LEN3 Throws Cold Water on Hot Stove

[S.]

 

The average of his WAR over the last three years is actually under 2.0 beause he had such a horrendous 2016 and you cannot brush aside a horrible year for a guy 32 years old.  Frame it how you want, but it took Philly 3 years at 17 a year with an option.  For the Twins to land him we'd have needed to beat that.

 

Grouse all you want about us not signing him, but I think we were wise not to puruse him.

Every time you reply you just ignore what people say and change your argument. You wanna complain about his 2016 numbers and "a horrible year for a guy 32 years old," except he was 29 in 2016. You accuse me of grousing about not signing him, when there is nowhere in this thread (or on this forum) where I have ever made a post pushing to sign McCutchen. You say, "Frame it how you want," while completely ignoring the fact that I said I wouldn't pay him 3/50 and was just disputing your notion of being able to get that WAR "from anywhere" as you so claimed. So you want to look at his 3 year average WAR? Ok, it's 1.5. If 1.5 WAR players are everywhere, how come we only had 10 of them on the Twins in 2018? and 4 of them were pitchers, so we had a total of 6 position players with over 1.5 WAR. In 2018, the Twins used 21 players who produced 0 or negative WAR. 19 players under 1 WAR but over 0. And a grand total of 13 players who put up over 1 WAR.

[ewen21]

 

Every time you reply you just ignore what people say and change your argument. You wanna complain about his 2016 numbers and "a horrible year for a guy 32 years old," except he was 29 in 2016. You accuse me of grousing about not signing him, when there is nowhere in this thread (or on this forum) where I have ever made a post pushing to sign McCutchen. You say, "Frame it how you want," while completely ignoring the fact that I said I wouldn't pay him 3/50 and was just disputing your notion of being able to get that WAR "from anywhere" as you so claimed. So you want to look at his 3 year average WAR? Ok, it's 1.5. If 1.5 WAR players are everywhere, how come we only had 10 of them on the Twins in 2018? and 4 of them were pitchers, so we had a total of 6 position players with over 1.5 WAR. In 2018, the Twins used 21 players who produced 0 or negative WAR. 19 players under 1 WAR but over 0. And a grand total of 13 players who put up over 1 WAR.

I know he was 29 and I know he is 32 now.  I have spoken enough about it and, quite frankly, I lost interest in this discussion before I made my last post.

 

For the record here is what I said:

The average of his WAR over the last three years is actually under 2.0

I did not say it was 2.0

 

You are trying too hard to catch me in a mistake and I admit I worded something wrong. The overall premise is getting lost

 

Time will tell if the Phillies made a mistake and I think they did

[Major League Ready]

OK, I ran the numbers for free agents signing 5+ year deals from 2012-2014. These are the most recent years in which 5 year deals would have run to completion. Here is what I found.

 

Cano and Grienke stood out by a wide margin. Of course, Cano’s deal has 5 years left. As of right now he produced an average of 4.14 WAR just like Greinke but for $10M less per season.

 

The remaining 10 players only averaged 1.41 WAR. In 53 cumulative seasons, the entire group only managed 17 seasons above 2 WAR while producing 36 season at 2 WAR or less.

 

The group produced 7 seasons at or above 4 WAR in 64 cumulative seasons. Greinke and Cano produced 5 of the 7. The other 10 players managed two 4 WAR season between them.

[Mr. Brooks]

Manny and Harper aren't and it the Twins seem to have no interest in that either.

Like I have said before the Twins always will be in rebuild mode hoping for one year to catch lightening in a bottle.

Harper and Machado aren't even taking a call from Minnesota.

 

You can't be a medium market in fly over country, AND a non contender, and expect to land one of those guys. Even just being one of the above is going to make it unlikely.

[Mike Sixel]

 

So much for McCutchen.

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/12/phillies-to-sign-andrew-mccutchen.html

 

Another team that rebuilt faster than this one....and signed a pitcher before they were "ready" and now, lo and behold, that pitcher is on their roster when they might be ready. Weird how that works.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I guess we can just look at WAR for all players on Fangraphs.to get a general sense of the relative scarcity of (let's say) 2 WAR players. There were 130 position players and 78 pitchers with a WAR of 2.0 or greater In 2018. In 2017, there were 134 position players and 80 pitchers.  Of course, a lot of players don't accumulate WAR because of losing a partial season to injury. I will leave it to everyone's own opinion as to just how scare is a 2 WAR player.

 

I am going to look into the average WAR for FAs that sign 5+ year contracts. I did that on a previous thread for 2016-18 and you would have to conclude FA is a bad model for building a winner. I am going to look back at 2014, 13, and 12 so that the entire term will have run on most of the contracts. It will be interesting to see how often the free agents that are so often positioned here actually deliver.

 

Are you going to look at the AAA players you'd have to use instead of the free agents, to see which provide more WAR? Or do we only care about $/WAR? Because if you don't sign a FA relief pitcher, you use what they already have in house.

[Major League Ready]

 

Are you going to look at the AAA players you'd have to use instead of the free agents, to see which provide more WAR? Or do we only care about $/WAR? Because if you don't sign a FA relief pitcher, you use what they already have in house.

Mike,

 

I think they need to sign a couple RPs but that has little to do with the numbers I ran given 5 year deals for RPs is extremely unusual.  The numbers illustrate how ineffective FA is in general but that does not mean we should not use that avenue to add. It just means we have to particularly smart about it. Plus, let's face it, we are in a bad position. The guys we had at AAA were not good for the most part last year so the need to pursue other avenues is elevated.

 

The RP market is exceptionally deep. That should make it more viable to use free agency effectively. Of course, RPs are notoriously inconsistent so I am at a loss where a suggestion of free agent RPs is concerned. 

[Vanimal46]

Another team that rebuilt faster than this one....and signed a pitcher before they were "ready" and now, lo and behold, that pitcher is on their roster when they might be ready. Weird how that works.

Wait, you mean to tell us good teams don't fill 6 holes on their roster every year?

[Major League Ready]

 

Another team that rebuilt faster than this one....and signed a pitcher before they were "ready" and now, lo and behold, that pitcher is on their roster when they might be ready. Weird how that works.

 

Are you really making the argument Arietta was a difference maker? He was a 2.0 WAR player. I think you are going way out of your way to try to find things that support your argument. Odorizzi who people talked about cutting this year had 2.6 WAR for less than half the money. Actually, the example you are using is a better example of failure than success. Players producing 1 WAR for $12.5M is self-defeating. If the Twins spent an additional $50M it would yield 4 wins assuming replacement level players would occupy their position which is not likely. Therefore, you are talking a net 2-3 wins.

 

Arietta used to be great. He produced 7.3 WAR in 2015. He fell off to 3.8 in 2016 and 2.4 to in 2017 and finally 2.0 in 2018. Is this really the model you want our team to follow. How about the other two top SPs (Darvish/Cobb) that signed last year. Were they keys to success. You keep harping on this strategy while completely ignoring what actually happened.

[Mike Sixel]

Are you really making the argument Arietta was a difference maker? He was a 2.0 WAR player. I think you are going way out of your way to try to find things that support your argument. Odorizzi who people talked about cutting this year had 2.6 WAR for less than half the money. Actually, the example you are using is a better example of failure than success. Players producing 1 WAR for $12.5M is self-defeating. If the Twins spent an additional $50M it would yield 4 wins assuming replacement level players would occupy their position which is not likely. Therefore, you are talking a net 2-3 wins.

 

Arietta used to be great. He produced 7.3 WAR in 2015. He fell off to 3.8 in 2016 and 2.4 to in 2017 and finally 2.0 in 2018. Is this really the model you want our team to follow. How about the other two top SPs (Darvish/Cobb) that signed last year. Were they keys to success. You keep harping on this strategy while completely ignoring what actually happened.

And you ignore the success stories. And, the alternative is? Slegers types like the last five to ten years? Odorizzi types , also not difference makers, and had no shot to be. Darvish got hurt. Sometimes that happens. But he had a shot to be great, and still might be. Ohtani got hurt too. Was that a bad signing? If the goal is to not take risks and be mediocre, the Twins are the poster children.

[Tomj14]

 

Harper and Machado aren't even taking a call from Minnesota.

You can't be a medium market in fly over country, AND a non contender, and expect to land one of those guys. Even just being one of the above is going to make it unlikely.

that was my point, Free agents in their prime won't come here, older free agents (as some have said in this thread are too expensive and a risk), that leaves dumpster diving and waiting on prospects (which fail at a very high rate) , which leaves a team rebuilding and hoping maybe some year to catch fire.

[Major League Ready]

 

And you ignore the success stories. And, the alternative is? Slegers types like the last five to ten years? Odorizzi types , also not difference makers, and had no shot to be. Darvish got hurt. Sometimes that happens. But he had a shot to be great, and still might be. Ohtani got hurt too. Was that a bad signing? If the goal is to not take risks and be mediocre, the Twins are the poster children.

 

We can debate the relative success or failure of this strategy in general but that is a different argument. Your position is these high profile players are essential to getting difference makers. Then you made a specific reference / example. Using a 2 WAR player @ $25M as a shining example of how to put together a winner lacks any form of objectivity and that's putting it nicely. You come back and site Odorizzi who had 2.6 WAR at under $8M as an example of the problem.

 

Let's just say we max the payroll as you suggest. I will take Odorizzi at 8M and add a Charlie Morton or equivalent at 14M and a BP arm for $3M instead or Arietta. You will have a big name that used to be good but I prefer the 5.8 WAR plus whatever I get from the $3M RP instead of a big name. Substitute Jed Lowry from the past two years if you like. The point being players who produce 1 WAR per $12.5M are a detriment to an average revenue team constructing a winner.

 

Let's look at the premise you have been promoting of late which is that it's a good idea to do this before the team is ready to compete. Let's go back and look at free agent SPs and see what they offered after their first year.

 

The truly elite (Scherzer / Greinke / Kershaw) who signed while still in there prime have been good bets. If you can get one of them to come to MN, great! One notch below elite and you don't want to give away that first year. There just are not that many so it's a SSS but that notch below elite collectively produced an average of 1.27 WAR/season if you exclude the 1st season. Once again history does not support your position unless you want to restrict your options to the truly elite. Those players are not coming here especially while we are still losing and there were no such players this year so that option is not available this year and the next group even slightly off the truly elite has proven to be a terrible strategy if you are not in a position to win immediately.

 

David Price WAR / 4.5 / 1.6 / 2.7
Johnny Cueto WAR 5.5 / 1.2 / 0.2
Jordan Zimmerman WAR 1.3 / 1 / 0.9
Jeff Samardzjia WAR / 2.6 / 3.8 / -0.2
Jon Lester WAR 5.0 / 4.3 / 2.7 / 1.7 / ? / ?
James Shields WAR 1.0 / -1.1 / -.3 / .8
Anibal Sanchez WAR 6 / 3.2 / 1 / 0.8 / 0.4
CJ Wilson WAR 2.2 / 3.2 / 0.7 / 1.5 / 0

 

[Mike Sixel]

Charlie Morton signed with the Rays, so there's another one gone. I agree, that would have worked here. But it didn't happen.

[Major League Ready]

 

Charlie Morton signed with the Rays, so there's another one gone. I agree, that would have worked here. But it didn't happen.

 

Charlie Morton being gone is of little relevance to what we were discussing. You have been insistent we should sign long-term deals even if we are not ready this year because we will have them when we are ready. I wondered if you might have a point so I looked back to 2012-2015 to present to see how that strategy plays out. In other words, how have these SPs performed after the 1st year. Well, they only produced 3 seasons with a 3+ war / and 16 seasons with a WAR of 1.7 or less. The average after the first year was 1.27 WAR.

 

You also used Arietta as an example of a good strategy. $25M on a 2 WAR pitcher is not only a bad strategy is self-defeating. The relevance of Charlie Morton was that he produced an additional 1.2 for $11M less which would pay for a premier BP arm which collectively is a much better strategy to produce wins. If we max the budget we would have roughly $60M to spend. Producing 5 WAR, assuming the 5th spot in the rotation is replacement level (Mejia is better than replacement level) is a very bad strategy.

 

I just assumed you would defend the strategy you have been adamant about. Is an average of 1.27 WAR a practice we should follow. Did free agent SPs perform better past year 1 in a different period. 

 

It's not just you, Mike. Lots of people here insist we should makes these moves ready or not because it's been a long time since we have been good. I did not go back all that far but the hard facts seem very clear that free agent SP contracts have been bad after the 1st year and horrible the last 2-3 years. I serious doubt we have heard the last of "I am tired of waiting" yet not a single defense of this strategy.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Charlie Morton being gone is of little relevance to what we were discussing. You have been insistent we should sign long-term deals even if we are not ready this year because we will have them when we are ready. I wondered if you might have a point so I looked back to 2012-2015 to present to see how that strategy plays out. In other words, how have these SPs performed after the 1st year. Well, they only produced 3 seasons with a 3+ war / and 16 seasons with a WAR of 1.7 or less. The average after the first year was 1.27 WAR.

 

You also used Arietta as an example of a good strategy. $25M on a 2 WAR pitcher is not only a bad strategy is self-defeating. The relevance of Charlie Morton was that he produced an additional 1.2 for $11M less which would pay for a premier BP arm which collectively is a much better strategy to produce wins. If we max the budget we would have roughly $60M to spend. Producing 5 WAR, assuming the 5th spot in the rotation is replacement level (Mejia is better than replacement level) is a very bad strategy.

 

I just assumed you would defend the strategy you have been adamant about. Is an average of 1.27 WAR a practice we should follow. Did free agent SPs perform better past year 1 in a different period. 

 

It's not just you, Mike. Lots of people here insist we should makes these moves ready or not because it's been a long time since we have been good. I did not go back all that far but the hard facts seem very clear that free agent SP contracts have been bad after the 1st year and horrible the last 2-3 years. I serious doubt we have heard the last of "I am tired of waiting" yet not a single defense of this strategy.

 

How have the AAA players they've relied on worked out? Never adding long term assets means every year you have 5-7 holes filled with AAAA players, or 1 year deal guys, over and over. It's how you have sustained lack of success for almost the entire last decade. 

 

Did you hate the Castro signing, which is the kind of signing I'm mostly asking for?

[Major League Ready]

 

How have the AAA players they've relied on worked out? Never adding long term assets means every year you have 5-7 holes filled with AAAA players, or 1 year deal guys, over and over. It's how you have sustained lack of success for almost the entire last decade. 

 

Did you hate the Castro signing, which is the kind of signing I'm mostly asking for?

 

You keep going back to the AAA example which is of very little relevance. ho you used as an example is behind Mejia who is a decent #5. He is also behind Steward and Gonsalves. They won't be resorting to AAAA SPS.

 

You keep harping on the 1 year deal thing. How many times do I have to point out there was one deal last year that was actually a one year deal and it certainly was not the utter disaster Darvish or Lynn would have been.

 

Why won't you address the relative ineffectiveness of free agents SPs on 4-5 year deals after the 1st year. You have insisted this is a must. Are you willing to address this fact or not. 

[Mike Sixel]

I have literally admitted that it doesn't always work, and pointed out over and over that I'm not talking only about pitching. Not sure what more you want. None of which you've acknowledged.

 

And sure, this year, after a decade of terrible pitching, the depth of ok pitchers looks better. Of course, three fifths of the starters leave after this year....

[Danchat]

How have the AAA players they've relied on worked out? Never adding long term assets means every year you have 5-7 holes filled with AAAA players, or 1 year deal guys, over and over. It's how you have sustained lack of success for almost the entire last decade.

 

Did you hate the Castro signing, which is the kind of signing I'm mostly asking for?

I believe the lack of converting prospects into quality players is a separate issue that has harmed this team. The Twins should be able to rely on some of their AAA/minors players panning out, but the past 3-4 years almost all of them have flunked. Look at the relievers - Tonkin, Busenitz, Chargois, Curtiss, Duffey, Rosario... all failed or given up on too early. The Hicks trade was a great example... the Twins bungled his development and traded him when his stock was high, got a decent catcher back who immediately melted down upon reaching Minnesota. IMO it’s not mostly due to lack of talent.

 

Other teams can rely on some of their prospects turning out, but the Twins can’t. Until they can, I don’t think it matters all that much what they do in free agency. Yes, they have the money to sign some guys (they need relievers badly) but I don’t see this team doing anything until the broken development system is fixed.

[Battle ur tail off]

Curious why the Twins didn't take a more serious run at Ramos? He signed for fairly cheap and only on a 3 year deal. With the catching situation here, I'm not sure why they wouldn't make a run at him?

 

Injuries? Faith in the terrible Castro? Think Garver or Astudillo is the answer?

[USAFChief]

 

I believe the lack of converting prospects into quality players is a separate issue that has harmed this team. The Twins should be able to rely on some of their AAA/minors players panning out, but the past 3-4 years almost all of them have flunked. Look at the relievers - Tonkin, Busenitz, Chargois, Curtiss, Duffey, Rosario... all failed or given up on too early. The Hicks trade was a great example... the Twins bungled his development and traded him when his stock was high, got a decent catcher back who immediately melted down upon reaching Minnesota. IMO it’s not mostly due to lack of talent.

Other teams can rely on some of their prospects turning out, but the Twins can’t. Until they can, I don’t think it matters all that much what they do in free agency. Yes, they have the money to sign some guys (they need relievers badly) but I don’t see this team doing anything until the broken development system is fixed.

Huh?

 

The Twins sold low...very very low...on Hicks. 

 

They most certainly did NOT get "a decent catcher" back.

 

They literally got zero. 

[Battle ur tail off]

They did sell extremely low on Hicks and got back a catcher New York's front office and scouting department or whoever, knew wasn't any good. They fleeced us. Right as the guy was playing decent for us and ready to break out they dumped him for nothing at all. Same thing they did with David Ortiz.

 

Imagine having Hicks in our outfield and hitting towards the top of the order right now! If they were going to trade him, it should have been as part of a package when he was coming through the minors. 

[Riverbrian]

I believe the lack of converting prospects into quality players is a separate issue that has harmed this team. The Twins should be able to rely on some of their AAA/minors players panning out, but the past 3-4 years almost all of them have flunked. Look at the relievers - Tonkin, Busenitz, Chargois, Curtiss, Duffey, Rosario... all failed or given up on too early. The Hicks trade was a great example... the Twins bungled his development and traded him when his stock was high, got a decent catcher back who immediately melted down upon reaching Minnesota. IMO it’s not mostly due to lack of talent.

 

Other teams can rely on some of their prospects turning out, but the Twins can’t. Until they can, I don’t think it matters all that much what they do in free agency. Yes, they have the money to sign some guys (they need relievers badly) but I don’t see this team doing anything until the broken development system is fixed.

Yep

 

I’m asking the question a lot. Where is/are our superstar/superstars. If we wanted to rebuild (which we didn't) where is/was our player who can/could stock the shelves.

 

Its a fair question.

[howieramone2]

 

Curious why the Twins didn't take a more serious run at Ramos? He signed for fairly cheap and only on a 3 year deal. With the catching situation here, I'm not sure why they wouldn't make a run at him?

 

Injuries? Faith in the terrible Castro? Think Garver or Astudillo is the answer?

Because we're fine at catcher. Entering last season, Castro caught the 2nd most innings of any catcher since 2013. I was also pleasantly surprised with Garver. 

[howieramone2]

 

They did sell extremely low on Hicks and got back a catcher New York's front office and scouting department or whoever, knew wasn't any good. They fleeced us. Right as the guy was playing decent for us and ready to break out they dumped him for nothing at all. Same thing they did with David Ortiz.

 

Imagine having Hicks in our outfield and hitting towards the top of the order right now! If they were going to trade him, it should have been as part of a package when he was coming through the minors. 

If the Yankees knew he wasn't any good why did he spend parts of 3 seasons with them? Hicks didn't break out until he was almost 28. Did you know David Ortiz was 15 years ago? Seems like just yesterday doesn't it.

[Danchat]

 

Huh?

 

The Twins sold low...very very low...on Hicks. 

 

They most certainly did NOT get "a decent catcher" back.

 

They literally got zero. 

Sure, now that we have the benefit of hindsight, it appeared that we sold low on him. However, I remember many here at the time of the trade were calling it a "sell high" trade because they thought Hicks was a bust. At one point he almost gave up being a switch hitter, had some success in the second half of 2015, and heck, after his awful 2016 season in New York, it sure looked like they had. 

 

Just for reference:

Hicks 2013-2014 (538 PAs) .201/.293/.313 .606 OPS

Hicks 2015 First Half (May-Mid July) .259/.327/.361 .688 OPS

Hicks 2015 Second Half (rest of 2015) .254/.320/.424 .744 OPS

Hicks 2016 .217/.281/.336 .617 OPS

 

I can see why people made the argument about selling high at the time... but not very high.

 

I called Murphy a "decent" catcher because he should have been. He was/is a great defensive catcher, but upon arriving with the Twins, his bat imploded and he forgot how to hit. He should have at least been the Twins' backup catcher for a few years, but they didn't even get that.

[Mr. Brooks]

Because we're fine at catcher. Entering last season, Castro caught the 2nd most innings of any catcher since 2013. I was also pleasantly surprised with Garver.

It looks like you spelled pie in the sky wrong.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

They did sell extremely low on Hicks and got back a catcher New York's front office and scouting department or whoever, knew wasn't any good. They fleeced us. Right as the guy was playing decent for us and ready to break out they dumped him for nothing at all. Same thing they did with David Ortiz.

 

Imagine having Hicks in our outfield and hitting towards the top of the order right now! If they were going to trade him, it should have been as part of a package when he was coming through the minors.

yup they sure did fleece Ryan, and that trade scenario is a strategy employed by front offices. Trading away flawed prospects before word gets out.

 

In the other thread about where to find more talent, it was pointed out that Ryan hardly ever traded. If you dont trade and can’t develop players, your only choice is free agency. Woof!

[USAFChief]

Sure, now that we have the benefit of hindsight, it appeared that we sold low on him. However, I remember many here at the time of the trade were calling it a "sell high" trade because they thought Hicks was a bust. At one point he almost gave up being a switch hitter, had some success in the second half of 2015, and heck, after his awful 2016 season in New York, it sure looked like they had.

 

Just for reference:

Hicks 2013-2014 (538 PAs) .201/.293/.313 .606 OPS

Hicks 2015 First Half (May-Mid July) .259/.327/.361 .688 OPS

Hicks 2015 Second Half (rest of 2015) .254/.320/.424 .744 OPS

Hicks 2016 .217/.281/.336 .617 OPS

 

I can see why people made the argument about selling high at the time... but not very high.

 

I called Murphy a "decent" catcher because he should have been. He was/is a great defensive catcher, but upon arriving with the Twins, his bat imploded and he forgot how to hit. He should have at least been the Twins' backup catcher for a few years, but they didn't even get that.

It is unfair and inaccurate to characterize opposition to the Hicks trade as hindsight. There were certainly supporters of the trade.

 

Howver, Many of us screamed bloody murder at the time. It is pretty much always wrong to give up the more talented player in a trade, and there was no question Hicks was, is, and always would be the more talented player, by far.

[Riverbrian]

 

Sure, now that we have the benefit of hindsight, it appeared that we sold low on him. However, I remember many here at the time of the trade were calling it a "sell high" trade because they thought Hicks was a bust. At one point he almost gave up being a switch hitter, had some success in the second half of 2015, and heck, after his awful 2016 season in New York, it sure looked like they had. 

 

Just for reference:

Hicks 2013-2014 (538 PAs) .201/.293/.313 .606 OPS

Hicks 2015 First Half (May-Mid July) .259/.327/.361 .688 OPS

Hicks 2015 Second Half (rest of 2015) .254/.320/.424 .744 OPS

Hicks 2016 .217/.281/.336 .617 OPS

 

I can see why people made the argument about selling high at the time... but not very high.

 

I called Murphy a "decent" catcher because he should have been. He was/is a great defensive catcher, but upon arriving with the Twins, his bat imploded and he forgot how to hit. He should have at least been the Twins' backup catcher for a few years, but they didn't even get that.

 

I remember there being quite a discussion between the two sides and there were two sides. 

 

I know because Chief and I were on one side. 

 

I stand here with hindsight, foresight, and just plain ole' sight. In my opinion, the trade was terrible at the time it happened and has advanced to gruesomely painful as of December 21, 2018. 

 

We traded a 5 tool player who was just starting to figure it out for a one tool position scarcity overpay catcher. 

 

Our track record with these 5 tool CF's is beyond gruesomely painful. 

 

Aaron Hicks should be in a General Managers pamphlet explaining how to get absolutely no value from your 1st round pick.

 

The Twins rushed him to the big leagues before he was ready... gave him the starting CF job with no safety net for 3 years straight and he looked completely lost at the plate in the process.

 

and then when he finally started to produce... and you could even see that he wasn't looking lost at the plate like before. They trade a 20/20 maybe 30/30 potential player for a catcher that could maybe hit 10 home runs if everything went perfect. 

 

And then they hand the CF job to a younger Byron Buxton, rushing him to the big leagues with no safety net for 3 years straight and he looks completely lost at the plate in the process.  

 

Make the same mistakes over and over again.  

 

And before that... Carlos Gomez was another example of rushing with no patience. 

 

How many times can we repeat the same mistake over and over again has become a legitimate question. 

 

Yeah... I was against the trade... still am. Kinda pissed about it actually. Then and Now. 

 

 

 

 

[bird]

"Imagine having Hicks in our outfield and hitting towards the top of the order right now! If they were going to trade him, it should have been as part of a package when he was coming through the minors. "

 

Aaron Hicks and Wilson Ramos are perfect examples as to why you don't sell other than from surplus even when surplus is not in surplus. Don't create a hole to fill a hole, and that includes having no Plan B's.

 

Trading Gibson is a bad bad bad idea until two other pitchers are in place who can give you occasional stretches of #2 performance like he has done.