Vikings Off-Season Thread

[ashbury]

  On 1/15/2019 at 2:10 PM, diehardtwinsfan said:

I'm fine with that to an extent. I'm not sure he should be calling plays, though I'd love to know if the O and D minds sit down and talk about how they'd counter each other..

Geez, they kind of have to, don't they? Though hopefully it doesn't degenerate into "My squad is red hot, your squad ain't doodly squat."

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 1/15/2019 at 3:17 PM, ashburyjohn said:

Geez, they kind of have to, don't they? Though hopefully it doesn't degenerate into "My squad is red hot, your squad ain't doodly squat."

 

I'm sure it comes up in the context of "How will this give us an advantage?"  But, from my admittedly much lower scale on gameplanning, the way diehard described things does not actually happen much.

 

You get into it a little bit during scrimmages and I bet that conversation floats around a bit during training camp, but I don't think it happens as much as people think.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

  On 1/15/2019 at 7:09 PM, TheLeviathan said:

I'm sure it comes up in the context of "How will this give us an advantage?"  But, from my admittedly much lower scale on gameplanning, the way diehard described things does not actually happen much.

 

You get into it a little bit during scrimmages and I bet that conversation floats around a bit during training camp, but I don't think it happens as much as people think.

 

yeah, and if I were coaching, that would be a meeting that happens once both O and D have their game plans designed for the upcoming game. 

[ashbury]

  On 1/16/2019 at 8:00 PM, diehardtwinsfan said:

yeah, and if I were coaching, that would be a meeting that happens once both O and D have their game plans designed for the upcoming game. 

After having previously endorsed the notion, I'm cooling on it. Sure, every now and then it'd be a good high-level conversation (preferably over beers), and the occasional valuable observation might emerge. But everyone has a full-time job preparing for the actual opponents each week, and moreover you can't for example expect your D-coordinator to invest time speculating about a plan against your actual offense using defensive players he knows only vaguely about. Comparing game plans wouldn't be effective since on Sunday afternoon that isn't how the plans are put into operation - the elements of surprise and uncertainty don't lend themselves to cross-checking. Finally, it would be a hard task to manage the personalities of these two coaches poking their noses into the other's business - "all right, you've proved that no plan I can ever come up with is going to work. It's this crappy offensive line I have to work with. Are you trying to get me fired?"

[Mike Sixel]

Two exciting games today. Wow.

[Mike Sixel]

Sigh. Suckage coming.

[TheLeviathan]

Mark Craig has a good piece about OLs. Worth a read. (Pretty thoroughly refutes some misnoers around here)

[Badsmerf]

Link?

[Mr. Brooks]

  On 1/21/2019 at 5:47 AM, TheLeviathan said:

Mark Craig has a good piece about OLs. Worth a read. (Pretty thoroughly refutes some misnoers around here)

Which misnomers?

I thought the piece pretty definitively pointed out that you need a good o-line to succeed.

 

If you mean that those teams didn't spend a lot of high draft picks on o-line, ok. I'll give you that, but they found them somewhere. The Vikings haven't done that. If the Vikings were finding good linemen other places, I bet there wouldn't be many people in here urging them to draft more linemen.

 

If anything, I think this piece disputes some of your points you always make. Clearly it's not as hard as you suggest to find good offensive linemen, given the varied avenues that these well run teams have found them. This piece just makes me even more infuriated at how poor of a job Spielman has done in this regard.

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 1/21/2019 at 12:59 PM, Mr. Brooks said:

Which misnomers?
I thought the piece pretty definitively pointed out that you need a good o-line to succeed.

If you mean that those teams didn't spend a lot of high draft picks on o-line, ok. I'll give you that, but they found them somewhere. The Vikings haven't done that. If the Vikings were finding good linemen other places, I bet there wouldn't be many people in here urging them to draft more linemen.

If anything, I think this piece disputes some of your points you always make. Clearly it's not as hard as you suggest to find good offensive linemen, given the varied avenues that these well run teams have found them. This piece just makes me even more infuriated at how poor of a job Spielman has done in this regard.

 

Spielman and Zimmer have done a poor job finding the right players to fit.  I think I blame Zimmer mostly because he meddles with the offense and knows very little about what he's doing.  Sporano covered some of that up last year and helped the offensive line be competent.  I don't think it's a coincidence that they lose the strong willed o-line coach and they fall apart with roughly the same players as last year.  

 

But the leading misnomer is that good teams spend high picks on linemen.  They don't.    That's false and I've been saying how false it is nearly non-stop for several years.  I even used the example of the Patroits in the last draft.  When they took Wynn it was the first early lineman they had taken since Solder nearly a decade ago now.  You do not have to build a line through the first round, that cat can be skinned many different ways.  

 

It's also true that it's hard to find good offensive lineman.  What these teams prove is the value of having coaching staffs/front offices that know how to identify the right players and coach them effectively.  I've never denied that the Vikings haven't been very good at this.  It has to change, but simply investing first round picks into these guys won't solve it either.  Hell, it's probably better they don't.  They haven't shown the ability to identify the right guys (in FA either, btw.  Remmers was mostly a bad signing.  Ditto Compton.), so why have them invest the most valuable pick in a position they clearly don't understand how to identify?  At that point I'd rather they throw darts with second and third round picks and draft what they do seem to know well.

 

Kubiak has a helluva reputation with zone blocking and that fits Elflein and O'Neill to a tee.  Maybe his influence in the room can help them better identify guys to play guard for this team.

[Doomtints]

I don't think the Vikes could find better people than Zimmer and Spielman, to be quite honest.

This is one of those "be careful what you wish for" moments. It's a shame they pulled the trigger on a QB when they did, but they were very close in 2017 so I can't blame them for grabbing the best that was available. There will be better QBs available this year, but now the window has closed.

[Mr. Brooks]

  On 1/21/2019 at 2:46 PM, TheLeviathan said:

Spielman and Zimmer have done a poor job finding the right players to fit. I think I blame Zimmer mostly because he meddles with the offense and knows very little about what he's doing. Sporano covered some of that up last year and helped the offensive line be competent. I don't think it's a coincidence that they lose the strong willed o-line coach and they fall apart with roughly the same players as last year.

 

But the leading misnomer is that good teams spend high picks on linemen. They don't. That's false and I've been saying how false it is nearly non-stop for several years. I even used the example of the Patroits in the last draft. When they took Wynn it was the first early lineman they had taken since Solder nearly a decade ago now. You do not have to build a line through the first round, that cat can be skinned many different ways.

 

It's also true that it's hard to find good offensive lineman. What these teams prove is the value of having coaching staffs/front offices that know how to identify the right players and coach them effectively. I've never denied that the Vikings haven't been very good at this. It has to change, but simply investing first round picks into these guys won't solve it either. Hell, it's probably better they don't. They haven't shown the ability to identify the right guys (in FA either, btw. Remmers was mostly a bad signing. Ditto Compton.), so why have them invest the most valuable pick in a position they clearly don't understand how to identify? At that point I'd rather they throw darts with second and third round picks and draft what they do seem to know well.

 

Kubiak has a helluva reputation with zone blocking and that fits Elflein and O'Neill to a tee. Maybe his influence in the room can help them better identify guys to play guard for this team.

Sure, all of that. Which makes it all the more perplexing to me that Spielman and Zimmer are still here.

I was hoping I'd cool down as the emotion of the season got further in the rear view mirror. Instead, it just keeps burning a bigger and bigger pit in my stomach that these two are still around.

Obviously ownership doesn't agree, as I do believe they WANT to win, but I'm convinced we're throwing away another season by keeping them around. I don't believe they have any chance to win a Super Bowl.

[Mr. Brooks]

  On 1/21/2019 at 2:55 PM, Doomtints said:

I don't think the Vikes could find better people than Zimmer and Spielman, to be quite honest.

This is one of those "be careful what you wish for" moments. It's a shame they pulled the trigger on a QB when they did, but they were very close in 2017 so I can't blame them for grabbing the best that was available. There will be better QBs available this year, but now the window has closed.

Why not?

Why can't they find better people? Other teams do, are they cursed or something?

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 1/21/2019 at 2:58 PM, Mr. Brooks said:

Sure, all of that. Which makes it all the more perplexing to me that Spielman and Zimmer are still here.
I was hoping I'd cool down as the emotion of the season got further in the rear view mirror. Instead, it just keeps burning a bigger and bigger pit in my stomach that these two are still around.
Obviously ownership doesn't agree, as I do believe they WANT to win, but I'm convinced we're throwing away another season by keeping them around. I don't believe they have any chance to win a Super Bowl.

 

Maybe Kubiak is the Plan B if they feel the need to fire mid-season?  I don't know.  

 

I like Spielman as a GM, but my confidence in Zimmer is pretty shaken.  At one point I thought he'd get us to a Super Bowl, now I'm kind of dreading another wasted season with him as the coach.

[Mr. Brooks]

  On 1/21/2019 at 3:03 PM, TheLeviathan said:

Maybe Kubiak is the Plan B if they feel the need to fire mid-season? I don't know.

 

I like Spielman as a GM, but my confidence in Zimmer is pretty shaken. At one point I thought he'd get us to a Super Bowl, now I'm kind of dreading another wasted season with him as the coach.

Spielman assembles the team. I find it odd you are still in his corner, given the article you just highlighted showing how important it is to identify and acquire good offensive linemen.

[Mr. Brooks]

  On 1/21/2019 at 3:03 PM, TheLeviathan said:

Maybe Kubiak is the Plan B if they feel the need to fire mid-season? I don't know.

 

I like Spielman as a GM, but my confidence in Zimmer is pretty shaken. At one point I thought he'd get us to a Super Bowl, now I'm kind of dreading another wasted season with him as the coach.

My philosophy is that if you ever have such little faith in a coach, that you are entering a season with an active plan B, you should probably just cut the cord.

[TheLeviathan]

  On 1/21/2019 at 3:06 PM, Mr. Brooks said:

Spielman assembles the team. I find it odd you are still in his corner, given the article you just highlighted showing how important it is to identify and acquire good offensive linemen.

He has done really well assembling all but two positions. The guy manages the draft really well. Maybe that shouldn't save him, but it counts in his corner.

[Mr. Brooks]

  On 1/21/2019 at 3:25 PM, TheLeviathan said:

He has done really well assembling all but two positions. The guy manages the draft really well. Maybe that shouldn't save him, but it counts in his corner.

But those 2 positions (I'm assuming you mean OL and QB), are probably the most important to get right. Just look at the final 4 teams. Assembling a good defense is nice, but doesn't appear to have too much correlation to getting to the Super Bowl anymore.

[TheLeviathan]

  On 1/21/2019 at 3:36 PM, Mr. Brooks said:

But those 2 positions (I'm assuming you mean OL and QB), are probably the most important to get right. Just look at the final 4 teams. Assembling a good defense is nice, but doesn't appear to have too much correlation to getting to the Super Bowl anymore.

That's certainly a fair point. I wouldnt put up much resistance to both being fired.

[Mr. Brooks]

  On 1/21/2019 at 3:41 PM, TheLeviathan said:

That's certainly a fair point. I wouldnt put up much resistance to both being fired.

Fair.

[Mike Sixel]

The reason I want the picks high is that the other approaches are not working, over multiple years.... And, yes, it points out that good lines matter. Which is my main point. This is an offense first league, and Zimmer is a dinosaur in thinking otherwise.

[TheLeviathan]

  On 1/21/2019 at 3:55 PM, Mike Sixel said:

The reason I want the picks high is that the other approaches are not working, over multiple years.... And, yes, it points out that good lines matter. Which is my main point. This is an offense first league, and Zimmer is a dinosaur in thinking otherwise.

I agree with the vast majority of this paragraph.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

  On 1/21/2019 at 2:55 PM, Doomtints said:

I don't think the Vikes could find better people than Zimmer and Spielman, to be quite honest.

This is one of those "be careful what you wish for" moments. It's a shame they pulled the trigger on a QB when they did, but they were very close in 2017 so I can't blame them for grabbing the best that was available. There will be better QBs available this year, but now the window has closed.

 

I tend to agree. For the most part, they've done a good job.. I do, however, think they need to fix the line once and for all. No question it was our biggest weakness this year... and I'm still baffled that they did nothing to improve it after guaranteeing 84M to a guy who doesn't do well under pressure. 

[Vanimal46]

I bet all of the teams that signed a McVay protege as HC are thinking they made a huge mistake this morning after the genius got out coached by Belichick...

[Mr. Brooks]

  On 2/4/2019 at 5:19 PM, Vanimal46 said:

I bet all of the teams that signed a McVay protege as HC are thinking they made a huge mistake this morning after the genius got out coached by Belichick...

Yes, how terrible would it be to get to the Super Bowl... oh wait, I wouldn't know.

[Mike Sixel]

  On 2/4/2019 at 5:19 PM, Vanimal46 said:

I bet all of the teams that signed a McVay protege as HC are thinking they made a huge mistake this morning after the genius got out coached by Belichick...

So, every team hates their head coach then? This isn't your best take....

[Doomtints]

Rumors are Everson Griffen will be cut. 

 

Right choice?

 

He is clearly important to the team as evidenced by his issues last year coinciding with the team dropping off a cliff in the middle of the season. So he's good and probably undervalued.

 

On the other hand, if he has a relapse and the team needs him this much, falling off a cliff again is another possibility. Key players having issues will affect everybody.

 

On the other other hand, if he relapses and he's not on the team anymore, would the players still be heavily affected then too? Perhaps so.

[Vanimal46]

It's the right choice to manage their salary cap. His cap hit is $10.7 million if he doesn't restructure.

 

Hard to say if it's the right choice for the team. I agree his absence affected the team's performance. It's hard not to affect the team when one of your leaders loses their sanity.

[Badsmerf]

Right choice. He wasn't the same when he came back. Rarely impacted games. Not worth the money at this point. The defense was mediocre, and he had a lot to do with that.

[Mike Sixel]

They need the cap space. Add Remmers' money, and they can sign a player or two without also having to cut Rudolph.

 

Griffen was not the same when he returned. I'm surprised this isn't a restructure.