Harold Baines and Lee Smith are Hall of Famers

[Seth Stohs]

MLB announced tonight that a 16-person committee decided that DH Harold Baines and RP Lee Smith are now Hall of Famers.

 

Here is the announcement: 

 

Aaron Gleeman makes a good point here. 

 

https://twitter.com/AaronGleeman/status/1071940218016546816 

 

 

Now I'm 100% convinced that Joe Mauer, Johan Santana, TOny Oliva... Joe Nathan... they should all be HOFers. 

[Pius Jefferson]

Baines being in is an absolute joke. He compiled his numbers and he didn't reach any milestone. Didn't have 3,000 hits, didn't hit 400 home runs. He was a corner OF and DH for his entire career and slugged only .465. He made only six all star games and his best MVP finish was 9th.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't know why anyone not related to a player cares.

[ashbury]

"The 16-person Today's Game Committee consisted of Hall of Famers Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Pat Gillick, Tony La Russa, Greg Maddux, Joe Morgan, John Schuerholz, Ozzie Smith, and Joe Torre; major league executives Al Avila, Paul Beeston, Andy MacPhail, and Jerry Reinsdorf; and media members/baseball historians Steve Hirdt, Tim Kurkjian, and Claire Smith."
 

Wow. These are no dummies, but I sure don't get the choices they made here.

[one_eyed_jack]

 

Baines being in is an absolute joke. He compiled his numbers and he didn't reach any milestone. Didn't have 3,000 hits, didn't hit 400 home runs. He was a corner OF and DH for his entire career and slugged only .465. He made only six all star games and his best MVP finish was 9th.

 

Yeah no disrespect to Harold Baines, a respected guy who had an impressive career, but putting him in seems to noticeably lower the bar.

 

If he gets in, so should a number of other guys whose careers peaked around the same time, and were every bit as good as Baines if not better; Don Mattingly, Dwight Evans, Lou Whitaker, and Dale Murphy are few that jump to mind, I'm sure there are others.

[Pius Jefferson]

 

"The 16-person Today's Game Committee consisted of Hall of Famers Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Pat Gillick, Tony La Russa, Greg Maddux, Joe Morgan, John Schuerholz, Ozzie Smith, and Joe Torre; major league executives Al Avila, Paul Beeston, Andy MacPhail, and Jerry Reinsdorf; and media members/baseball historians Steve Hirdt, Tim Kurkjian, and Claire Smith."
 

Wow. These are no dummies, but I sure don't get the choices they made here.

 

Blyleven seems like a dummy. 

[gil4]

 

Blyleven seems like a dummy. 

Anyone who voted for Baines is a dummy.   

[gil4]

 

Yeah no disrespect to Harold Baines, a respected guy who had an impressive career, but putting him in seems to noticeably lower the bar.

 

If he gets in, so should a number of other guys whose careers peaked around the same time, and were every bit as good as Baines if not better; Don Mattingly, Dwight Evans, Lou Whitaker, and Dale Murphy are few that jump to mind, I'm sure there are others.

The list is long. Kent Hrbek had a higher career WAR and much higher peak WAR.  About the only positive thing I can say about Baines as a Hall-of-Famer is he's probably not the worst one in there.

 

All those guys you listed were far superior to Baines - they all have more seasons over 6 WAR than Baines had over 4 WAR. His peak WAR was 4.3, and that was the only time he topped 4 WAR. He was a good baseball player for a long time, but he was never a great one. Mattingly and Murphy were great for a couple of years and very good for a couple more. Evans at his peak was bordering on great, and he was better than Baines' peak for a long, long time.

 

Any of those guys would have been a much better choice. We would probably have to double to membership of the HoF to get to the point where Baines was the best remaining choice.  

 

[nclahammer]

From 1987 - 2001, Harold Baines never played in the field on defense for more than 24 games in a single season.  Most years he was 100% DH and a one dimensional player.  A very good player, just not HOF worthy IMO.

[Respy]

Apparently Will Clark and Orel Hershiser were also on the ballot. They are also fringe candidates, but would have been much more worthy.

[one_eyed_jack]

 

The list is long. Kent Hrbek had a higher career WAR and much higher peak WAR.  About the only positive thing I can say about Baines as a Hall-of-Famer is he's probably not the worst one in there.

 

All those guys you listed were far superior to Baines - they all have more seasons over 6 WAR than Baines had over 4 WAR. His peak WAR was 4.3, and that was the only time he topped 4 WAR. He was a good baseball player for a long time, but he was never a great one. Mattingly and Murphy were great for a couple of years and very good for a couple more. Evans at his peak was bordering on great, and he was better than Baines' peak for a long, long time.

 

Any of those guys would have been a much better choice. We would probably have to double to membership of the HoF to get to the point where Baines was the best remaining choice.  

 

Indeed.  I guess the argument for Baines over Murphy or Mattingly would be that the latters' peaks were not long enough.  (it's a weak argument to me because as you say, Baines' peak wasn't all that high to begin with.)

 

And I'm with you on Evans.

 

Seems to me that the case for Dwight Evans is similar to but clearly stronger than the one for Baines.   If you're into longevity, I don't see a serious argument for Baines over Evans.  Evans had a higher peak, better overall offensive numbers, and 8 Gold Gloves.  

 

[gunnarthor]

Baines' WAR number doesn't put him in the HOF by most standards but he had a heck of a career. b-WAR gives him nearly negative 20 WAR for his defense but he could hit. His OPS+ 121 is higher than many HOFers and he did in over 11000 plate appearances, which is truly amazing.

 

I didn't think he was a HOFer but always thought he was president of the "professional hitters" squad. Only his rookie season and last season was his OPS+ below 100. So while I think most of us probably agree that his selection wasn't great, we should also try and remember that he had a pretty good career and probably shouldn't give him the Jack Morris treatment and degenerate his career.

[nicksaviking]

 

I don't know why anyone not related to a player cares.

 

Yeah, this is something I probably would have gotten anxious about back in the day, but it's not any more. I wouldn't have voted for either, but good for them anyway. This doesn't take anything away from the other folks enshrined. 

 

And, if their HOF caliber peers and contemporaries thought they were worthy, that probably counts for something. I don't put sportswriters down as a reference when I'm filling out my resume.

[lukeduke1980]

I thought Baines was the epitome of guys who belong in the 'Hall of Pretty Good'.  I guess he did get on base almost 4,000 times in his career 

[Thrylos]

They should rename it the Hall of Above Average and let in anyone who would like... 

[Mike Sixel]

A big Hall is more fun to visit. It could be so much more than it is, if it was in an actual city and they invested in it......

[Dr. Beanpole]

I'm fine with the Smith addition, when you think of relievers between Goose and Hoffman/Rivera the only 3 that really come to your mind are Eck, Sutter, and Lee Smith. Guy pitched well for a very long time. 

 

Baines stumps me. It has to be about the longevity, right? Belle has a higher career WAR and only 4 less HRs than Baines did, and Albert Belle played 10 seasons fewer than Baines. I'm thinking logging 21 years in the bigs gets you some extra clout with that group of players.

[Mr. Brooks]

A big Hall is more fun to visit. It could be so much more than it is, if it was in an actual city and they invested in it......

That's fine, and I no longer really care, but we now have to adjust our perceptions of what the HOF is.

When viewed as a museum to observe the history of baseball, it still works. But it's no longer a yardstick for the best of the best to ever play. It's basically become a participation ribbon.

[nicksaviking]

 

"The 16-person Today's Game Committee consisted of Hall of Famers Roberto Alomar, Bert Blyleven, Pat Gillick, Tony La Russa, Greg Maddux, Joe Morgan, John Schuerholz, Ozzie Smith, and Joe Torre; major league executives Al Avila, Paul Beeston, Andy MacPhail, and Jerry Reinsdorf; and media members/baseball historians Steve Hirdt, Tim Kurkjian, and Claire Smith."
 

Wow. These are no dummies, but I sure don't get the choices they made here.

 

It doesn't bother me either way, but looking at that list, Baines' chances probably weren't hurt by having one former teammate, one former manager and TWO of his former GMs voting. I'd imagine GMs like to tell stories about all the Hall of Fame players they were smart enough to acquire.

[nicksaviking]

 

That's fine, and I no longer really care, but we now have to adjust our perceptions of what the HOF is.
When viewed as a museum to observe the history of baseball, it still works. But it's no longer a yardstick for the best of the best to ever play. It's basically become a participation ribbon.

 

Well if you didn't adjust your perception of what the HOF is when Bill Mazeroski and Red Schoendienst got in, I don't know why you'd do it now. Guys deemed unworthy have been getting in forever.

[gil4]

 

A big Hall is more fun to visit. It could be so much more than it is, if it was in an actual city and they invested in it......

I've been twice - once as a kid and once as an adult - and really enjoyed it both times.  I have also been to the pro football HoF as an adult (it was not very good) and the college football HoF as a kid (I liked it, but apparently I was in the minority, because they closed and moved it). The baseball hall was by far the best. (I haven't been to the basketball HoF, despite growing up closer to it than any of the others.)

[amjgt]

 

Baines' WAR number doesn't put him in the HOF by most standards but he had a heck of a career. b-WAR gives him nearly negative 20 WAR for his defense but he could hit. His OPS+ 121 is higher than many HOFers and he did in over 11000 plate appearances, which is truly amazing.

 

 

 

Edgar Martinez's career OPS+ of 147 is higher than Baines ever had in any year.

[nicksaviking]

 

Edgar Martinez's career OPS+ of 147 is higher than Baines ever had in any year.

 

I'd guess Baines' enshrinement bodes quite well for Martinez's future chances. 

[kydoty]

If Harold Baines is the new bar that needs to be reached, then I can’t wait for Joe Mauer’s hall of fame speech in five years.

[jud6312]

 

MLB announced tonight that a 16-person committee decided that DH Harold Baines and RP Lee Smith are now Hall of Famers.

 

Here is the announcement: 

 

Aaron Gleeman makes a good point here. 

 

https://twitter.com/AaronGleeman/status/1071940218016546816 

 

 

Now I'm 100% convinced that Joe Mauer, Johan Santana, TOny Oliva... Joe Nathan... they should all be HOFers. 

Don't forget Jim Kaat.

[mickeymental]

might as well add brunansky.

[Mr. Brooks]

Well if you didn't adjust your perception of what the HOF is when Bill Mazeroski and Red Schoendienst got in, I don't know why you'd do it now. Guys deemed unworthy have been getting in forever.

It's different when guys like that could be pointed to as the exceptions. It's getting to be closer to the norm.

It's also different when a huge sample size of (theoretically) independent voters make an unworthy selection, versus a handful of biased ex players.

[gunnarthor]

 

Edgar Martinez's career OPS+ of 147 is higher than Baines ever had in any year.

I'm not sure why you posted that. No one was comparing him to Martinez. Do you not understand why a 121 OPS+ over 11,000 PA is impressive? That's higher than HOFers like Bourdeaux, Dawson and Carlton Fisk. It's better than current players like Manny Machedo, Nolan Arenado and Adrian Beltre. His bat was worth about 40 WAR over his long career. That's not bad. As earlier said, I don't think he belonged in the HOF but he had a very nice career.

[Mr. Brooks]

I'm not sure why you posted that. No one was comparing him to Martinez. Do you not understand why a 121 OPS+ over 11,000 PA is impressive? That's higher than HOFers like Bourdeaux, Dawson and Carlton Fisk. It's better than current players like Manny Machedo, Nolan Arenado and Adrian Beltre. His bat was worth about 40 WAR over his long career. That's not bad. As earlier said, I don't think he belonged in the HOF but he had a very nice career.

He posted that because it's not very impressive from a DH. You can't compare it to guys who played defensive positions.

[nicksaviking]

 

It's different when guys like that could be pointed to as the exceptions. It's getting to be closer to the norm.
It's also different when a huge sample size of (theoretically) independent voters make an unworthy selection, versus a handful of biased ex players.

 

Mazeroski and Schoendienst along with Hal Newhouser, Phil Rizzuto, Richie Ashburn, Nellie Fox, Pee Wee Reese, Jim Bunning, Joe Sewell, Enos Slaughter and hosts of turn of the century "Eh, OK" type players have gotten in from the Veteran's Committee. They were basically created to specifically put guys in that the writers didn't care enough about but their peers thought were suitable. I don't expect anyone to agree with the Veteran's Committee, or whatever it's called now, but this isn't new, it's been the norm since the 1970's.