Article: Twins Sign 2B Jonathan Schoop

[jorgenswest]

I like both deals and I think it shows they believe in the young middle infielders for the near future.

 

I hope they are pursuing a bat that can hit right handed pitching for DH/1B.

[Otwins]

Does Torreyes take a 40 man roster spot? It says he signed a split contract?  

[Riverbrian]

Dear Mr. Rowson,

 

Head over to the film room and take a look at Schoop in 2017 and Schoop in Milwaukee last year. Do a compare and contrast. Figure out what he was doing in 2017 and began working with him during training camp. If you have trouble finding issues to point at... contact Parker at Twinsdaily for assistance. 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Riverbrian

 

 

 

 

[Dman]

I am surprised.  It feels like the FO is waiting for 2020 or at least depending on young guys being ready to step up next year instead of going with more vets.  Although I can see Schoop as rebound candidate having him fro just one year kind of stinks and he isn't the type of player I was hoping they would get.  I have to say I am a little disappointed.

 

I guess the plan is that the young players we have are going to break out and we are going to try and sign them to long term contracts?  Not sure why else they seem not eager to spend.

[Thrylos]

 

Dear Mr. Rowson,

 

Head over to the film room and take a look at Schoop in 2017 and Schoop in Milwaukee last year. Do a compare and contrast. Figure out what he was doing in 2017 and began working with him during training camp. If you have trouble finding issues to point at... contact Parker at Twinsdaily for assistance. 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Riverbrian

 

 

That's an easy thing:

 

He had an oblique strain on April 14th.  An injury that takes 6 weeks to heal.  In less than 3 weeks they sent him to a rehab assignment in Bowie, and was back to the majors the next week after AA and AAA stops.

Donuts to dollars he played hurt last season.

[FargoFanMan]

In a vacuum, a fine deal and the type of deal teams like the Twins need to make (and succeed at) to thrive.

 

But I'm getting sick and tired of "fine" deals. This team has a truckload of money and they need to spend some of it on players who are more "guaranteed" than "upside if things go right".

Agreed. I’m so sick of these deals. Looks like we’re riding on Buxton and Sano to have mvp years. Even if they did we don’t have enough to compete. Maybe more will happen but I’m not counting on it. We’ll just wait until Lewis and Kirilloff come up as they will be the saviors. Then we’ll wait 5 years for them to develop only to be busts. In that time we’ll have had a few more top 5 picks. Wait for them to come up only to be busts. Maybe one or two of these guys pan out but nothing that would constitute a solid core and before we know it we’re the Royals or Pirates from the 90’s to the 2000’s. Call me in 30 years when this team is good again. Jeez. When are we gonna try to go for something. I’d rather have a good year or two and then a few bad instead of waiting for these prospects. All I hear about is prospects. When are we gonna have real Mlb ball players? That’s what I want. I want to have a reason to watch a twins game. We waited for how long for the current group? How’s that going? I hope they prove me wrong. I’m taking the opinion the rest of the country has always had. That being the Twins are and always will be a joke and will not accomplish anything until they start putting Mlb players on the field instead of prospects.

[AlwaysinModeration]

Here are career stats:

 

Dozier: 246/324/444, 31 years old

Schoop: 258/294/444, 27 years old

 

Schoop hits for a bit better average, Dozier gets on base a decent amount more, they have the same exact power, and Schoop is four years younger. I’ll take the guy going into his 27 year old season for a one year $7.5mm year deal, sounds good to me.

[chpettit19]

A lot of people talking about making signings "that help for the future" around here. Most free agents that hit the market have already hit their peak and are getting paid for what they've already done while the contract covers their decline years. I know it's frustrating that the Twins have such a small payroll compared to other clubs, but that's the reality and it just needs to be accepted. With that being the case the Twins will very likely never be in the running for "big time" free agents. Would Machado and Harper fit as signings that "help for the future?" In terms of talent you'd assume they are top 10-15 players in MLB for the next 5 or 6 years, and that'd be great to see in a Twins uniform. But the last 4-5 years while they decline their contracts would kill the payroll (nobody enjoyed watching Mauer decline while he got paid 20% of their payroll). 

 

The Twins, and other teams with similar payrolls, need to build through drafting and developing. That's what has killed this team, not lack of huge FA signings (Darvish would've killed us for the next 5 years had we signed that deal). So, yes, they are waiting for Sano and Buxton to figure things out, or for Lewis and Kiriloff to reach the majors and become superstars. Then they'll be waiting for the next prospects to arrive while trading off the guys who are about to get expensive to reload with even more prospects. That's the reality of it. This team can't "buy wins." These types of deals are the ones they have to make. Is it frustrating? Sure is. But that's the life of a low to mid payroll team. 

 

Everyone wants to sign the long term deals, but then when they do and they don't turn out they're mad at that. Do I think this FO is coming in and saving the Twins and turning them into perenial contenders? Not yet. But there's a lot of people on here who make it so there's no way the FO can win unless they nail all of their signings perfectly. It's fun to dream on being able to sign the superstars in their mid 20s to long term FA deals, but that's not the reality of this team.

[gunnarthor]

 

 

 

I guess the plan is that the young players we have are going to break out and we are going to try and sign them to long term contracts?  Not sure why else they seem not eager to spend.

My fear is that the new FO is waiting for their prospect group to come up and are more or less willing to punt the Sano/Buxton core unless the players force their hand.

[Mr. Brooks]

I for one really like this signing. It's the type of buy low, high ceiling type of signing that I always wanted Ryan to try more of.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Per MLBTradeRumors: Ronald Torreyes coming to the Land of 10,000 Strikeouts as well.

 

https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2018/12/twins-ronald-torreyes-agree-to-one-year-deal.html

FTFY

[AlwaysinModeration]

Career stats:

 

Dozier: 246/324/444, 31 years old

($9mm in 2018)

Schoop: 258/294/444, 27 years old (1yr/$7.5mm for 2019)

Escobar: 257/308/417, 30 years old (3yrs/$20mm for 2019-2021)

Murphy: 299/344/458, 34 years old

($17.5mm in 2018)

 

I’d rather have Schoop that Dozier for 2019. Schoop is better than Escobar, especially for his 27year season instead of three years of Escobar’s 30s. Murphy is better, and will be a lot more expensive. The big key there is whether Murphy is actually able to play second. I think he would be a fine signing for a LH bat at 1B/DH, with maybe some games at 2B.

Edited December 7, 2018 by AlwaysinModeration

[Thrylos]

 

I for one really like this signing. It's the type of buy low, high ceiling type of signing that I always wanted Ryan to try more of.

 

Agreed about Ryan, but this is not quite a buy "low" signing. 

 

Other than the arbitration yet to be determined guys, Schoop's salary without incentives is the 4th highest in this team and depending on the incentives might be the highest...

 

Just sayin'

[Riverbrian]

 

That's an easy thing:

 

He had an oblique strain on April 14th.  An injury that takes 6 weeks to heal.  In less than 3 weeks they sent him to a rehab assignment in Bowie, and was back to the majors the next week after AA and AAA stops.

Donuts to dollars he played hurt last season.

 

Awesome... Thank you for responding back Mr. Rowson. 

[sdangus]

I like this. He's definitely playable because of the defense and the power. There is room for tremendous upside if he returns to 2017 form, which may be a good bet if he was indeed playing with an injury last season. If it doesn't work, it's only for a year and they move on to Gordon later in the year. If it turns out good he could lead them to the playoffs. And if he has a 2017 season and then walks, he could be a Qualifying offer guy after the season and get the Twins a high draft pick.

All the other 2B candidates come with a lot of warts as well, some of them with a lot more than Schoop.

[DocBauer]

Jonathan Schoop should be like your safety school equivalent to this year's 2B free agent market. He's the guy you have in your back pocket just in case you get rejected by everyone else above him.

 

I'm not necessarily saying this is a bad signing, but I will say that I don't think Schoop fits in real well with the rest of the offense. More than anything, I'm just disappointed (barring something unforeseen) this means the Twins won't be getting Marwin, Lowrie or LeMahieu, all of whom I'd prefer over Schoop. I might have even preferred Asdrubal Cabrera.

 

There are more than a few posts I like, but Tom, I think you nailed most of my thinking.

 

I'm not sold on LeMahieu for many of the debates already discussed. I really liked Gonzalez for overall production and flexibility, and Lowrie for much of the same, including what I felt would probably be a higher OB.

 

But I am doing to echo something AlwaysInModeration posted when he referenced 4 milb seasons for Schoop with an OPS above .780 and a pair at the ML level. You can claim I'm cherry picking, (ignoring his 2014 rookie season), but rough calculating has his combined OPS for 2015-2017 at .793.

 

This brings about the whole discussion again of OB vs OPS. Guys get hurt. Guys have bad season's. Sometimes they are related. Somehow, I missed reading about his injury early in 2018. My biggest disappointment with the signing of Schoop is no second year or team option. Maybe that's what he wanted?

 

Yes, I struggle with the team OB issue at this point. But it's really hard to look at those 3 season's and not feel pretty good about his addition.

[FargoFanMan]

A lot of people talking about making signings "that help for the future" around here. Most free agents that hit the market have already hit their peak and are getting paid for what they've already done while the contract covers their decline years. I know it's frustrating that the Twins have such a small payroll compared to other clubs, but that's the reality and it just needs to be accepted. With that being the case the Twins will very likely never be in the running for "big time" free agents. Would Machado and Harper fit as signings that "help for the future?" In terms of talent you'd assume they are top 10-15 players in MLB for the next 5 or 6 years, and that'd be great to see in a Twins uniform. But the last 4-5 years while they decline their contracts would kill the payroll (nobody enjoyed watching Mauer decline while he got paid 20% of their payroll). 

 

The Twins, and other teams with similar payrolls, need to build through drafting and developing. That's what has killed this team, not lack of huge FA signings (Darvish would've killed us for the next 5 years had we signed that deal). So, yes, they are waiting for Sano and Buxton to figure things out, or for Lewis and Kiriloff to reach the majors and become superstars. Then they'll be waiting for the next prospects to arrive while trading off the guys who are about to get expensive to reload with even more prospects. That's the reality of it. This team can't "buy wins." These types of deals are the ones they have to make. Is it frustrating? Sure is. But that's the life of a low to mid payroll team. 

 

Everyone wants to sign the long term deals, but then when they do and they don't turn out they're mad at that. Do I think this FO is coming in and saving the Twins and turning them into perenial contenders? Not yet. But there's a lot of people on here who make it so there's no way the FO can win unless they nail all of their signings perfectly. It's fun to dream on being able to sign the superstars in their mid 20s to long term FA deals, but that's not the reality of this team.

This is true. Yet where were we on trades? Gerrit Cole could have and was had for very little. Nothing resembling a haul by any means. Carlos Santana was just had for very little and possess a good skill of getting on base. There’s lots of trades that could be made that get a few solid veterans and high upside guys on this team. Add that to a young core. Then add a Schoop signing. I would have preferred LeMahieu but if you add little signings like that with a big move or 2 all of a sudden you have something. All the while you still have Lewis and Kirilloff. Guys like Gonsalves and Thorpe may get traded. But these guys that people around here covet are not guys that move the needle that much compared to a major league asset. Even Graterol and Romero. I’d rather have Cole or any other Major league upgrade than a slim chance of a star in say 4 years. That’s where this franchise got handcuffed in the 2000’s. When we could have traded guys like Gibson or Hicks for legitimate upgrades to push those teams over that threshold to win a championship we played it safe. I would have rather seen a World Series in 2009 or any year they made it than to win a division title 2 years in a row. Like the royals did. They sacrificed the future for a World Series. Yet isn’t that the goal of baseball? To win championships? We keep waiting for the next great wave of prospects. At what point does that become futile

[akmanak]

Terrible signing and proving once again this is the same old Twins that we are used too. Absolutely no changes to the pitching or bullpen staff.

[DocBauer]

I like both deals and I think it shows they believe in the young middle infielders for the near future.

 

A brief comment, but one I think she be held in context and examined closely.

 

Like everyone else, I'm impatient as hell for my beloved Twins to be more relevant than just winning enough to keep hope alive and sneak in to the playoffs. But beyond the FO, and ownership, taking a shot at the various FA additions made last year after the surprise of 2017. (Which was very nice, less we quickly forget the horror of 2016).

 

Since day 1 the FO has spoken about building the organization. Never once have they spoken of quick fixes an instant contention. (As if anyone would, but I've made the point regardless). While not every move may be outstanding, much less a known quantity/quality one at this point, they've had a couple really nice drafts. They've traded expiring contracts/players and used international money to acquire additional player assets to build the system.

 

They have not only been working to ramp up the analytics side of the organization, but have also made quite a few changes in coaches, instructors, and even strength and medical staffing. We also have a new, hopefully, aggressive and intelligent manager and mostly new and inventive ML staff on hand.

 

I'm not a fan of only a 1yr deal here. There is real potential for the 27yo Schoop to have a big comeback. His 2015-17 years can't be ignored. But, I suppose, we could be in the driver's seat of that happens. Gordon does have potential, regardless of how much you like him or not. Arraez was protected for a reason. Even if he's "only" a 2B, guys with his hit tool can't be ignored. And even if a 2019 appearance by Lewis is fantasy, he has already rocketed up the prospect charts as one of the best prospects in baseball.

 

Yes there are several issues to be addressed. But shouldn't there be some context, no matter how impatient and frustrated we may be, that the sky is not falling? That there IS some real talent on hand that will be brought forward to fruition in 2019, including a promotion or two, and augmented with a couple nice acquisitions like this?

 

Now to the bullpen!

[yarnivek1972]

His career is kinda similar to another free agent second baseman that we know welll. But Schoop is 3-4 years younger. Wonder how this will impact the market for the other second basemen.

Edited December 7, 2018 by yarnivek1972

[snap4birds]

Combined with the Cron signing, my impression is the front office is taking half steps.  If things work out & several of Cron, Schoop, Sano, Buxton, Kepler have their "Dr. Jekyll" version early in 2019, this could be a team in contention that makes an upgrade in July, trading some of their prospect depth.  (Sort of assuming that there will be at minimum a bullpen addition or two yet this offseason.)   If most of these guys have their "Mr. Hyde" version in 2019, it will be a selloff at the deadline again.  

 

I can't say I really blame them....when I look at the Twins roster I don't see a lot of 'sure things'.  There are just so many guys that have question marks.  But there are a lot of guys younger than 30.  I think several are going to really excel next year.  If I had to guess, I'd pick the older ones entering their prime years like Schoop, Kepler, etc.  And I think Sano will mash.  But I don't think there are enough established producers that it would make sense to go all in.  Only 6 guys that reached 2 bWAR last year are on the roster right now, and none reached 4.

 

[AceWrigley]

We might end up leading the league in solo homers and strikeouts. Yikes. When did Dave Kingman become the poster child of MLB offense?

[Mike Sixel]

I for one really like this signing. It's the type of buy low, high ceiling type of signing that I always wanted Ryan to try more of.

It's for one year. What does this actually help with?

[h2oface]

 

Here are career stats:

Dozier: 246/324/444, 31 years old
Schoop: 258/294/444, 27 years old

Schoop hits for a bit better average, Dozier gets on base a decent amount more, they have the same exact power, and Schoop is four years younger. I’ll take the guy going into his 27 year old season for a one year $7.5mm year deal, sounds good to me.

 

Career lines are often noted when players are coming off a year of drastic decline. The future doesn't care about career stats, though. The teams that had both of these guys last year..... all 4 of them.... cast them off and don't want them back. The teams and management the most familiar with them. Sure, any player could have a comeback year. Maybe they both will. But I can't not pay attention the the recent trend. Hopefully Schoop will be the first pick up by this front office that really shines. I'm not betting any money on it, though.

[akmanak]

This does nothing to excite me and it is on par with the Twins and how they have been for the last forever seasons regarding FA. They have not helped our pitching at all and continue to put band aids on a damn that has been leaking for sometime.

[AlwaysinModeration]

Career lines are often noted when players are coming off a year of drastic decline. The future doesn't care about career stats, though. The teams that had both of these guys last year..... all 4 of them.... cast them off and don't want them back. The teams and management the most familiar with them. Sure, any player could have a comeback year. Maybe they both will. But I can't not pay attention the the recent trend. Hopefully Schoop will be the first pick up by this front office that really shines. I'm not betting any money on it, though.

Schoop’s batting average on balls in play in 2018 was 261, down from 330 in 2017 and down from his career average of 296.

 

And yes, when a player has a down year, it is in fact very useful to look at his career numbers. This seems like an obvious thing to say, but players usually produce closer to their career numbers than outlier years, especially those skewed by low batting average on balls in play, which is flukey, but over time generally gravitates towards .300.

 

Finally, and again feels somewhat obvious to say, players generally post their peak numbers during their prime age, which is generally, looking at the vast majority of players, during their age 27-29 seasons.

 

Schoop is 27.

 

Incidentally,

Cron is 29.

Garver is 28.

Austin is 27.

Rosario is 27.

Kepler is 26.

Sano is 26.

Polanco is 25.

Buxton is 25.

[ewen21]

 

Kinda feels like a Terry Ryan signing... 

Kinda how?  Can you name a single player he signed at this point in their career arc?  Guys like Jose Offerman, Tony Bautista, Mike Lamb, Craig Monroe, Rondell White, Adam Everett......(let us not forget Jason Bartlet signed to "improve chemistry").  Ryan signed guys on the last stop in their career.  Those are the kinds of guys he signed.  To say Cron and Schoop are "same old Twins" signings is inaccurate and unfair.  While I am not doing cartwheels, I am actually pleased with these signings.  The idea that we need to hand out gigantic contracts and sign guys into their lat3 30's and even 40's are even more ridiculous than the kinds of signings Ryan made.

 

Teams in our own division (with payrolls lower than ours) have made World Series appearances.  It can be done with the right signings.  There seems to be a percentage of Twins fans who want us to do a blockbuster signing just to see the Twins do it.  I am not one of those Twins fans.

[Mr. Brooks]

Agreed about Ryan, but this is not quite a buy "low" signing.

 

Other than the arbitration yet to be determined guys, Schoop's salary without incentives is the 4th highest in this team and depending on the incentives might be the highest...

 

Just sayin'

Where his salary ranks on the roster has nothing to do with whether he was bought low or not.

He's coming off a disastrous season, and was non tendered a year after getting MVP votes. If he were hitting the open market after 2017, he'd get 5+ years and $80+ million. It's absolutely buying low.

[Mr. Brooks]

It's for one year. What does this actually help with?

Winning games in 2019. Flipping him for assets if he has a bounce back and they aren't winning games. Exclusive negotiating window after the season if it's a good fit for both sides. Hopefully competent bridge to Gordon/Arraez/Lewis if one or more are ready by 2020.

[old nurse]

From the where are we now thread there was the report they were looking at the medicals and dollars of 3-4 players. To those curious as to who those players were, they found out 2 of them.

The aged and aging veteran MI available and preferred by many here would be more likely to be looking for security in a contract. Length is security. With Gordon and Lewis coming it is not unreasonable for the front office to look at one year players. A one year player in free agency is going to have a few warts. For Schoop it is a slightly lower than average OBP but he has a higher woba for is career. Woba, if the stat guys are correct, is a little more indicative of runs scoring than OBP Schoop having a bounce back year or better will be adequate at 2b. He likely will not be as good as Murphy or Lowrie, but his contract reflects that. If they use the money to sign back end RP rather than  5th inning players hoping to be back end pitchers the club will be ahead. That was IF.