Article: Where Are The Twins Getting It Wrong?

[Rosterman]

Lots and lots of great discussion.

 

First off, the Twins hired two guys, a general manager and a VP of Operations (somehow they couldn't give him the title of President). Because of playoffs, they started their of-season late. SUpposedly they were given power to make changes, but - because of starting late - they limited changes in the front office and scouting and even on the field. They also inherited a manager who was the darling of the owner. But they also inherited the worst won/loss record in Twins history.

 

They saw one major area of weakness. They signed Castro to a three year deal...not because he was a great hitter but because he works with pitchers. They signed Gimenez to be a backup. They had Garver in the wings. The Twins lost their other top-notch catching prospect in the Rule 5 (remember Stu Turner anyone?). So, Castro...or bring back Suzuki. You tell me. I like Suzuki. Maybe we should've kept him, too. No one knew the guy to catch young pitchers would be disabled msot of 2018.

 

2017. The Twins were competitive in a weak division...actually a weak league. They got a Wild Card spot. Whew. You don't fire a manager of the year. You give him an extension (and how do you think about that now?). Happily, teams can eat a manager's contract moreso than a player contract. Suddenly you were looking at a solid core than needed to improve (Buxton, Rosario, Kepler, Polanco, Berrios, Sano and a number of bullpen arms). 

 

Now step back for a moment. These young guys in the front office set a plan. They have, supposedly, five years to implement their plan. I';m sure 2017 was spent evaluating everything possible. Changes WERE made in minor league management, some scouting choices, adding more analytics to the ront office, having some fine drafts, picking up a Braves limbo player. Looking at Class A+Ft Myers and below, the duo have done an excellent job of restocking the minor leagues. 2019 will show if the Twins have more than 4-5 GREAT prspects in their top 30 or top 50.

 

MINOR NOTE: No team wants to announce that they are in total rebuild mode. That players will be given an opportunity to fail on their way to being, possibly great. It doesn't sell tickets. So, you have to develop spin. "Getting pieces ot be competitive" "players need time to improve" "a real bargain that produces" "free beer," The Twins appeared hot going into 2018. The town was Super Bowl happy, Vikings high, but the Twins looked like they could battle with Cleveland for the top of the division, especially as the season began.

 

What did the Twins do in the off-season? They needed to strengthen the rotation. They did make a serious run at Yu, someone who would fit into the five year plan. They dangled money. But they weren't the Cubs. They looked around and explored other opportunities. They found Jake Odorizzi, a controllable pitcher that they gave shortstop depth to obtain. Odorizzi, if he has a fine 2018, could be signed for 3-4-5 yers and fit into the longterm plans. (He still can). That was the thinking of Odorizzi. Some ways, same with Pineda,who they were going to get a small look at this season. Both will be trade bait or resigns next season.

 

They managed to sign Lance Lynn for a decent one-year contract. If he produced and love the town, he could come back. We saw how that worked out, but we did get a remarkable return for him, albeit eating his salary.

 

The Twins did a good job adding arms to the bullpen. Both Rodney and Reed were options to staying another season, Duke will be back on the market, so who knows. 

 

Logan Morrison was a bargain. Who would think he would have that most horrible start and flay at the ball all season. But, happily, these signings were placesetters and the Twins managed to turn some into stocking a system that was hurt minutely because, for the first time in years, the Twins had lowly draft picks (although they did a good jop...look at Larnach and Jeffers, for example).

 

Who would've thought Castro, Santana, Polanco, Sano and Buxton would absically go down. Go figure.

 

Long-term contracts  Always a gamble. Somehow the Twins didn't seem to want Dozier. Guessed right? What will his value be in the off-season. Many thought 2017 was a fluke for Escobar. Throughout his tenure with the Twins he got as much praise as Eddie Rosario, people always finding fault about some of the play, yet the player keeps producing and you scratch your head. At what point does a player get a BIG contract? Always a gamble. The Twins MIGHT be able to revisit Escobar. Now the question is HOW MUCH DO YOU PAY ROSARIO.

 

The youthful four turned down extensiuon. Berrios brings more to the bargaining table and the Twins need to up the offer. We will see. Sano, Buxton and Kepler are all treading water. If we had signed any of them for 3-5 years and say...$50 million each...how much love would we be giving them right now? Happily the Twins still have more time to evaluate and make offers and figure if they should still be here in 2021.

 

That is the team that the Twins are building. 2021. 

 

Oh, the current roster "sucks" bigtime. Only 3-4 names MIGHT be added of prospects to the 40-man. We will still have names like Grossman, Drake, Atudillo, Field, Slegers and mroe on the 40-man. But if the ront office finds someone better, some of those names will be replaced. There is no need to replace them with minor league guys who can still come to spring camp and light up play and possibly break camp.

 

Yes, I would like to see a few more guys given an early opportunity. Nick Gordon two years away? Rooker needs more seasoning? Thorpe not ready? In some ways I can understand. But IF the person fills a hole (be it second or shortstop - what happened to people saying Polanco is a better second baseman than shortstop)...I would err on giving a guy a chance.

 

But then we come to Buxton. Should he be allowed to fail even more? Cave is pretty decent. But why do we play Kepler and not Buxton? Is Cave the future of the center outfield (no, Krilloff is). If Buxton is ailing, shut him down...too bad he is on the minor league roster and not getting service time...still getting paid, right? Remember that Gibson went down to the minors last year, and many of us said he should not be offered arbitration...now the Twins are thinking of signing him to be a part of the 2021 experience.) Glen Perkins was removed from the 40-man roster at one point. Things happen in baseball. Sometimes you may be "the Real Deal" but no one wants you. Go figure. Maybe NONE of the names bandied around WILL be a part of the Twins of 2020 or 2021. Go back and look at roster changes over three seasons, over five seasons. 20%? 25% Stay? 

 

Now the team has to figure out how to sell the team to fans. That is the Big Question? Will Mauer retiring cause a setback? Or will signing Mauer to do WHAT? be praised? Joe, still a face of the franchise, is still just Minnesota Nice, which is a nice way to say it. Will Tyler Austin take his palce? Well Brent Rooker become a BIG name? Only time will tell.

 

The Twins do have a chance to spend money like they did last year. Maybe gamble on some free agents for a season that they can flip or possibly resign, if need be...especially in the bullpen.  Some of that is where they see prospects that they wish to play being in 2019...coming up mid-season or just September looksees. Again, prospects get called whenr regular players go down, so that is a plus for seeing the future, too.

 

Oh, and Ryan Pressly. One of those good Rule 5s. Had a tough 2017 (even though I thought he had closer potential). Had a solid season, even though Molitor would drag him out every othr game for almost any situation...bad overuse. Be interesting to see how the Astros use him. I want to think of him as Jesse Crain, the closer we allowed to get away. But hopefully, like Jesse, he doesn't flame out. I wish him the best and happy the Twins managed to grab a couple of prospects from the rich Astros system, which was part of the thinking of the front office. Some teams have good prospects that they can't keep...if you have the opportunity to go after them do so.

 

And to the comment that the Twins barely make it into the Top 7 of minor league farm systems...well, there are 23 more behind us that wish they were in the Top 7.

 

 

 

[ThejacKmp]

 

It is quite possible to take my sarcasm in a literal way. I apologize for failing to see that everyone doesnt seem to recognize the image that Falvine and Levine appear to be portraying to me, so i shall try to tone down the sarcasm. Heres the take ...It doesnt matter how old you are, how long you've had your job, or where you came from, to come off as smug , elitist, and arrogant is never going to win over many real fans. The way they handled the trading of Escobar completely infuriated me. I have had long term friends from New York to Los Angeles tell me that they never thought they would see the Minnesota Twins pull such bush league move. But thats not all. Did anyone see the post game interview by Ervin Santana after (probably his last game) he pitched in Detroit? He mentions how they are trying to do their job and win games but its hard when every day another one of their important pieces are taken from them. The next day it was announced he was shut down for the year due to recurring injury complications.That was Bull. 12 hours earlier he was telling reporters how it was getting better and better with each outing. At the very least he should have been able to get some innings in and at least audition for a trade or a 2019 deal. We all know he's never coming back here ever again unless its to shut us out. THIS was a team leader that a lot...and i mean a LOT of latin players look up to and listen to. When he doesn't reach his incentives and it hurts his future you can bet he wont be quiet about it. And then the whole Buxton situation happened AFTER that. There is one way to treat people that isnt legally wrong but ethically? I think we all agree its going to take a lot more money now to convince any top tier free agents to come here. Also these young guys are going to think twice about staying here after they've seen first hand what happened to guys like Dozier and Escobar. These kind of amateurish first year executive moves arent going to go unnoticed among the Twins players or players on other teams. So Yeah i do think that the Dynamic Duo sees themselves as the kings of the world, accountable to nobody. I'll still be a Twins fan when this doesnt work out and they are banging on doors in Cleveland and Arlington trying to get their old jobs back.

 

Wow. Let’s break this down.

 

It doesnt matter how old you are, how long you've had your job, or where you came from, to come off as smug , elitist, and arrogant is never going to win over many real fans.

 

I’ve never seen anything that says that they’re smug, elitist and arrogant. Do you have any examples to prove this? They seem to be consummately nice in media appearances and if they were elitist, they wouldn’t have come to the Twins. My belief is that you (and a section of the Twins Daily audience) is projecting anger at a whole series of baseball and non-baseball changes onto Flavine. The rise of analytics and the scientization/questioning of the traditional truths in sports and society is threatening because it means the way you see the world/sport may not be accurate. It’s easier to lash out at a symbol of that change than explore and then accept/reject the shifting changes.

 

Also, anytime someone talks about “real fans”, I groan a bit inside. We’re all real fans, there’s no reason to claim that you’re somehow better than other people. The mom who loves taking her kids but doesn’t know who is warming up in the bullpen is a real fan. The little kid who checks the box score every day because he can’t stay up late is a real fan. Aaron Gleeman, who loves breaking down statistics the same way the FO does, is a real fan. Stop trying to create tiers of fandom.

 

The way they handled the trading of Escobar completely infuriated me. I have had long term friends from New York to Los Angeles tell me that they never thought they would see the Minnesota Twins pull such bush league move.

 

My god. They traded a player to a playoff team! The inhumanity! Did your friend from New York think the Yankees were bush league when they traded Chapman to the Cubs? And when the Angels traded players at the deadline in 2015 and 2016? Every team in baseball does this when they have a bad season. The Twins have done it before. Stop acting like the Escobar trade was unusual. They told Escobar they were shopping him, it was widely reported he would go somewhere, and then it happened. He was sad to leave the Twins but excited to go into a pennant race. If he performs well there, it will only help his free agency as he’ll be performing on a big stage. You must be infuriated by all baseball moves?

 

Did anyone see the post game interview by Ervin Santana after (probably his last game) he pitched in Detroit? He mentions how they are trying to do their job and win games but its hard when every day another one of their important pieces are taken from them.

 

Dozier used to pull this too. Ervin did nothing to contribute to the team this year, calling out management for doing what’s best for the team when the players have not performed is pretty ridiculous.

 

The next day it was announced he was shut down for the year due to recurring injury complications.That was Bull. 12 hours earlier he was telling reporters how it was getting better and better with each outing. At the very least he should have been able to get some innings in and at least audition for a trade or a 2019 deal.

 

Santana wasn’t shut down because he said something. He was shut down because he is hurt. He has received injections on his finger because it’s not healed. It would actually be BS for the Twins to force him to pitch in the hope that he’d have trade value. They did what was best for the player – shut him down so he’ll be healthy for next season, even if it’s not with the Twins. Pretty cold hearted and inhuman huh?

 

Also these young guys are going to think twice about staying here after they've seen first hand what happened to guys like Dozier and Escobar.

 

If you really think that this is the first time the young guys have seen that baseball players move teams, I don’t know what to say to you. They’ve seen guys traded in the minors and Dozier is far from the first veteran to move about. They hung out with Lynn and Morrison this year, they know guys move. The Twins traded Dozier and Escobar to playoff teams where they can chase a ring. That isn’t some awful thing that was done and Escobar at least was grateful for the opportunity. Dozier whined but that’s because he didn’t get his contract (which would be a terrible contract BTW, another victory for the whiz kids!) I even get Dozier whining since he would’ve cashed in if he’d hit the market a year ago and looks ready for a tough free agency. I don’t think it’s the way I’d handle it but I get his sentiments. Just don’t think I’d blame the front office which (A.) made the right call not to trade him and (B.) did what every other team would do in its place and traded him when the Twins didn’t compete to (C.) a playoff team where a late-season surge would help Dozier more than if it was happening for the moribund Twins.

 

These kind of amateurish first year executive moves arent going to go unnoticed among the Twins players or players on other teams. So Yeah i do think that the Dynamic Duo sees themselves as the kings of the world, accountable to nobody.

 

These are veteran executive moves that have been utilized time and again to build good teams. The Cubs and Astros did it. The Braves did it. The Phillies didn’t with Howard/Utley/Co. and ended up in a five year rebuild. And again, you need to provide more evidence of their lack of accountability and smugness – just asserting something doesn’t make it true. “Donald Trump quit Twitter!” Nope. Not true. Even though I said it.

 

[KirbyDome89]

 

I think zeros on paychecks matter about a gazillion times more.

 

The dynamic between teams and players/agents is already adversarial.  It happens in every arbitration meeting.  Every contract discussion.  And if what you said was true...no player would've ever agreed to be part of the Miami Marlins organization since about 1997.  No team has jerked people around more than them and they still sign FAs, agree with draft picks, etc.  There is zero evidence for teams acting selfishly has any impact on player acquisition and reams of evidence to the contrary.

No, I don't think what the Twins did to Buxton means squat to any other player, agent, or anyone not named Byron Buxton. And even he won't care if enough zeros appear in an offer.

Of course, I think that's part of the reason the "FAs don't like MN," thing is overplayed. Do you believe the Twins are a franchise willing to throw those zeroes out? I don't, and if you're a mid market club that is notorious for being cheap I don't see how adding the reputation of player manipulation is harmless. 

 

Hyperbole? We know the players Miami did sign. We have no idea who may have ruled them out.  

 

The effect on other players and agents might be more indirect, but IMO this decision directly impacts the negotiations they'll have with that group they tried to extend last offseason. 

Edited September 12, 2018 by KirbyDome89

[KirbyDome89]

 

I think you'd need to find one instance of said player following up that season with a .383 OPS first. 

 

I mean seriously... There are players with higher OBPs than Buxton's OPS in the majors this year. 

 

You can point out service time manipulation, but at the same time, this isn't happening if Buxton's major league line is remotely competent. 

Johnny Field

Matt Belisle

Chris Gimenez

 

All of them have been terrible major league players this year. You can't tell me with a straight face that performance is what kept Buxton off an EXPANDED roster. 

[Vanimal46]

Fair enough, but other than 2 months in 2017, Buxton has looked bad in general. He looked pretty bad in the minors too this season. I don't think his injury gives him a mulligan here, and even as he heated up in September, he was doing so with crappy peripherals. Lots of people can look good in a 40 AB sample size, which is what hot week in September was. I just find this juxtaposition interesting. The argument made on this site to call him up was due to a hot week. I don't think you can have this both ways.

We can slice sample sizes in a lot of ways to fit either agenda. You say he had a hot 2 weeks in September. I can reply saying he hit .270 from May 1 to the end of the 2017 season which is above average to go along with elite defense.

 

We can go back and forth on this all day. But my problem isn't the offensive production or lack of it. My problem is the FO in cold blooded fashion suppressed his service time and failed to communicate with him. Teams tend to take advantage of this loophole before the player ever puts on an MLB uniform. It's extremely unusual to do this to a player with MLB experience over 3 years.

Edited September 12, 2018 by Vanimal46

[TheLeviathan]

 

We can slice sample sizes in a lot of ways to fit either agenda. You say he had a hot 2 weeks in September. I can reply saying he hit .270 from May 1 to the end of the 2017 season which is above average to go along with elite defense.

We can go back and forth on this all day. But my problem isn't the offensive production or lack of it. My problem is the FO in cold blooded fashion suppressed his service time and failed to communicate with him. Teams tend to take advantage of this loophole before the player ever puts on an MLB uniform. It's extremely unusual to do this to a player with MLB experience over 3 years.

 

You know what isn't a sample?  His 1,000 at-bats.  Do you know what his career OPS is?  What is K-BB ratios are?

 

Let's be real - the only way his offense looks anything other than "bad" is if you play the small sample game.  As a whole - it isn't good.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Of course, I think that's part of the reason the "FAs don't like MN," thing is overplayed. Do you believe the Twins are a franchise willing to throw those zeroes out? I don't, and if you're a mid market club that is notorious for being cheap I don't see how adding the reputation of player manipulation is harmless. 

 

Hyperbole? We know the players Miami did sign. We have no idea who may have ruled them out.  

 

The effect on other players and agents might be more indirect, but IMO this decision directly impacts the negotiations they'll have with that group they tried to extend last offseason. 

 

If they're cheap what they did to Buxton is irrelevant.  It'll never get past the stage of "Well, that offer sucked"  So your point is moot.  Which is kind of the point.

 

There is zero evidence that players and agents use adversarial tactics against clubs in negotiations.  Zero.  And the plainest evidence is right in front of you - EVERY club is adversarial in almost all contract talks, issues of service time, and negotiations.  If players and agents gave that any weight they'd have to stop playing major league baseball.  You could find all sorts of jerk moves to use against a club if you wanted to.  

 

As an example - every arbitration hearing where a billionaire nickel and dimed me would piss me off WAY more than this.  And that happens every year to all sorts of players!

 

Buxton's will matter squat to anyone not named Buxton.  The front office correctly dismissed that concern and, as I stated earlier, is really playing the long-game for upside here. 

Edited September 12, 2018 by TheLeviathan

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

You know what isn't a sample?  His 1,000 at-bats.  Do you know what his career OPS is?  What is K-BB ratios are?

And 43 healthy MLB PA ago, the Twins looked at that same career line and thought it was worth an opening day job and an extension offer (although who knows for how much).

 

43 healthy MLB PA later, and the same career line apparently deserves to get sent home, even with expanded rosters and the minor league season complete.

 

That's the juxtaposition that bothers me. I have no qualms about a Sano-to-Ft.-Myers-style rebuild project for Buxton, but it's a little suspicious and/or poor planning to not announce that until Sep. 1st. (Heck, given that the Sano thing clearly wasn't about service time -- he was sent down a few days *after* reaching 3 full years service -- I think linking his situation to Buxton's no later than August 1st or so could have spared the Twins some grief.)

[TheLeviathan]

 

And 43 healthy MLB PA ago, the Twins looked at that same career line and thought it was worth an opening day job and an extension offer (although who knows for how much).

 

43 healthy MLB PA later, and the same career line apparently deserves to get sent home, even with expanded rosters and the minor league season complete.

 

That's the juxtaposition that bothers me. I have no qualms about a Sano-to-Ft.-Myers-style rebuild project for Buxton, but it's a little suspicious and/or poor planning to not announce that until Sep. 1st. (Heck, given that the Sano thing clearly wasn't about service time -- he was sent down a few days *after* reaching 3 full years service -- I think linking his situation to Buxton's no later than August 1st or so could have spared the Twins some grief.)

 

I don't think anything they've done has indicated they have a lack of belief in Buxton's future.  In fact, saving his service time implies they still highly value his future.  I'm not sure there is any real contradiction there.

 

As you say, there are other decision in this that do mystify me a bit.  I'm of the opinion that if a player can't play two days in a row due to injury, he probably shouldn't be playing at all.  That's the real issue to me, they seemed to be half-assing their way through handling him.

Edited September 12, 2018 by TheLeviathan

[Vanimal46]

I don't think anything they've done has indicated they have a lack of belief in Buxton's future. In fact, saving his service time implies they still highly value his future. I'm not sure there is any real contradiction there.

 

As you say, there are other decision in this that do mystify me a bit. I'm of the opinion that if a player can't play two days in a row due to injury, he probably shouldn't be playing at all. That's the real issue to me, they seemed to be half-assing their way through handling him.

Their half-ass handling was a significant contributor to this lost season. The Twins were still in the race and they forgo his rehab assignment because he's valuable to the team. It was a horrible decision and resulted in 40+ unhealthy at bats playing on one foot.

 

What's Buxton's reward for being a trooper playing through injury? Being sent home in September and holding him back from free agency another year. Oh boy.

 

I hope going forward Buxton looks out for himself and takes the time necessary to play at 100%. Because clearly there's no reward for playing injured with this front office.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I don't think anything they've done has indicated they have a lack of belief in Buxton's future.  In fact, saving his service time implies they still highly value his future.  I'm not sure there is any real contradiction there.

I wasn't suggesting anything about their belief in Buxton's future. I was just saying, it's hard to spin their Sep. 1st decision to be about his 2015-2017 performance, given they made a very different decision with virtually all of that same data fairly recently.

 

I'd say it's more likely that they're actually pretty comfortable with his defense-first, streaky-offense profile, but they saw a window to manipulate his service time in 2018 and took it. (Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that -- but it could have been handled much better than dropping the hammer with a laundry list of excuses on Sep. 1st.)

[TheLeviathan]

 

Their half-ass handling was a significant contributor to this lost season. The Twins were still in the race and they forgo his rehab assignment because he's valuable to the team. It was a horrible decision and resulted in 40+ unhealthy at bats playing on one foot.

What's Buxton's reward for being a trooper playing through injury? Being sent home in September and holding him back from free agency another year. Oh boy.

I hope going forward Buxton looks out for himself and takes the time necessary to play at 100%. Because clearly there's no reward for playing injured with this front office.

 

Buxton should always look out for himself, regardless.  That's why players sign agents isn't it?  You and others act like some sacred bond of togetherness was broken here.  Player/team dynamics are almost always adversarial when it comes to contracts.  This is nothing new in that regard.  There are specifics to this case that are somewhat unique, but not as unique as some of are trying to portray.  At the end of the day it's a money squabble and that happens all the freaking time.

 

Also, you don't know if he was pressured to play.  He might have masked the injury or kept quiet about it also.  Or it might have been a joint effort.  

[TheLeviathan]

 

I wasn't suggesting anything about their belief in Buxton's future. I was just saying, it's hard to spin their Sep. 1st decision to be about his 2015-2017 performance, given they made a very different decision with virtually all of that same data fairly recently.

 

I'd say it's more likely that they're actually pretty comfortable with his defense-first, streaky-offense profile, but they saw a window to manipulate his service time in 2018 and took it. (Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with that -- but it could have been handled much better than dropping the hammer with a laundry list of excuses on Sep. 1st.)

 

I'm on the record as not loving their handling of it, so we agree there.  I think they are making the decision to extend his service time on the same basis they handed him CF to start the year: they still believe he'll be a star.

 

whether their basis is in his 2015-2017 performance, his athletic profile, his July/Aug run last year, or some combo of all of the above.....I think their decisions were consistent.  The outcome just looks strange because of the weird timing of injuries, rehab, and performance.

Edited September 12, 2018 by TheLeviathan

[KirbyDome89]

 

If they're cheap what they did to Buxton is irrelevant.  It'll never get past the stage of "Well, that offer sucked"  So your point is moot.  Which is kind of the point.

 

There is zero evidence that players and agents use adversarial tactics against clubs in negotiations.  Zero.  And the plainest evidence is right in front of you - EVERY club is adversarial in almost all contract talks, issues of service time, and negotiations.  If players and agents gave that any weight they'd have to stop playing major league baseball.  You could find all sorts of jerk moves to use against a club if you wanted to.  

 

As an example - every arbitration hearing where a billionaire nickel and dimed me would piss me off WAY more than this.  And that happens every year to all sorts of players!

 

Buxton's will matter squat to anyone not named Buxton.  The front office correctly dismissed that concern and, as I stated earlier, is really playing the long-game for upside here. 

Well, no, my point is that the decision reaches beyond Buxton. If you're working for a company; you watch a coworker get f***ed over on a bonus, and you're due to negotiate your next contract there, you don't think that situation plays any part in how you handle the upcoming negotiation? 

 

Every club fills a roster. I understand that. You're asking for evidence where neither of us can provide any. It's my opinion that a move like this leaves a sour taste in the mouths of players & agents. I can't say with any certainty how or if it affects negotiations. By that same token you can't use the fact that every teams fills an active roster as evidence that no player has ruled out particular organizations or ownership groups based on reputation/culture. It's openly agreed upon that variables like climate, business opportunities, cost of living, ect influence the decisions players make. I'm not sure why it's so controversial to think that franchise reputation/culture plays a role as well. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Well, no, my point is that the decision reaches beyond Buxton. If you're working for a company; you watch a coworker get f***ed over on a bonus, and you're due to negotiate your next contract there, you don't think that situation plays any part in how you handle the upcoming negotiation? 

 

Every club fills a roster. I understand that. You're asking for evidence where neither of us can provide any. It's my opinion that a move like this leaves a sour taste in the mouths of players & agents. I can't say with any certainty how or if it affects negotiations. By that same token you can't use the fact that every teams fills an active roster as evidence that no player has ruled out particular organizations or ownership groups based on reputation/culture. It's openly agreed upon that variables like climate, business opportunities, cost of living, ect influence the decisions players make. I'm not sure why it's so controversial to think that franchise reputation/culture plays a role as well. 

 

MLB does not operate like your company.  

 

Players resign with teams all the time that openly go into rooms, disparage the player, and talk an arbiter into saving them a few thousand bucks at the expense of a young player who could use it.  If that doesn't move the needle....why would this?  The reality is that players and agents understand the way the contract game is played - they find ways to use/game the system to their advantage and players make them pony up when it comes to free agency.  Getting lost in the weeds on the little stuff isn't on anyone's radar.  

 

I get that some here WANT this to be true, because it serves as a point to attack the FO on, but practically speaking it's irrelevant.  As irrelevant as how cold the winters in Minnesota are.  Our climate doesn't stop people from signing here, our checkbook does.

[Mike Sixel]

In two years, adding Castro, Austin, and odirizzi, and no help in AA or AAA that will help in year three is progress?

 

Short sighted? Give me a date we can expect wins..... When can we no longer say it is short sighted to add long term talent in trades or free agency to the roster?

[KirbyDome89]

 

Their half-ass handling was a significant contributor to this lost season. The Twins were still in the race and they forgo his rehab assignment because he's valuable to the team. It was a horrible decision and resulted in 40+ unhealthy at bats playing on one foot.

What's Buxton's reward for being a trooper playing through injury? Being sent home in September and holding him back from free agency another year. Oh boy.

I hope going forward Buxton looks out for himself and takes the time necessary to play at 100%. Because clearly there's no reward for playing injured with this front office.

The Twins gave themselves the opportunity to manipulate his service time by mishandling him early in the season. Then they set themselves up to do it when they optioned him during his rehab assignment following his DL stint, after they rushed him back from the toe injury. If he's allowed proper time to rest and rehab the toe injury his service time never becomes an issue. IMO the idea that Buxton played himself into this situation is just scapegoating for the FO. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I think they are making the decision to extend his service time on the same basis they handed him CF to start the year: they still believe he'll be a star.

I don't know about "star". They could just view him as a 3+ WAR guy when healthy, even with the questionable offense. An extra year of that still has value. In which case, the Sep. 1st decision had little to do with fixing his 2015-2017 offensive output.

[KirbyDome89]

 

MLB does not operate like your company.  

 

Players resign with teams all the time that openly go into rooms, disparage the player, and talk an arbiter into saving them a few thousand bucks at the expense of a young player who could use it.  If that doesn't move the needle....why would this?  The reality is that players and agents understand the way the contract game is played - they find ways to use/game the system to their advantage and players make them pony up when it comes to free agency.  Getting lost in the weeds on the little stuff isn't on anyone's radar.  

 

I get that some here WANT this to be true, because it serves as a point to attack the FO on, but practically speaking it's irrelevant.  As irrelevant as how cold the winters in Minnesota are.  Our climate doesn't stop people from signing here, our checkbook does.

Sure, and every employee wants to make more while every employer wants to pay them less. Arbitration is a negotiation process. There was no negotiation with the Buxton situation. The Twins took back a FA year from him. Not only does he stand to lose a hell of a lot more than a few thousand bucks, but there's also little he can do about it apart from filing a grievance, and good luck with that. 

 

There's a difference between being unable to come to an agreement on a raise, and an employer actively preventing you from reaching a raise. 

 

I don't think I've been overly harsh on this FO at any point during their tenure. You don't see any validity in criticizing the human element of their decision? 

 

Like I said, I agree that money matters above all else. I have 0 faith in this organization outspending other teams though. The Twins operate within the margins because they choose to. IMO the weeds matter in case. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I don't think I've been overly harsh on this FO at any point during their tenure. You don't see any validity in criticizing the human element of their decision? 

 

I do.  I think this has potential to be a major issue for Buxton.

 

It's when you try to project that to FA or other players that I think the criticism is reaching.  

[Rosterman]

 

In two years, adding Castro, Austin, and odirizzi, and no help in AA or AAA that will help in year three is progress?

Short sighted? Give me a date we can expect wins..... When can we no longer say it is short sighted to add long term talent in trades or free agency to the roster?

 

 

Castro added to work with new pitches coming to the major, he would've done a lot of the games Wilson did this year. Hopefully next season he will work with Romero, Stewart, Gonsalves and others. Garver the more experienced in the mix: Odorizzi, Berrios, Pineda.

 

Odorizzi was a gamble. You get him for two seasons at a decent rate. If he really shined, you might've extended him this off-season. You still have the chance to do so after next season (or during the season) and, if nothing else, you should be able to get someone's minor league (shortstop) player back in return.

 

Austin was an interesting grab from the Yankees. What did you expect for Lynn (The Twins also got a low level pitcher who did well this season).  The Twins need to keep him in the majors in 2019 or lose him (same as the Yankees). Right now, chances are he is better than Morrison, and probably better than keeping Vargas. Can actually play first or the outfield. Was he a longterm pieces? No. Considering the Twins MAY need a 1B/DH next season, and given a chance to play here in August and September, a nice return in the Lynn trade. Who knows, he might still be on the roster in 2020 or 2021.

 

As to wins...well, everyone else has to lose. The Twins have to look closely and see that Detroit, Kansas City and probably the White Sox are no worse off that then Twins. So they MIGHT have a chance to put up more wins in 2019. Out of a four team standoff, can they at least take series from those teams below them in the standings?

 

I truly thought the Twins would be the same as 2018, if not a tad better. Lynn and Odorizzi added to a staff headed by Santana. See how that worked out?

Three veteran arms added to the bullpen in Duke, Rodney, Reed. You can't save games if you are behind.

A bat in Morrison at DH capable of hitting .240 with 35-30 homers? Who knew?

Polanco, Sano, Buxton, Kepler essentially going backwards. Dozier NOT playing for a great free agent contract. Who would've thought.

 

Let's see. But a starter, some bullpen arms and a bat this off-season. They got the money. Can probably spend more than they did last season (considering they have Santana and Mauer money to spend, too.

 

If that happened, if the roster contained replacements (new expensive and proven) for Lynn, Morrison, Rodney, Duke, Morrison, and if you threw in dollars for a second baseman and ANOTHER rotation arm...would the Twins beat Cleveland? They could. Yes, they still could, and not change much of the "prospects" talent they have that will be given another season to shine.

[Mike Sixel]

The point is... In two years they have added no mid term talent, no one but Austin will be here next year and beyond. How many years until we can expect major league talent to be added for more than one year?

 

I don't care what they got for Lynn, I care that no one is added to the roster. I guess Grossman too..... Pineda has one year....

[old nurse]

The big if in the equation is called hitting. High WAR players do well in arbitration. Light hitters do not do well in free agency except for maybe catchers. In the end  13 days service time may not be a big deal for the number 9 batter in a lineup.

[nicksaviking]

 

In two years, adding Castro, Austin, and odirizzi, and no help in AA or AAA that will help in year three is progress?

Short sighted? Give me a date we can expect wins..... When can we no longer say it is short sighted to add long term talent in trades or free agency to the roster?

 

I guess I'd suggest next year is the prove it year now that they are looking at about $80M in available payroll and plenty prospects available to trade.

 

I'm not sure what you mean about the AA/AAA comment though. Personally, I'm really looking forward to seeing Thorpe, Romero, Rooker, Wade and Wells. Gordon's still giving other people the warm fuzzies too I believe.

[old nurse]

 

 

In two years, adding Castro, Austin, and odirizzi, and no help in AA or AAA that will help in year three is progress?

Short sighted? Give me a date we can expect wins..... When can we no longer say it is short sighted to add long term talent in trades or free agency to the roster?

There is Romero. There are all of the bullpen arms that got called up from Rochester this month and a couple who did not could be a great help.  Mejia could get it figured out. Raley, Rooker or Wiel by the end of 2019.  Odorizzi as a back of the rotation pitcher was a huge step up from Santiago and Colon or Touchdown Tommy Milone..  When you give up a low prospect and get back a inning eater by today's standards pitcher, that is a step up.  ROY candidates, not so much.  2019 is dependent upon the improvement by the group of players currently under the age of 26 improving, finding a rising 2b/ss,  finding a 1b, dh or 3b to anchor the middle of the lineup, 4/5 outfielder if you do not think Cave is one. As far as wins go, there have been posts in this thread that said this current collection of players were in contention this year.  When to expect wins? When Sano, Buxton, rosario all cause angst for a starting pitcher, or an opener.

[Mr. Brooks]

It is quite possible to take my sarcasm in a literal way. I apologize for failing to see that everyone doesnt seem to recognize the image that Falvine and Levine appear to be portraying to me, so i shall try to tone down the sarcasm. Heres the take ...It doesnt matter how old you are, how long you've had your job, or where you came from, to come off as smug , elitist, and arrogant is never going to win over many real fans. The way they handled the trading of Escobar completely infuriated me. I have had long term friends from New York to Los Angeles tell me that they never thought they would see the Minnesota Twins pull such bush league move. But thats not all. Did anyone see the post game interview by Ervin Santana after (probably his last game) he pitched in Detroit? He mentions how they are trying to do their job and win games but its hard when every day another one of their important pieces are taken from them. The next day it was announced he was shut down for the year due to recurring injury complications.That was Bull. 12 hours earlier he was telling reporters how it was getting better and better with each outing. At the very least he should have been able to get some innings in and at least audition for a trade or a 2019 deal. We all know he's never coming back here ever again unless its to shut us out. THIS was a team leader that a lot...and i mean a LOT of latin players look up to and listen to. When he doesn't reach his incentives and it hurts his future you can bet he wont be quiet about it. And then the whole Buxton situation happened AFTER that. There is one way to treat people that isnt legally wrong but ethically? I think we all agree its going to take a lot more money now to convince any top tier free agents to come here. Also these young guys are going to think twice about staying here after they've seen first hand what happened to guys like Dozier and Escobar. These kind of amateurish first year executive moves arent going to go unnoticed among the Twins players or players on other teams. So Yeah i do think that the Dynamic Duo sees themselves as the kings of the world, accountable to nobody. I'll still be a Twins fan when this doesnt work out and they are banging on doors in Cleveland and Arlington trying to get their old jobs back.

Which are you suggesting?

1) The Twins are lying about the injection Santana received in his finger?

2) The Twins forced Santana to have a medical procedure done, against his will, for the sole purpose of shutting him down as a form of punishment?

 

Both are extremely far fetched, enough so that perhaps you should step back and ask yourself if you are being completely objective in your evaluation of them.

[Channing1964]

Reading between the lines, there are some people who just can’t accept that the Twins were sellers or as they see it gave up on the season. Ironically, most of those same people are complaining the 40 man is in horrible shape. Yet, somehow they look at a very poorly performing team with very little in the high minors and deplore the very actions required to rectify the situation.

 

The disdain for “giving up” is an opportunity to portray everything they do in the worst possible light. Granted there are a couple things that were not handled ideally but to rant about the arrogant whiz kids auditioning for a gig in a larger market does not suggest an objective point of view. Teams selling off free agents in a lost season is baseball management 101. You can’t rant about how bad the team is positioned and at the same time ridicule the FO for selling. An Executive’s role and responsibilities are long-term in nature. Short-term focused fans are going to have a problem with a F/O looking to build sustainable systems, processes and practices. I want to watch a better brand of baseball year after year and short-term thinking is death of sustained performance.

Im not sure if this was specifically meant for me but it doesnt matter. I have no problem making my view very crystal clear. Hell No I dont think it was the right decision to sell at the 2018 trading deadline. I fully believe the group we had in place WAS capable to compete for and possibly win a World Series title. The factors that i cite are these. Santana was coming back off the D.L. Polanco was back from his suspension. Buxton would right himself and come back strong as in 2017.(which he did in Rochester..reference b.a. after the D.l.) Whatever Club Med retreat Sano was on was going to work and he would make a difference in the last 2 months. Lance Lynn never had a spring training and was finally rounding into the winner that he is.(check out his last few starts especially the last one at Fenway). Rodney had 25 saves when he was dumped for a rookie league suspect recovering from TJ surgery. Cleveland is a pretender that only had an eight game lead over us with 62 GAMES TO GO!. 10 of those 62 games were against Cleveland. HELL NO. We never should have tanked this season. It was a disgrace to do that to the season ticket holders, the fans , the players, and the coaching staff. Is that clear enough? This was a golden opportunity that was thrown away in favor of some analytical genius self proclaimed saviors. Giving up with one third of a season left is not the epitome of being a Minnesota Twins fan has ever included. Believe Dat.

[Channing1964]

Which are you suggesting?

1) The Twins are lying about the injection Santana received in his finger?

2) The Twins forced Santana to have a medical procedure done, against his will, for the sole purpose of shutting him down as a form of punishment?

 

Both are extremely far fetched, enough so that perhaps you should step back and ask yourself if you are being completely objective in your evaluation of them.

Ok i have stepped back and i feel the same way. Perhaps you should read this...http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24355789 and then watch the video. God forbid we should want any "Winners" around. I beg to differ that those injections could have waited until the off season. If you could ask him, he would rather have had the opportunity to work through it and finish the season.

[Channing1964]

I think this is the hardest part about running any organization. I run a law firm and we are always walking that fine line between being a "family" and empowering people, and being more cold hearted and managing based solely on results. The problem with the family feel and completely empowering people is that some then feel empowered to not work very hard or be very productive. They then are shocked or resentful when their effort and results are called into question and more importantly, they become very resistent to change. After all, no one will call me out or fire me, we're a family! On the other hand, if you manage just based on results some people will feel "just like a number", become resentful, and the Firm culture suffers and can take the business with it. My guess would be that many of the Twins employees who "feel like a number" are older and/or more resistant to change and feel like they should be able to continue to do what they've always done the way they've always done it and that should be good enough. I really think that was the old regimes biggest weakness - they were far too resistant to necessary change. The business world has changed a lot in the last few years and the Twins got left behind. Significant change was necessary.

 

I'm sure Falvey and Levine are trying to manage the Twins organization with a positive culture that reward contributions and results while at the same time holds everyone accountable for their performance, all while instituting the significant necessary changes to compete in a rapidly changing business environment like baseball (and law, for that matter). Good luck with that. That is one tall order and I wish them the best of luck. It's a very tough one to pull off. 5 years is a good timeline to see if they can pull this off with the Twins and show the results on the field. Two years isn't nearly enough time to make the changes the Twins organization needed.

I cant speak for the management skills of the front office but it would seem to me that nobody would be happy to hear.." Thad and I are thankful for this opportunity to build this franchise from scratch and i promise you Twins Fan in five years we will have a shot at playing .500 ball" There are different layers of players that were inherited by this regime. Those that were fan favorites that were at or near 30 and due for a new contract. The Sano,Buxton,Berrios class of guys that basically came up together and then the really young guys who we have time to address before a decision has to be made, and/or the older dudes that can be replaced easily. Is this what we can expect? Every Spring a new class of cant miss A and AA guys trot out, make a splash and fade into the woodwork. We talk about what a shrewd business move it was to dump a potential big money contract for three or four or five blue chip suspects. Meanwhile, we get to watch our favorite hometown heroes like the Escobars and Doziers (that we were so smart to dump just in time) compete for rings each and every year. Dang this is reminding me so much of the Calvin Griffith era that its .....sickening. I can see how the business of baseball has changed. Isn't the main source of revenue still ticket sales? at $1,100 a seat for the cheapest season ticket who is going to wait five years to see a competitive team on the field. That is whats so unrealistic about any 5 year plan. Every other team is trying to win. They recognize opportunities to make a run at the playoffs and take a shot. Why do we have to suffer through anybody's Five Year Plan? I dont see it...Never will. Nobody gives me five years to be mildly successful at my job. Edited September 13, 2018 by Channing1964

[Mr. Brooks]

Ok i have stepped back and i feel the same way. Perhaps you should read this...http://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/24355789 and then watch the video. God forbid we should want any "Winners" around. I beg to differ that those injections could have waited until the off season. If you could ask him, he would rather have had the opportunity to work through it and finish the season.

So you are going with #2. The Twins forced him to get a medical procedure against his will.

The good news for him is that he should get many times his lifetime earnings in the lawsuit. And, I'd expect prison time for those involved as well.