Article: Where Are The Twins Getting It Wrong?

[thetank2]

What are the Twins minor league pitching prospects. I have followed this forum for 7 or so years rarely posting since the password has issues.

 

I am from St. Louis and what the Cards have done well lately has been churning minor league pitchers. Will this get us back in the playoffs?

 

What are the Twins top minor league pitchers? It looks like that is your biggest issue.

 

Buxton and Sano I remember your top prospects are not producing 1100 plate appearances as one would have thought they would have a couple years ago.

 

I am glad the Cards didn't give Lance Lynn a $100 million contract. Good think you didn't either.

[yarnivek1972]

The drop off on the offensive side is more concerning than pitching. Starting pitching anyway. In terms of ERA, Twins starters went from 19th to 23rd. A lot of that drop is Phil Hughes, early Lance Lynn and the struggles of call ups like Gonsalves, Littel, etc. Berrios, Gibson, Odorizzi and Lynn (since the start of May) have been pretty good. No one will confuse them with Houston or Cleveland’s rotation, but they have been good enough to win games if they had gotten the run support this same team supplied last year.

[ND-Fan]

I would like to say everyone says that Dozier and Escobar would be gone by end of the season that was true. But this front office new that was coming had all of last year and last off season to sign these players to new contracts and nothing was done on that front. Dozier from reports was hoping to be resigned but nothing was done on that front we waited to last moment to trade him basically got nothing for him. Now top that off were going to need to sign a free agent second baseman for the coming year which I bet when we get it done requires at least 2 year contract and will be inferior player to Dozier. If we had signed Dozier to new 3 year contract this past year we would have second base locked down with above average player until Gordon will have arrived. Same scenario goes for Escobar where we need utility fielder and 3 baseman fill in for Sano which would have given us production while we wait on Sano. These players would not held anybody up in minors because we don't have anybody ready in these roles for at least 2 years and giving 3 year contracts would not have effected the Twins signing there young players. This is case the plan was to tare down this club and only keep Sano and Buxton to go along with people they have drafted. I also think plan was to trade Sano for a high level pitching prospect but that plan has kind of fizzled with what's happen to Sano. This front office duo I also believe they are so confident in their abilities on putting a roster together on the cheap they have lost creditability with the players and agents to getting anything done unless like last spring we had where there were unsigned players. But the problem with this what type of club chemistry do have and a lot of the times there were reasons these players were unsigned. 
This Front Office likes to talk about the farm system but I look they should have had a good draft last year with overall number 1 draft pick plus there other high draft picks. But I also see where Terry Ryan's last first round pick is being highly toted prospect for next year also. I look at Terry Ryan's first round draft picks they have been good solid picks Buxton, Berios, and Bard in 2012; Stewart in 2013; Gordon in 2014; Jay in 2015; and Kriloff in 2016. Buxton, Berios and Stewart have reached the majors already for the Twins with some success for the first two. Bard reach majors with the Angels but is back in Twins farm system. The difference for bringing in Falvey was modernize the organization and he was good at developing pitching but so far pitching is still work in progress and time will only tell. I would put new Front Office handling players and putting team together at least subpar to very weak. I think they could turn things around but I have very serious doubts on this at this point. Minnesota nice only goes so far and I think there time is running our real quick I wouldn't be surprised by next year were talking about what ownership will be looking for in new Front Office because of fan reaction. I know this short time period but look at the structure of this team for next year and were still looking at least another year before high A prospects are here. 

[Mike Sixel]

I guess I'd suggest next year is the prove it year now that they are looking at about $80M in available payroll and plenty prospects available to trade.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the AA/AAA comment though. Personally, I'm really looking forward to seeing Thorpe, Romero, Rooker, Wade and Wells. Gordon's still giving other people the warm fuzzies too I believe.

One of whom this FO added. I don't give them much credit for guys here before them....

[Channing1964]

Let's take this step by step:

1. We were getting nothing for Dozier, he was leaving at the end of the year and not coming back. A QO to me was out of the question. Prospects we got may not be great, but De Jong may be a piece, too early to tell.

2. Even if Gonsalves is a AAAA type, Twins should have a passible rotation next year, Berrios, Gibson, Oderizzi, Pineda, and a group of De Jong, Stewart, Little and maybe Thorpe should have enough to get us by. This group will not be great, but could be better than this year.

3. If Sano and Buxton recover somewhat, our offense should be playable. Castro and Garver at catcher, Austin and Kepler at 1B(if we do not resign Mauer), FA at 2B or SS. Polonco at one Middle infield position, Sano at 3B. Rosario, Buxton, Kepler and Cave in the outfield. Maybe Wade can make it. You have the room and the money for some decent FA signings in the position market, and the openings are were you do not have to break the bank, unless you want to go top shelf.(would be nice, do not expect it.)

4. Relief Pitchers have plenty out there, 4 top end closers and multiple other guys. Would like to see Twins spend in this area, but am not sure who they want. Kimbel, Miller, Herridia, come to mind and I am sure there are others.

I am looking at several mid range short term signings 2 - 3 years max. Outside of Rodgers and Hildenberg do not think Twins have much in the way of relievers coming back, but expect a few of them to be here (moya, may, Duffey) along with hopefully a couple or three decent signings)

 

This will get you a mid range club with some playoff hopes. Rest of the division outside of Cleveland is a dumpster fire and 3 - 5 years away from even thinking about contending (yes the White Sox may be closer, but have little at the major league level (outside of decent starting pitching) at this time.

Silly me how could i overlook their outstanding pitching...Bauer, Danny Santana, Andrew Miller, Carrasco...donthey get incentives for time spent on the D.L. The best story is the one about Bauer missing a playoff start because he cut his finger playing with his droid...l.m.m.f.a.o. gotta be chanpionshio favorites at this point..(sorry Derek)

[Channing1964]

So you are going with #2. The Twins forced him to get a medical procedure against his will.

The good news for him is that he should get many times his lifetime earnings in the lawsuit. And, I'd expect prison time for those involved as well.

Does the whole thing even make sense to you? I get it you wanna shoot me down...i wish i could just say "it's gonna be fine guys... we're heading in the right directiin...be patient" Its Not fine. We're going backwards one sidestep at a time. If it werd one isolated incident ok...theyre new at this, but ITS NOT! How did Sano make it through Spring Training and nobody saw these issues that ultimately had him sent not to AAA BUT FORT MYERS!!. At the first of June!!..what a coincidence he was magically deemed all better the day Escobar got traded. Did you pay attention to this season at all? I am sorry but too many things have happened that makes me step back and say Hmmm...whats really goin on here. I get it you dont agree with me ok...thats fine but you know i spit real.

[Channing1964]

i am going with this...This is no way to run a baseball team

[Channing1964]

A like didn't seem sufficient for this post. Spot on.

I love it too ...i want my unborn grandchildren to graduate from high school before this franchise ever becomes competitive again

[TheLeviathan]

 

I love it too ...i want my unborn grandchildren to graduate from high school before this franchise ever becomes competitive again

 

That might have been achieved trying to go for it this year.  

 

There is a bizarre disconnect that post was right to highlight:  Some of the same posters who were loudly clamoring for the Twins to buy at the deadline are now loudly bemoaning the lack of quality players on the 40 man roster.  That's a hard circle to square for both to be true.

 

If indeed this roster is not talented enough right now such that the FO should be derided for their efforts, why would anyone in their right mind encourage them to buy?  If this roster was a move or two from contention...why rag on them about the state of the team?  Surely the difference between "Playoffs here we come!" and "We're god awful" isn't Escobar, Pressley, and Dozier right?

 

Those two arguments aren't quite contradictory, but they're real close.

Edited September 14, 2018 by TheLeviathan

[beckmt]

 

Silly me how could i overlook their outstanding pitching...Bauer, Danny Santana, Andrew Miller, Carrasco...donthey get incentives for time spent on the D.L. The best story is the one about Bauer missing a playoff start because he cut his finger playing with his droid...l.m.m.f.a.o. gotta be chanpionshio favorites at this point..(sorry Derek)

Twins starting pitching will not match Cleveland in the next couple of years, that is a given.  However the Cleveland bullpen is no prize and getting worse, unlike a couple of years ago.  Trading Pressly (which was the one move I had doubts about) has cost the Twins as they would now be on their way to a shutdown bullpen(if not one close).  With Rodgers and Hildenberger and a couple of more pieces, this would be a bullpen you would have to respect in how you manage the game.

Rant warning

This is one of my biggest issues with Molitor.  He does not seem to recognize that you have to play a different game against the clubs that have shutdown bullpens, you have to play to score early and often and to be ahead(by as much as possible) after 5 innings.  Tampa Bay has figured this out, and their bullpen has masked many other issues with that ballclub.  Until Molitor learns to manage differently against different clubs, Twins will never by a well above .500 team(no matter what their talent level.  Just change the Twins record in one run ballgames and they would be close to .500 despite all their other issues.

Unlike some of the other posters here, I do feel with some additions in 2019 and some recovery to close to form from some Twins players Twins will be competitive in 2019.  Indians outside of their starting rotation and some key regulars are not better than the Twins.  I do not underestimate pitching, but given some improvement our offense should be better than Cleveland in 2019.

Twins have the money to spend (between $60 and $80 million) they should be able to accomplish something.

1. Sign one more starting pitcher(but only if #1 or #2 starter), otherwise they may be no better than some of the youngsters the Twins need to try.

2. Find 2 bullpen pieces to help put together a shutdown pen.  This will require some money as the better ones will be expensive ($12 - $18 million a year).

3. Find a 1B and a (2B or SS) to play for the next 2 years (1B may only need to be 1 year).

 

This is not an impossible task list.  Let's do it. 

[Mr. Brooks]

Does the whole thing even make sense to you? I get it you wanna shoot me down...i wish i could just say "it's gonna be fine guys... we're heading in the right directiin...be patient" Its Not fine. We're going backwards one sidestep at a time. If it werd one isolated incident ok...theyre new at this, but ITS NOT! How did Sano make it through Spring Training and nobody saw these issues that ultimately had him sent not to AAA BUT FORT MYERS!!. At the first of June!!..what a coincidence he was magically deemed all better the day Escobar got traded. Did you pay attention to this season at all? I am sorry but too many things have happened that makes me step back and say Hmmm...whats really goin on here. I get it you dont agree with me ok...thats fine but you know i spit real.

1) Santana makes complete sense. He tried to come back, he didn't have it. His velocity was way down, and he was being hit all over the ballpark. There were no signs of improvement.

Who gains by him continuing to pitch? All he'd be doing is putting more miles on his arm for no return on investment. Continuing to get hammered with diminished velocity isn't showcasing for his next team, if anything it hurts his value. He has no possible incentives that he can reach, despite your earlier suggestion of that being a motive of the club.

Here are all of his incentives:

 

200 innings: Not even close to within reach.

 

Cy Young: No chance.

 

Gold Glove: Already missed too much time to be considered.

 

All-Star: Already passed.

 

That's all of them.

 

Last year he put off treatment until Spring. That decision turned out awful for him. So, he decided to get a head start on treatment this year, knowing he's going to need as much time as possible to be healthy to audition for someone next Spring.

I don't understand how that makes less sense to you than a conspiracy to force treatment on him as a form of punishment.

 

2) You seem to be correlating any disagreement with you as a stance that the FO is great and everything is going to be just fine. You certainly won't find me saying that anywhere.

It doesn't have to be all in on one side or the other man.

I've seen things I like, and I've seen things that I don't understand. I don't know if these guys will succeed or fail.

But regardless of my opinion of the FO, or yours, when I see an accusation like the one you are making regarding Santana, I'm going to debate it. It reeks of a theory that can only be born out of a biased decision to create the most negative possible explanation for anything within the FO's reach.

[USAFChief]

 

That might have been achieved trying to go for it this year.  

 

There is a bizarre disconnect that post was right to highlight:  Some of the same posters who were loudly clamoring for the Twins to buy at the deadline are now loudly bemoaning the lack of quality players on the 40 man roster.  That's a hard circle to square for both to be true.

 

If indeed this roster is not talented enough right now such that the FO should be derided for their efforts, why would anyone in their right mind encourage them to buy?  If this roster was a move or two from contention...why rag on them about the state of the team?  Surely the difference between "Playoffs here we come!" and "We're god awful" isn't Escobar, Pressley, and Dozier right?

 

Those two arguments aren't quite contradictory, but they're real close.

I think you might have this backwards.

 

Shouldn't the "trade 'em all!" crowd be defending the results? How did that help the Minnesota Twins? You're glad we now have space for Gimenez, Belisle, Field, et al?

 

Surely the difference between Escobar, Pressly and Dozier and the state of the organization must be more than we see, right? 

 

Or was a FSL pennant the end game?

[Rosterman]

I remember Falvine duo at the State Fair in 2017. Both were a bit amazed at how well the Twins were playing ball  It wasn't what they expected. Sure, the Twins eeked above .500 and got a Wild Card spot, but it was a team that wasn't expected to play (or draw) that well. They were honest in their assessment, talking about the future core of the team, changes they hoped to make in the farm system, and that they had a plan for bringing winning ways back to Minnesota.

 

Didn't see them making a Fair appearance in 2018. If they had, imagine they would say that they were surprised that nothing worked out as planned...free agents failed, the future core had an off season...BUT hope is on the way...maybe not next season, but beyond...and a shill line would follow "that management has given us every resource to improve, if we see the need to spend, in the years ahead." 

 

I'm giving them a leash. I am also remember those words that WE were told waaay back when....to paraphrase.....building a new stadium and the glorious (almost paid of on the Pohlad end Target Field) means the Twins will be able to resign their own free agents and pay competitively in the marketplace. 

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think you might have this backwards.

 

Shouldn't the "trade 'em all!" crowd be defending the results? How did that help the Minnesota Twins? You're glad we now have space for Gimenez, Belisle, Field, et al?

 

Surely the difference between Escobar, Pressly and Dozier and the state of the organization must be more than we see, right? 

 

Or was a FSL pennant the end game?

 

No, your argument doesn't follow at all.  We didn't sell players to restock the 40 man roster right now, so right there this entire post falls apart.  We sold players and stocked up on talent that will hopefully be part of the future 40 man roster. So nothing backwards at all, the criticism of your positions still holds true.  You can't argue how ready they were for a playoff run this year and simultaneously bemoan how awful our talent is.  One of those two things is likely a silly notion.  (Hint: it's the first one.  Has been since July.  Probably since May)

 

So, yes, I will judge the returns on those trades in time.  They were never designed to help September of 2018, they were designed to be a factor in September 2021.  I liked the approach - high upside, lower minors guys for players that weren't going to do anything to change the trajectory of this year.  They only have to hit on one or two of those acquisitions for it to be a massive success for that future 40 man roster.

 

And that plays into what many of us are saying, the real measure of this FO's work will be seen in 2-3 years time.  Just as it was for the Cubs, Astros, and others.   We openly acknowledge the fact of today - this team isn't very talented.  I give the FO an incomplete overall because so many of their moves have been to strengthen the overall talent in the organization, but I don't pretend the current 40 man is anything other than a disaster.  We agree on that apparently.  But we also openly acknowledge the moves made this year were for the long-term.  There is no inconsistency.  There is, however, inconsistency in your position.  Unless you've changed your mind about how playoff ready this team was, your opinions do not mesh.  

 

Maybe, just maybe, the opinion that was misguided was the one people were trying to convince you for weeks: this isn't a very good baseball team.  No reason to chase ghosts.  

Edited September 14, 2018 by TheLeviathan

[USAFChief]

 

No, your argument doesn't follow at all.  We didn't sell players to restock the 40 man roster right now, so right there this entire post falls apart.  We sold players and stocked up on talent that will hopefully be part of the future 40 man roster. So nothing backwards at all, the criticism of your positions still holds true.  You can't argue how ready they were for a playoff run this year and simultaneously bemoan how awful our talent is.  One of those two things is likely a silly notion.  (Hint: it's the first one.  Has been since July.  Probably since May)

 

So, yes, I will judge the returns on those trades in time.  They were never designed to help September of 2018, they were designed to be a factor in September 2021.  I liked the approach - high upside, lower minors guys for players that weren't going to do anything to change the trajectory of this year.  They only have to hit on one or two of those acquisitions for it to be a massive success for that future 40 man roster.

 

And that plays into what many of us are saying, the real measure of this FO's work will be seen in 2-3 years time.  Just as it was for the Cubs, Astros, and others.   We openly acknowledge the fact of today - this team isn't very talented.  I give the FO an incomplete overall because so many of their moves have been to strengthen the overall talent in the organization, but I don't pretend the current 40 man is anything other than a disaster.  We agree on that apparently.  But we also openly acknowledge the moves made this year were for the long-term.  There is no inconsistency.  There is, however, inconsistency in your position.  Unless you've changed your mind about how playoff ready this team was, your opinions do not mesh.  

 

Maybe, just maybe, the opinion that was misguided was the one people were trying to convince you for weeks: this isn't a very good baseball team.  No reason to chase ghosts.  

I didn't like stripping the 40 man in July.

 

I don't like the status of the 40 man today.

 

There's nothing inconsistent about that.

[Channing1964]

That might have been achieved trying to go for it this year.

 

There is a bizarre disconnect that post was right to highlight: Some of the same posters who were loudly clamoring for the Twins to buy at the deadline are now loudly bemoaning the lack of quality players on the 40 man roster. That's a hard circle to square for both to be true.

 

If indeed this roster is not talented enough right now such that the FO should be derided for their efforts, why would anyone in their right mind encourage them to buy? If this roster was a move or two from contention...why rag on them about the state of the team? Surely the difference between "Playoffs here we come!" and "We're god awful" isn't Escobar, Pressley, and Dozier right?

 

Those two arguments aren't quite contradictory, but they're real close.

I know some people are complaining about the 40 man roster but it hasnt been me. It is what it should be after you trade 7 major leaguers for 15 maybes, no ways , and ill be dead before we ever knows. The five year plan is just where it belongs....gut the team, start over with all our own people(Cleveland and Texas cast-offs) and by maybe Maybe 2024 we can compete for another wild card. Dang it.....weren't we just in a wild card game? The disparity between the Bostons, New Yorks and even the Angels is never going to go away no matter what you do. Trying to compete with them is not even logical. Putting a team together of Twins operating under an inspired field manager can and will win a title. You have to get in the tournament to have shot. With this regime we can sell every singke year if we have to be the favorites for the title to finish the season. I dont see this reasoning at all. The disparity in revenue will Never go away so forget that.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I didn't like stripping the 40 man in July.

 

I don't like the status of the 40 man today.

 

There's nothing inconsistent about that.

 

Seems odd to believe the team is bad in July but worthy of a playoff push.

[USAFChief]

 

Seems odd to believe the team is bad in July but worthy of a playoff push.

Where did I say I believed the team was bad in July?

 

That's your position, not mine.

[ND-Fan]

I just watched interview with Billy Beane of the A's they were asking him on how he rebuilds and his answer may shock some of you. He doesn't have 5 year plan he said he can't afford it he tries to put a winner together every year and adjust from there. They were talking to him about having 3 last place finishing squads and he was even surprised he had 3 because he thought last years team had done much better finishing strong. The general feel I got from him 5 year plans are to long and to many things can go wrong he is philosophy of trying to win as soon as you can. I look at his club he gone from contender to being as poor as were Twins to being a contender again while the Twins have been floundering on putting a 5 year plan together. I am seeing same things with Yankees, Phillies, Arizona, Colorado, and number of other clubs they have rebuilt themselves quickly to win while were on this long term track to rebuild. The questions that need to be asked is why is it these teams farm systems seem to restock so quickly with high end talent where it takes us years to acquire this talent. We sure not spending at the big league level on player talent so what gives do we not spend money signing players like these other clubs must do. Also another point with the A's is that if they are win now mode they value there 40 man roster more than total minor league system saying they use minor league system like cash they improve their roster with prospects and when things don't go as plan they sell pieces that don't fit there roster for minor leaguers to improve their cash position again to trade for people improve their roster again. I am not sure this would work for us but I like idea they want to win now not in future with prospects. In baseball planning to win in the future is pretty shaky because there are too many variables of what can happen to your players plus you don't where or how other teams may be playing when your planning to be a winner. I believe in 2000's we should have signed a player or two that could have given us edge to be winner instead they went with minimum to just win the division or the wild card. Especially when we finally got to playoffs we hurt and worn down from race to just win a playoff spot. I also think last year we had a better shot than we got if we had invested in that team with extra piece or two but we were in five year rebuild mode and winning wasn't part of the plan. 

I keep hearing about the Cubs and Houston how they rebuilt there clubs that is what were doing and I see very little in common with them and where we are now. The difference with us and the Cubs is they had couple of quality drafts and they were able sign end pitching to put together a winning club. They are also big market club they have been and willing to sign high end talent. Houston went with plan of just being terrible to acquire talent through draft and they were able also to sign under old rules international players to also bolster there talent pool. Since then they made the big trade for Verlander to get them a world series title. I also think the way they built there clubs may not be repeatable because of how baseball is changing. 

All I know now is our 40 man roster is weak not in one area but all area's for the coming year. We have shortages of quality players in infield, Catcher, Starting pitching, and Relief pitching and only place we have what I would call were adequate is at outfield positions but still looking at a lot questions if these players can hit at the major league level. Second is that I doubt we sign any major free agents for the coming year this Front Office has been even more unwilling to sign players to long term deals than previous front office. I could see them trade for 40 man roster player that could be ready to graduate to majors but I again have a feeling they may feel is to costly again so we may not see this. So we will see some more one year signings and another lost year and acquiring of more prospects. Cleveland did similar to this but they had empty stadium and took for ever to get the fans to coming back again. We see how that plays in MN.

[Major League Ready]

 

Im not sure if this was specifically meant for me but it doesnt matter. I have no problem making my view very crystal clear. Hell No I dont think it was the right decision to sell at the 2018 trading deadline. I fully believe the group we had in place WAS capable to compete for and possibly win a World Series title. The factors that i cite are these. Santana was coming back off the D.L. Polanco was back from his suspension. Buxton would right himself and come back strong as in 2017.(which he did in Rochester..reference b.a. after the D.l.) Whatever Club Med retreat Sano was on was going to work and he would make a difference in the last 2 months. Lance Lynn never had a spring training and was finally rounding into the winner that he is.(check out his last few starts especially the last one at Fenway). Rodney had 25 saves when he was dumped for a rookie league suspect recovering from TJ surgery. Cleveland is a pretender that only had an eight game lead over us with 62 GAMES TO GO!. 10 of those 62 games were against Cleveland. HELL NO. We never should have tanked this season. It was a disgrace to do that to the season ticket holders, the fans , the players, and the coaching staff. Is that clear enough? This was a golden opportunity that was thrown away in favor of some analytical genius self proclaimed saviors. Giving up with one third of a season left is not the epitome of being a Minnesota Twins fan has ever included. Believe Dat.

 

The first problem with this thought process is that you have a faulty assumption. Your assessment is based the assumption Santana would be back AND effective. He was not effective when he was back and in the end he could not overcome his injury. You better know he will be back and effective before you forgo adding a dozen prospects.

 

However, let’s just say the best case scenario you laid out came together. How would the Twins have stacked up against the Indians? In other words, what were the chances of playing at a win rate to overcome a 10 game deficit with 56 games to play?

 

They have two players (Rameriz and Lindor) that are legit MVP candidates. They are better defensively than the Twins counterparts and Faaaaaar better offensively with an OPS of .967 and .881 respectively.  Even their 3rd best hitter (Brantley is better than our best offensive player (Rosario).  831 vs 800 OPS.

What about starting pitching. Again, their 4th best guy is pretty equivalent to our best guy. Their two best SPs are among the very best in baseball. HUGE advantage Cleveland.

 

I respect a never quit approach but where management decision making is concerned, not selling would have been gross incompetence IMO. Even under the best case scenario you applied, the Twins were very unlikely to keep pace much less make up 10 games. If the Indians only play 500 ball the rest of the way, the end up with 91 wins. The Twins would have needed to go 52-14 to tie the Indians. That’s assuming they play 500 ball. More likely, they would have to have gone at least 54-12 (.818) If you look at the decision to sell based on these facts and determine the opportunity cost ( a dozen prospects) would have been justified, we definitely disagree. If you look at these facts, any competent GM would evaluate this type of decision far differently than you have.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Where did I say I believed the team was bad in July?

 

That's your position, not mine.

 

So the Twins were good in July, trade three significant players (not all-star studs by any stretch, but good players) and became a tire fire?  

 

I don't understand that either.  Your position is a near contradiction, but you refuse to take that issue head-on.  You felt the team was a playoff team in July and now you think the organization is in shambles.  

 

That doesn't compute.  At least not rationally.  And if we're going to hvae threads evaluating the FO, I think being reasonable and consistent is important.  You don't seem to be regarding the discrepancy in these two stances.

Edited September 14, 2018 by TheLeviathan

[jimmer]

 

So the Twins were good in July, trade three significant players (not all-star studs by any stretch, but good players) and became a tire fire?  

 

I don't understand that either.  Your position is a near contradiction, but you refuse to take that issue head-on.  You felt the team was a playoff team in July and now you think the organization is in shambles.  

 

That doesn't compute.  At least not rationally.  And if we're going to hvae threads evaluating the FO, I think being reasonable and consistent is important.  You don't seem to be regarding the discrepancy in these two stances.

In July, the Twins were a fantastic, awe inspiring 14-13.  Overall, they were 49-57 at the trade deadline.  The AL Wild Card teams will each have close to 100 wins and Cleveland will likely have 92+.

Edited September 14, 2018 by jimmer

[Channing1964]

Seems odd to believe the team is bad in July but worthy of a playoff push.

Im looking and i still dont see anyone say they were in favor of making a run but now saying they were bad anyway. I will say I did and I Do think they could have caught Cleveland. Of course Now the forty man roster is a joke. I know I am am talking about how much I wish we could have seen what would have happened with Escobar, Dozier, Sano back, Polanco back, Pressly and Duke, and Rodney still in the bullpen and Lynn still holding down a spot in the rotation. Somebody somewhere decided that 9 games out with 62 to go was insurmountable. I assure you sir Cleveland is NOT that good. And we had something like 10 games remaining with them. Let them decide it on the field. I dont follow the Twins because i love watching the outcomes of Falvey and Levine's decisions. IMO Id never see them in the news at all. Of course its a moot point now. They made their beds and time will tell..i am upset because i feel they screwed the fans this year. Nobody can say now what would or would not have happened because they made sure(unlike last year) to dismantle the 25 man so there was not a snowballs chance in....Arizona.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

So the Twins were good in July, trade three significant players (not all-star studs by any stretch, but good players) and became a tire fire?  

 

I don't understand that either.  Your position is a near contradiction, but you refuse to take that issue head-on.  You felt the team was a playoff team in July and now you think the organization is in shambles.  

 

That doesn't compute.  At least not rationally.  And if we're going to hvae threads evaluating the FO, I think being reasonable and consistent is important.  You don't seem to be regarding the discrepancy in these two stances.

The front office pulled the plug.

 

There's nothing inconsistent here, unless you're of the type who believes players are mere emotionless stat producers (and you are of that type). But, players are humans and Escobar/Dozier were key players--and yes Dozier has fallen off a cliff. Then Rodney was traded, and Buxton was sent home.

 

It was a good team from 2017 to mid-2018. Now it's a complete mess.

[TheLeviathan]

 

The front office pulled the plug.

There's nothing inconsistent here, unless you're of the type who believes players are mere emotionless stat producers (and you are of that type). But, players are humans and Escobar/Dozier were key players--and yes Dozier has fallen off a cliff. Then Rodney was traded, and Buxton was sent home.

It was a good team from 2017 to mid-2018. Now it's a complete mess.

 

Are you saying losing Rodney, Pressley, and Escobar is enough to turn the 40 man from a playoff contender to a tire fire?  If not, then....yes....you are being inconsistent.  If you're saying, yes - those three players are that much of a difference, well then we can talk about that.  Because I think that position is demonstrably misguided.

 

Reality is that this is basically the same group, just swap out Lynn, Pressley, Rodney, Escobar, and Dozier for Austin, Forsythe, Drake, and DeJong.  I don't see that as a terribly meaningful swap.  Certainly not the difference between being awful and being a contender.  

 

If you're going to bash the FO for not being wise enough to see the WS contender they had in July and then turn around a month and a half later and claim the 40 man roster is a Titanic....you're going to have to do better than "But what about Rodney!"  

 

Your views don't mesh.  The only thing consistent is that you want to bash the FO, but your justifications for doing so are basically contradictions.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Im looking and i still dont see anyone say they were in favor of making a run but now saying they were bad anyway. I will say I did and I Do think they could have caught Cleveland. Of course Now the forty man roster is a joke. I know I am am talking about how much I wish we could have seen what would have happened with Escobar, Dozier, Sano back, Polanco back, Pressly and Duke, and Rodney still in the bullpen and Lynn still holding down a spot in the rotation. Somebody somewhere decided that 9 games out with 62 to go was insurmountable. I assure you sir Cleveland is NOT that good. And we had something like 10 games remaining with them. Let them decide it on the field. I dont follow the Twins because i love watching the outcomes of Falvey and Levine's decisions. IMO Id never see them in the news at all. Of course its a moot point now. They made their beds and time will tell..i am upset because i feel they screwed the fans this year. Nobody can say now what would or would not have happened because they made sure(unlike last year) to dismantle the 25 man so there was not a snowballs chance in....Arizona.

 

At their current pace Cleveland looks to be about a 90-92 win team.  The same Twins team many here think is a 40 man dumpster fire would've had to go 43-13 to surmount that lead.

 

Practically speaking, yes, that's insurmountable.  

[USAFChief]

 

So the Twins were good in July, trade three significant players (not all-star studs by any stretch, but good players) and became a tire fire?  

 

I don't understand that either.  Your position is a near contradiction, but you refuse to take that issue head-on.  You felt the team was a playoff team in July and now you think the organization is in shambles.  

 

That doesn't compute.  At least not rationally.  And if we're going to hvae threads evaluating the FO, I think being reasonable and consistent is important.  You don't seem to be regarding the discrepancy in these two stances.

Please stop inventing exaggerated positions to me that I haven't taken.

 

I haven't said the Twins "were good in July." We've been through this multiple times, but one more time... I have said i didn't think they deserved to have the season torpedo'd. They were playing better, got to within 5 games of the division, and could reasonably have expected to get Sano/Buxton/Santana back and producing. Add to that, by being a buyer instead of seller, and I still think they had a chance. 

 

Instead, the 40 man was gutted, and filled with mostly dreck. There is pretty much nothing left on the 40 man that can reasonably be expected to provide significant help in 2019, sans Buxton. They've taken a team that had snuck into the playoffs in 2017, was largely expected to be a contender this year by most here at TD, and turned it into a team that I'm hard pressed to describe as better than KC, Detroit, or certainly Chicago.

 

You may disagree, and that's fine. But there's nothing inconsistent about my position. I have long held to the position that there is nothing more overrated than prospects. Particularly prospects in the low minors. I could care less. If one or two of them end up being a significant contributor somewhere down the road, great. But I'll give the front office little credit for that, either. They will have gotten lucky, as will pretty much any front office when they acquire low minors prospects not within the top 5 or 10 in multiple ratings, and even that is somewhat of a crapshoot, as certainly we Twins fans should know without a shadow of a doubt.

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Please stop attributing positions to me that I haven't taken.

 

I haven't said the Twins "were good in July." 

 

Did they have the talent of a playoff contender as of late July?

 

I'm asking you directly because I would assume a rational person who wants the team to invest for the playoffs would consider the team "good".  If, for some inexplicable reason, you don't think they were a good team....well then you have another issue of consistency.  Or at least of good decision making.

[Major League Ready]

 

Im looking and i still dont see anyone say they were in favor of making a run but now saying they were bad anyway. I will say I did and I Do think they could have caught Cleveland. Of course Now the forty man roster is a joke. I know I am am talking about how much I wish we could have seen what would have happened with Escobar, Dozier, Sano back, Polanco back, Pressly and Duke, and Rodney still in the bullpen and Lynn still holding down a spot in the rotation. Somebody somewhere decided that 9 games out with 62 to go was insurmountable. I assure you sir Cleveland is NOT that good. And we had something like 10 games remaining with them. Let them decide it on the field. I dont follow the Twins because i love watching the outcomes of Falvey and Levine's decisions. IMO Id never see them in the news at all. Of course its a moot point now. They made their beds and time will tell..i am upset because i feel they screwed the fans this year. Nobody can say now what would or would not have happened because they made sure(unlike last year) to dismantle the 25 man so there was not a snowballs chance in....Arizona.

 

You are refusing to look at this objectively. The Indians are on pace to win 91 games. The Twins would have had to have gone 52-14 to catch the Indians. Are you really suggesting it is reasonable to think a team with a winning percentage of .462 was going to win at a .788 pace had they kept the players you mentioned?

 

Cleveland’s 4th best SP has equal or perhaps even better stats than our best SP. Brantley's stats are better than our best offensive player. Their two best position players are significantly better than any of the Twin’s position players. Please explain how Cleveland is not good relative to the Twins. I would love to see what I am missing.

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by Major Leauge Ready

[USAFChief]

 

You are refusing to look at this objectively. The Indians are on pace to win 91 games. The Twins would have had to have gone 52-14 to catch the Indians. Are you really suggesting it is reasonable to think a team with a winning percentage of .462 was going to win at a .788 pace had they kept the players you mentioned?

 

Cleveland’s 4th best SP has equal or perhaps even better stats than our best SP. Brantley's stats are better than our best offensive player. Their two best position players are significantly better than any of the Twin’s position players. Please explain how Cleveland is not good relative to the Twins. I would love to see what I am missing.

The Twins started their dismantling of the roster with the Escobar trade on July 27th. After the games of July 27th, the Twins were 48-53. Cleveland, 56-46. At that point, Cleveland was on pace to win 89 games. The Twins would have need to make up 6 games in the win column over the final two months.

 

The Twins were certainly not in good shape, but not out of it. And it's a bit convenient to use Cleveland's results now, which are known, to shape an argument about what should have been done then.