Article: Twins Sign 2B Jonathan Schoop

[howieramone2]

 

Kinda feels like a Terry Ryan signing... 

When I think of a TR signing, I always think of Sano, Kepler, Polanco, Buxton, Berrios, Santana, etc. How about you?

[ashbury]

Mercenaries poisoning the well last season? I completely missed that. Feel they should block Lewis for a season or so?

Thad Levine had an extended interview with Aaron Gleeman. Probably what you're seeing is in reference to quotations like these excerpts:

 

One thing that I look myself in the mirror on and say that I’m very responsible for one of the downfalls in the [2018] season is putting too many guys into one clubhouse that had expiring contracts. You aspire to have chemistry in the clubhouse ... one thing I can say, a year later, is when you have a lot of guys whose contracts are expiring, some of whom were casualties of a very unique free agent market this past offseason—Lance Lynn ended up having a much smaller market than expected, and Logan Morrison, the same—you bring those guys in, great guys in their own rights, but they had a negative experience in the free agent market. Now they’re here for one year, with the chance of going back onto that free agent market a year later, and I think you’re creating more of a clubhouse of mercenaries who are just trying to survive and rectify their own careers, rather than a group of men coming together with one galvanized goal of trying to win a championship. I think that’s a sticky element that we’ll go into this offseason having learned.

 

No GM is going to spell things out regarding clubhouse chemistry, particularly as pertains to individuals, but these words come as close as possible to laying it out.

[howieramone2]

 

A better question is if the Twins don’t plan to be competitive in 2019, why wasn’t Gibson dealt at the deadline? He would have brought in at least one blue chip prospect as opposed to the roster of project prospects they in fact acquired.


The lack of a clear, cohesive, consistent direction by this FO remains concerning.

But the Twins are planning on being competitive. It's still very early in free agency, but the direction to this point is clear, cohesive, and consistent. Keep watching, the night is still young.

[USAFChief]

When I think of a TR signing, I always think of Sano, Kepler, Polanco, Buxton, Berrios, Santana, etc. How about you?

Off the top of my head, when I think of Sano, Kepler and Polanco, I think of Bill Smith.

[AlwaysinModeration]

Off the top of my head, when I think of Sano, Kepler and Polanco, I think of Bill Smith.

Does TR get credit for drafting Buxton and Berrios?

 

And also for the Rule 5 Santana signing?

[bird]

 

Off the top of my head, when I think of Sano, Kepler and Polanco, I think of Bill Smith.

 

Does TR get credit for drafting Buxton and Berrios?

And also for the Rule 5 Santana signing?

 

Here we go again.

 

When I think of any of these players, I don't think of Smith or Ryan, because they had less to do with the whole process than people want to accept. They virtually played replacement level roles, and that includes the process of negotiating with Sano's agent, which people falsely describe as this heroic, bold move by Smith. Ironically, both men deserve massive credit for other things, but not for acting as the spearhead in any of those signings.

 

Hmmm. Maybe I'm repeating myself. Oh well.

 

[bird]

 

When I think of a TR signing, I always think of Sano, Kepler, Polanco, Buxton, Berrios, Santana, etc. How about you?

 

 

You too, howie. 

[h2oface]

 

I think that if the Twins had traded for Schoop after the 2017 season, nobody would have hated that deal.

 

 

....but after the 2018 season, they certainly wouldn't have wanted to resign him and for me, it would be added to the failure of free agents picked by the FO so far. How about you? If his 2018 season had been for the Twins... would you then want to resign him?

Edited December 8, 2018 by h2oface

[h2oface]

 

Off the top of my head, when I think of Sano, Kepler and Polanco, I think of Bill Smith.

 

But wasn't Bill Smith just Terry Ryan in a Bill Smith costume?

[Mr. Brooks]

Here we go again.

 

When I think of any of these players, I don't think of Smith or Ryan, because they had less to do with the whole process than people want to accept. They virtually played replacement level roles, and that includes the process of negotiating with Sano's agent, which people falsely describe as this heroic, bold move by Smith. Ironically, both men deserve massive credit for other things, but not for acting as the spearhead in any of those signings.

 

Hmmm. Maybe I'm repeating myself. Oh well.

Bosses are responsible for the productivity of those working under them.

 

I doubt Steve Jobs was personally on the line in the factory assembling iPhones, but nevertheless it was going to be his credit/blame if it prospered or failed. As it should be.

[Monkeypaws]

 

To me, Daniel Murphy is the only clear upgrade over Schoop. And 1)I’m not sure Murphy would be a regular at 2B, and 2)they could still sign him (2b/1B/DH). Of course, he’s more expensive than Schoop, and that extra money could go towards relievers, for example.

And the ever present question...why would he come to this team? Money is not a consideration for him.

 

Winning is. Top end free agents are rich beyond belief. They want rings, honors. 

 

People alway look at deals in retrospect and say, "why didn't we do that?" 

 

Well, the Twins are 3% of all the MLB teams. Other teams are trying just as hard. 

 

Free agents are looking at more than "pay me biggest money ever."

 

And other organizations have tempting prospects as well, who sometimes match up better in trades.

 

Tunnelvision....

 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Monkeypaws

[Otto von Ballpark]

Thad Levine had an extended interview with Aaron Gleeman. Probably what you're seeing is in reference to quotations like these excerpts:

 

 

No GM is going to spell things out regarding clubhouse chemistry, particularly as pertains to individuals, but these words come as close as possible to laying it out.

Thanks for sharing, I hadn't seen that. (Although I had heard earlier speculation.)

 

I wonder how true it is, or how much Levine might simply be embracing an excuse that's a bit of a deflection of his own responsibilities. (Obviously he assembled the roster, but saying they struggled because of chemistry is a bit gentler than other GM job analysis.)

 

Also, FWIW, only Lynn and Duke were acquired as strictly one-year "mercenaries" last winter. Odorizzi had 2 years control through arb, Reed a 2 year guarantee, and Morrison and Rodney 2 years through team options.

 

And as far as current players who were "mercenaries" on expiring contracts, it was only Dozier, Escobar, and Mauer. (Erv had a team option too.) I doubt Mauer could be considered "mercenary" in any context, and by all accounts Escobar was beloved and offered an extension.

 

So this "mercenary" line of thinking seems like a convenient way of laying outsized blame on primarily two guys, Lynn and Dozier, when they're already out the door. Neither was great for the Twins in 2018, but this probably exaggerates their roles in our scuffles.

 

Edit to add: And of course, this offseason so far, they have added a 2 year guy in Cron and another 1 year mercenary in Schoop. And I guess by the earlier definition, Reed and Odorizzi join the expiring contract "mercenary" club, along with Gibson and Castro.

Edited December 9, 2018 by spycake

[bird]

 

Bosses are responsible for the productivity of those working under them.

I doubt Steve Jobs was personally on the line in the factory assembling iPhones, but nevertheless it was going to be his credit/blame if it prospered or failed. As it should be.

 

True, and this is my point. No one described Jobs as the guy who single-handedly wrote the code for the Mac. According to some legends, Billy Smith swam to the Dominican Republic, scoured the backroads, discovered the young, frail Miguel, handed him his first bat, and then coached and mentored him. Which actually has equal truth to the rest of the legend, which is that he single-handedly convinced Sano's handler to trust the organization and then negotiated his contract from start to finish as the kid's only champion and as the only one who recommended the organization pony up that dough. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by birdwatcher

[USAFChief]

True, and this is my point. No one described Jobs as the guy who single-handedly wrote the code for the Mac. According to some legends, Billy Smith swam to the Dominican Republic, scoured the backroads, discovered the young, frail Miguel, handed him his first bat, and then coached and mentored him. Which actually has equal truth to the rest of the legend, which is that he single-handedly convinced Sano's handler to trust the organization and then negotiated his contract from start to finish as the kid's only champion and as the only one who recommended the organization pony up that dough.

I dont think anyone has made that claim.

 

But I think I'm on fairly firm ground in stating Bill Smith had the final authority in signing Sano.

 

He was the GM.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

True, and this is my point. No one described Jobs as the guy who single-handedly wrote the code for the Mac. According to some legends, Billy Smith swam to the Dominican Republic, scoured the backroads, discovered the young, frail Miguel, handed him his first bat, and then coached and mentored him. Which actually has equal truth to the rest of the legend, which is that he single-handedly convinced Sano's handler to trust the organization and then negotiated his contract from start to finish as the kid's only champion and as the only one who recommended the organization pony up that dough. 

If I recall, the guy representing Pittsburgh rep was working against Sano's interests behind the scenes, planting doubt about Sano's age, to scare off the rest of the MLB team reps. All while telling Sano he was his champion to his face. But the Twins and one other team stuck with Sano the whole way as Sano lost trust in signing with Pittsburgh.

[jorgenswest]

I wonder if there is any other place to discuss the stuff that happened before 2019 or maybe we need to start a discussion group called 2019 Minnesota Twins Talk.

 

Looking forward I think Schoop will help the 2019 team. Additionally, I think at least one of Gordon, Arraez or Lewis will be ready in 2020. In the best case, Schoop does well and wants to stay to the tune of a contract similar to the one Escobar received from the DBacks.

 

The void is a good left handed bat with both power and on base ability that will slot in at DH and play a little of a corner spot.

[bird]

 

Thanks for sharing, I hadn't seen that. (Although I had heard earlier speculation.)

I wonder how true it is, or how much Levine might simply be embracing an excuse that's a bit of a deflection of his own responsibilities. (Obviously he assembled the roster, but saying they struggled because of chemistry is a bit gentler than other GM job analysis.)

Also, FWIW, only Lynn and Duke were acquired as strictly one-year "mercenaries" last winter. Odorizzi had 2 years control through arb, Reed a 2 year guarantee, and Morrison and Rodney 2 years through team options.

And as far as current players who were "mercenaries" on expiring contracts, it was only Dozier, Escobar, and Mauer. (Erv had a team option too.) I doubt Mauer could be considered "mercenary" in any context, and by all accounts Escobar was beloved and offered an extension.

So this "mercenary" line of thinking seems like a convenient way of laying outsized blame on primarily two guys, Lynn and Dozier, when they're already out the door. Neither was great for the Twins in 2018, but this probably exaggerates their roles in our scuffles.

Edit to add: And of course, this offseason so far, they have added a 2 year guy in Cron and another 1 year mercenary in Schoop. And I guess by the earlier definition, Reed and Odorizzi join the expiring contract "mercenary" club, along with Gibson and Castro.

 

 

My own read on this, spy, is not that Levine was deflecting their own part in it but simply acknowledging that they had more than one new guy that came in feeling victimized and therefore had a sour disposition towards being here. And that this was their mistake. He of course isn't going to name names. I can't cite specifics, but I got the impression that both Lynn and Morrison came in with a bit of a reputation for having "quirky" personalities, and it became evident, to me anyway, that Dozier was resentful underneath all his happy talk. Erv might come across as happy-go-lucky and a good team player, but he was selfish in the past, so I don't trust any characterization of him as a good clubhouse guy.

 

I don't concern myself with the whole "mercenary" thing. To me, the question is about feeling good about opportunity versus feeling victimized at having to settle for the better of a two crappy choices like Lynn and Morrison might have done.

Edited December 9, 2018 by birdwatcher

[ewen21]

 

I can't cite specifics, but I got the impression that both Lynn and Morrison came in with a bit of a reputation for having "quirky" personalities, and it became evident, to me anyway, that Dozier was resentful underneath all his happy talk. Erv might come across as happy-go-lucky and a good team player, but he was selfish in the past, so I don't trust any characterization of him as a good clubhouse guy.

 

 

As a person who follows this team daily and obsessively, I have drawn similar conclusions about these players.  The idea that no one can draw these types of conclusions that "questions a player's character" has been repeated here many times.  I do not understand it all.  We have all observed and read everything we can about these guys.  How is it that NOTHING can be gleaned from it?  

[TheLeviathan]

 

I dont think anyone has made that claim.
 

 

Well said.  Honestly....that argument is so tiresome.  People refer to the actions under a GM as short-hand.  Trying to dissect that to make a silly point is so...damn...tiresome.

 

Every single transaction a GM makes has layers of underlings deeply involved.  Just let posters make short-hand comments without trying to start a thing every time.  (Especially since we only seem to see this when the name Bill Smith appears)

 

Schoop might have been the brainchild of some scout or the hitting coach or someone other than Levine.  But, good or bad, we'll assign the responsibility to Levine.  

Edited December 9, 2018 by TheLeviathan

[ashbury]

Thanks for sharing, I hadn't seen that. (Although I had heard earlier speculation.)

 

I wonder how true it is, or how much Levine might simply be embracing an excuse that's a bit of a deflection of his own responsibilities....

Whether his view is insightful or not, I don't think it was a very smart line of discussion to take in a public way, on various levels. Throwing anyone under the bus seems to violate Public Relations 101. Don't name names. Don't use terms like mercenary. Don't burn bridges. Just say roster construction is not an exact science, and move on. I know our GM is considered a whiz kid but he's 47 - I expected better sense than that. And it's not even a useful angle, because 1-year/expiring contracts are a necessary part of most plans anyway; the 2018 Red Sox had a few and it didn't visibly hurt them - and as you pointed out, we just acquired one.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Levine's candidness is appreciated by some of us who were stunned and caught completely off guard by one of the signings in particular. There must have been people in the org waving the red flag but they went ahead anyway. So there's some vindication there at least.

 

On the other hand, Schoop seems like a pretty good guy and student of the game (other than his playing Robin to Machado's Batman in Baltimore).

[Linus]

I would much rather have signed a true SS and moved Polanco to 2nd.

[Aerodeliria]

I agree with Nick here. I don't hate the signing but I think that the Twins really need a player in the heart of the lineup who will happily take BBs.

[ashbury]

I agree with Nick here. I don't hate the signing but I think that the Twins really need a player in the heart of the lineup who will happily take BBs.

Hopefully someone also with thick skin for criticism of not being teh clutchyness or whatever.

[Doomtints]

Schoop = Vargas. Except Vargas might be better if given a real chance.

 

The Twins are really weird sometimes.

[USAFChief]

 

Schoop = Vargas. Except Vargas might be better if given a real chance.

 

The Twins are really weird sometimes.

I think what would be weird is if the Twins played Vargas at 2b.

[Doomtints]

 

I think what would be weird is if the Twins played Vargas at 2b.

 

Hey now, let's not split hairs.

[bird]

 

Well said.  Honestly....that argument is so tiresome.  People refer to the actions under a GM as short-hand.  Trying to dissect that to make a silly point is so...damn...tiresome.

 

Every single transaction a GM makes has layers of underlings deeply involved.  Just let posters make short-hand comments without trying to start a thing every time.  (Especially since we only seem to see this when the name Bill Smith appears)

 

Schoop might have been the brainchild of some scout or the hitting coach or someone other than Levine.  But, good or bad, we'll assign the responsibility to Levine.  

 

 

If every single transaction a GM makes has layers of underlings deeply involved, then why do we constantly have these claims that so very blatantly pinpoint credit and blame on one person and much more incredulously, state with complete conviction that one GM did something another would not?

 

THAT, Levi, is the silly point that is so...damn...tiresome.

 

People want to believe that Smith did much more than he actually did to snag Sano. They mischaracterize his role. Usually for the purpose of disparagement of Ryan of course. I'm as tired of hearing that inaccurate garbage with no mention ever of Guerrero's role for example, a role which included negotiating and agreeing to the financial parameters of a contract, as others might be of hearing me call bull. 

 

Give Billy Smith credit for the things he actually did. I have, and very few others have done the same. And criticize Ryan, if you still have to, for his REAL mistakes and failings, not fake ones. 

 

There. Now I'm done.

Edited January 3, 2019 by birdwatcher

[bird]

 

I dont think anyone has made that claim.

But I think I'm on fairly firm ground in stating Bill Smith had the final authority in signing Sano.

He was the GM.

 

You know I was being facetious. Billy Smith is a crappy swimmer.

 

Smith, BTW did not in fact have the final authority to sign Sano. This decision required approval from above.

 

Smith was the GM of course.My tiresome argument has been consistently based on the distinctions among roles, titles, and authority and I think people have been quick to disparage, quick to attribute credit.

[Doomtints]

My first reaction to anything is to be skeptical. I want to know details. Some people view this as disparaging. It isn't.

 

Do I think Falvey and Levine are doing good jobs? I think they are trying. I think they are working harder than the last guy did. As for Smith, I think he did mostly a good job. True leadership is how one reacts when things go bad, not when things are going well. The Twins never gave Smith the chance and Ryan's reaction was to roll the team back to 1996 and then disappear for 50 weeks out of the year. Smith certainly cared about the team more than that!

 

People were generally very happy when Smith was canned. History should caution us to be careful what we wish for on that one.

 

As for the idea of being too critical of leadership and ignoring the work put in by those under their supervision -- that's life, man. The guys at the top get paid a lot, they're the faces of the organization, and ultimately the buck stops with them. They are responsible. If someone beneath them screwed up, it's on the person at the top to address it. And, yes, the person at the top gets all the credit when things are going well.

 

Until the people at the top of the Twins organization fix the very obvious communication with players problem it won't matter who they sign, the team will flounder in mediocrity. They keep trying to sign a new Torii Hunter every year instead of doing this organically by themselves.

Edited January 3, 2019 by Doomtints