from Florida said (paraphrasing): Not all Republicans are racists, but we sure know what party the racists are voting with.

[Mr. Brooks]

It turns out the initial video lacks the vast majority of the context of what happened there:

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/01/21/us/maga-hat-teens-native-american-second-video/index.html

[TheLeviathan]

 

It turns out the initial video lacks the vast majority of the context of what happened there:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/01/21/us/maga-hat-teens-native-american-second-video/index.html

 

It does look like the real bad guys in this ordeal were not mentioned at all.  I'm unclear exactly what this group believe or is, but they sound like the instigators.  

 

As smug as that kid looked, the whole video shows he wasn't being disrespectful.  

[Mr. Brooks]

Twitter has suspended the user who tweeted the original, misleading one minute video.

 

A spokesperson for Twitter told CNN Business, "Deliberate attempts to manipulate the public conversation on Twitter by using misleading account information is a violation of the Twitter Rules."

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

It turns out the initial video lacks the vast majority of the context of what happened there:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2019/01/21/us/maga-hat-teens-native-american-second-video/index.html

And then you zoom out even more, and it starts to look pretty much like it looked originally. A bunch of private school kids (mostly white) wearing MAGA hats haranguing some minorities.

 

The black Israelites are provocative, to be sure. But their numbers are too small to be of any concern.

[PseudoSABR]

Josh Marshall gives a clear-eyed run down of the events, providing video links etc.   I tend to agree with his conclusions, that both the Black Israelites and the MAGA kids were acting inappropriately. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

There's no denying the smirk, but on second thought I'm going to give Sandmann a pass. He wasn't smirking the whole time and he had those other kids behind him egging it on. If Phillips walked directly up to me singing that song and drumming I'd probably be frozen in place too.

[PseudoSABR]

 

There's no denying the smirk, but on second thought I'm going to give Sandmann a pass. He wasn't smirking the whole time and he had those other kids behind him egging it on. If Phillips walked directly up to me singing that song and drumming I'd probably be frozen in place too.

Whether we give Sandmann a pass or not, I won't give his chaperones a pass.

[MMMordabito]

 

Not blaming. Taking responsibility. I am white and I grew up privileged. As an adult, I make six figures as a certified PMP (which is very much one of those tests that the privileged are more apt to pass) and I married a Stanford grad. My family has been in the Americas since Jamestown. From 1900 on my grandfathers worked in the oil industry with, yes, close ties to the Kochs.

 

As whites, let's stop calling it blaming. Let's stand up and take responsibility. We set the course in this country. It took me damn near twenty years after I set out on my own to get all the privileged bull**** out of my head, I don't see why the rest of us can't do the same.

 

We are Americans, we are humans, and as a rule the whites in this country don't see it that way. (And though the first inclination is to feel defensive to such a statement and to dismiss it, before reacting ask why it's so offensive. It's threatening even though it shouldn't be. Sharing resources? Big deal....)

 

I think the first thing you need to do is donate about 80-90% of your yearly income or whatever gets you down to the poverty level of [insert marginalized group of choice], then you can write posts telling everyone how they should behave and take responsibility.  If you are already doing that, then congratulations, you're the first person that I know who puts their money where their mouth is when it comes to this "issue".

 

Posting on an internet forum isn't really standing up and taking responsibility.  Perhaps, it just make you feel less guilty about something you really shouldn't feel guilty about.  Next time just skip the post, just get in your $25K Subaru (they're committed to making the world a better place), stop and take in a Twins game (they're committed to diversity) and then ride the rest of the way up to your cabin.  You can feel good about what you did to make the world a better place.

 

[biggentleben]

 

There's no denying the smirk, but on second thought I'm going to give Sandmann a pass. He wasn't smirking the whole time and he had those other kids behind him egging it on. If Phillips walked directly up to me singing that song and drumming I'd probably be frozen in place too.

 

Multiple videos that have come out have shown that Phillips was attempting to walk to a place between the two groups and Sandmann stepped in front of him to stop him after the crowd had opened up to allow Phillips through, knowing what his intent was.

 

The boys are also on video adorning their MAGA gear after the rally and then harassing multiple women on their way to the mall. They were not supposed to be anywhere near the Lincoln Memorial, however, and they were told of the IPMDC19 going on at Lincoln Memorial and told to give space, so their presence there was not accidental at all.

 

There are many more videos that have come out from members of the IPMDC19 group and the Black Israelites that show very different things than the first longer video. Odd that none of those videos has been retweeted by every Faux News fanboy/fangirl online.