Article: Twins Daily Roundtable: Grading Molitor

[jimmer]

 

Can you be sure that Molitor wasn't in the room advocating Grossman on the roster? 

 

I can't... so I'm not comfortable with "stuck". 

 

I'd like to blame Molitor or the front office for everything but I can't be sure where the decisions we see are coming from. 

The manager can advocate for a player all they want but the overall decision lies with the FO.

[Riverbrian]

 

The manager can advocate for a player all they want but the overall decision lies with the FO.

 

Understood... I've often said... you gotta look at the people who hire the people. 

 

Still not comfortable with the word "stuck". 

[jimmer]

 

Understood... I've often said... you gotta look at the people who hire the people. 

 

Still not comfortable with the word "stuck". 

It's just like players want to play all the time,  the manager decides who plays. Like when Punto got WAY more starts than he probably should have had, that was on Gardy.  Can't blame Punto for playing so much.

Edited August 26, 2018 by jimmer

[twinfan]

I give Molitor a C+ for his career. As for this year, I give him a B- because he has done all he could to keep this team from being 52-78 at this point- considering what we have lost over the season in terms of manpower. Heck, the last I looked we were only 7 games under .500. While that is not what we want, it isn't the worst possible scenario. Yes, the bullpen is overworked but show me a team whose bullpen isn't. What I do not understand is why a reliever cannot work 2 innings instead of just one. THAT overworks any pen. we could do better but we could also do worse. The players seem to believe in him and that is big. What we need are better players since we traded away 2 of them. I blame management much more than I do Molly.

[Riverbrian]

 

It's just like players want to play all the time,  the manager decides who plays. Like when Punto got WAY more starts than he probably should have had, that was on Gardy.  Can't blame Punto for playing so much.

 

I look at this way. A baseball front office runs much differently than how I run my fantasy baseball team. 

 

I am willing to bet my house that Terry Ryan authorized the signing of players that he has never seen on the advice of someone else. I believe I'll still be living in my house because I've heard him on the radio say that he hadn't seen a player before he was added to the roster so it's a pretty safe bet for me. 

 

I've heard Falvey say that they take a committee approach to decisions and I got to believe that Molitor is part of that committee. If a manager says I want this guy and the GM says... No. 

 

That is the beginning of the end and I imagine the same goes in reverse.

 

We all saw what happened when Philip Seymour Hoffman wouldn't play Scott Hatteberg. Hoffman was out and his next movie only did 28 Million at the box office. 

[ashbury]

We all saw what happened when Philip Seymour Hoffman wouldn't play Scott Hatteberg.

Philip Seymour Hoffman was too old to take the role of an athlete, even a first baseman, at that point in his career.

[The Wise One]

 

I look at this way. A baseball front office runs much differently than how I run my fantasy baseball team. 

 

I am willing to bet my house that Terry Ryan authorized the signing of players that he has never seen on the advice of someone else. I believe I'll still be living in my house because I've heard him on the radio say that he hadn't seen a player before he was added to the roster so it's a pretty safe bet for me. 

 

I've heard Falvey say that they take a committee approach to decisions and I got to believe that Molitor is part of that committee. If a manager says I want this guy and the GM says... No. 

 

That is the beginning of the end and I imagine the same goes in reverse.

 

We all saw what happened when Philip Seymour Hoffman wouldn't play Scott Hatteberg. Hoffman was out and his next movie only did 28 Million at the box office. 

He played Art Howe, a more fitting role for him.  His next film released was Ides of March, which had a 77 million worldwide box office, which was good for a small budget film

[Riverbrian]

 

He played Art Howe, a more fitting role for him.  His next film released was Ides of March, which had a 77 million worldwide box office, which was good for a small budget film

 

Yeah but none of that stuff fits with my joke. 

[Don Walcott]

Can you be sure that Molitor wasn't in the room advocating Grossman on the roster?

 

I can't... so I'm not comfortable with "stuck".

 

I'd like to blame Molitor or the front office for everything but I can't be sure where the decisions we see are coming from.

If the FO sat in a room with Molitor all offseason and decided against going after a free agent to replace Grossman on the roster because Molitor advocated for him, I’m very disappointed in the FO.

[The Wise One]

 

Yeah but none of that stuff fits with my joke. 

sign of the times. 

[The Wise One]

 

If the FO sat in a room with Molitor all offseason and decided against going after a free agent to replace Grossman on the roster because Molitor advocated for him, I’m very disappointed in the FO.

Only if they were doing a better job than last time they signed someone who was a DH type should you be disappointed that they did not replace Grossman, even if he was at his 100 plus OPS+ peak

[Riverbrian]

If the FO sat in a room with Molitor all offseason and decided against going after a free agent to replace Grossman on the roster because Molitor advocated for him, I’m very disappointed in the FO.

I can tolerate mistakes.

 

I can’t tolerate doubling down on the mistake. If Grossman was selected to make the 25 man. He should have played more with Morrison and Buxton both playing extremely bad. If Grossman isn’t good enough to play in front of that type of performance... then I’m extremely disappointed with the entire room.

[wsnydes]

If the FO sat in a room with Molitor all offseason and decided against going after a free agent to replace Grossman on the roster because Molitor advocated for him, I’m very disappointed in the FO.

But you're okay with Molitor advocating for him? Seems like both would share blame in that scenario.

[jimmer]

 

But you're okay with Molitor advocating for him? Seems like both would share blame in that scenario.

The only thing we know for sure is that the FO kept him on the team.

[jimmer]

WOW! He hit that far!

[wsnydes]

The only thing we know for sure is that the FO kept him on the team.

Agreed, but his scenario included Molitor not wanting to upgrade either. So why does he not share in the blame in that scenario?

[jimmer]

 

Agreed, but his scenario included Molitor not wanting to upgrade either. So why does he not share in the blame in that scenario?

He definitely would

[Don Walcott]

 

But you're okay with Molitor advocating for him? Seems like both would share blame in that scenario.

I didn't say I would be okay with Molitor advocating for Grossman. But, assuming he did, the advocacy would have had to have been at Clarence Darrow levels for me to excuse the FO for making that decision because of Molitor's advocacy.

 

We don't actually know who advocated for Grossman, but as Jimmer said, we do know for sure that the FO kept him on the team. And they didn't have to keep him if they didn't want him. Molitor, on the other hand, doesn't have that authority, nor that responsibility.

 

Of course, if you want to make roster construction Molitor's fault in addition to managerial responsibilities, then there's no argument that he's been terrible. I choose not to criticize Molitor for GM responsibilities unless and until they give him a new job title.

[Don Walcott]

 

 

I can tolerate mistakes.

I can’t tolerate doubling down on the mistake. If Grossman was selected to make the 25 man. He should have played more with Morrison and Buxton both playing extremely bad. If Grossman isn’t good enough to play in front of that type of performance... then I’m extremely disappointed with the entire room.

I don't recall saying anything about Molitor's use of Grossman as opposed to Morrison and Buxton.

 

In an attempt to be clear, all I said was that it wasn't Molitor's fault that he has Grossman on the team, and that having Grossman in and of itself is very limiting to a manager. And just in case that point is not clear, it's because Grossman is very limited defensively and doesn't make up for his defensive limitations with anything special offensively.

[wsnydes]

I didn't say I would be okay with Molitor advocating for Grossman. But, assuming he did, the advocacy would have had to have been at Clarence Darrow levels for me to excuse the FO for making that decision because of Molitor's advocacy.

 

We don't actually know who advocated for Grossman, but as Jimmer said, we do know for sure that the FO kept him on the team. And they didn't have to keep him if they didn't want him. Molitor, on the other hand, doesn't have that authority, nor that responsibility.

 

Of course, if you want to make roster construction Molitor's fault in addition to managerial responsibilities, then there's no argument that he's been terrible. I choose not to criticize Molitor for GM responsibilities unless and until they give him a new job title.

That's certainly the vibe you put out with your comment. I'm simply reacting to what you typed.

 

I don't put much blame on Molitor for roster construction, but I find it hard to believe that he has no input. The two entities should be on the same page and working together, not independent of each other. It's a team sport, and the team does extend beyond the personnel on the field. They all hold responsibility for what happens on the field. Each is simply a different cog in the machine. If Molitor was advocating for a player, why would the FO take the time and effort to replace a guy the manager was happy with? Certainly not all of the blame goes to Molitor, but some most certainly has to in that scenario.

Edited August 26, 2018 by wsnydes

[Don Walcott]

 

I don't put much blame on Molitor for roster construction, but I find it hard to believe that he has no input. The two entities should be on the same page and working together, not independent of each other. It's a team sport, and the team does extend beyond the personnel on the field. They all hold responsibility for what happens on the field. Each is simply a different cog in the machine.

If I have a legal assistant or paralegal or associate attorney working with me on a case, I like to have their input and I listen to their opinions. If I base a strategic decision on their advice and it doesn't work, I don't blame them, I blame myself.

 

I'm not sure why people imply that Molitor had anything to do with keeping Grossman and bringing back Belisle. But even assuming that was the case, I don't blame Molitor, I blame the FO.

 

And for all we know, Molitor was entirely against signing Logan Morrison, and nobody listened to him . . . .

 

[howieramone2]

 

I don't recall saying anything about Molitor's use of Grossman as opposed to Morrison and Buxton.

 

In an attempt to be clear, all I said was that it wasn't Molitor's fault that he has Grossman on the team, and that having Grossman in and of itself is very limiting to a manager. And just in case that point is not clear, it's because Grossman is very limited defensively and doesn't make up for his defensive limitations with anything special offensively.

Grossman is a serviceable outfielder. Far better than board favorite Arcia when he was stumbling around Target Field. For the 3rd year in a row Grossman has done a solid job, and is no worse than the average 4th outfielder. One of these days he will get beat out in ST, as they will bring in a fair amount of competition every year, which is a it should be. You're not going to get a Trout-type as a 4th outfielder and Wade and Granite are AAAA only.

Edited August 26, 2018 by howieramone2

[wsnydes]

If I have a legal assistant or paralegal or associate attorney working with me on a case, I like to have their input and I listen to their opinions. If I base a strategic decision on their advice and it doesn't work, I don't blame them, I blame myself.

 

I'm not sure why people imply that Molitor had anything to do with keeping Grossman and bringing back Belisle. But even assuming that was the case, I don't blame Molitor, I blame the FO.

 

And for all we know, Molitor was entirely against signing Logan Morrison, and nobody listened to him . . . .

Fair enough and well put.

 

I'd add that if I have an employee that actually advocates for something they already have, I'm not going to replace it with something else. I'd certainly shoulder much of the blame in that case, but the employee wouldn't be without fault either. I'm not suggesting they should be fired over it, but it's certainly something that would be discussed.

 

I think the Belisle stuff is because there is simply no other reason to bring him back. None. Since he was a favorite of Molitor last year, it seems reasonable to suggest that he wanted him back. Does the FO share the blame, certainly. Obviously we don't know what transpired, so one can only look at the FO.

[Riverbrian]

 

I don't recall saying anything about Molitor's use of Grossman as opposed to Morrison and Buxton.

 

In an attempt to be clear, all I said was that it wasn't Molitor's fault that he has Grossman on the team, and that having Grossman in and of itself is very limiting to a manager. And just in case that point is not clear, it's because Grossman is very limited defensively and doesn't make up for his defensive limitations with anything special offensively.

 

It was I that brought up Morrison and Buxton... To be clear... I don't recall you ever bringing up Morrison and Buxton. 

[Riverbrian]

 

That's certainly the vibe you put out with your comment. I'm simply reacting to what you typed.

I don't put much blame on Molitor for roster construction, but I find it hard to believe that he has no input. The two entities should be on the same page and working together, not independent of each other. It's a team sport, and the team does extend beyond the personnel on the field. They all hold responsibility for what happens on the field. Each is simply a different cog in the machine. If Molitor was advocating for a player, why would the FO take the time and effort to replace a guy the manager was happy with? Certainly not all of the blame goes to Molitor, but some most certainly has to in that scenario.

 

It's the same page thing that has me the most perplexed. 

 

If the roles are sharply defined. If the GM is in charge of the roster and the manager manages the provided roster. There has to be communication at every step of the process between them. 

 

A GM can't independently trade Jose Berrios for Paul Goldschmidt only to find that the manager doesn't believe in Paul Goldschmidt and won't play him. That would be giving away Berrios. 

 

They say decisions are done by committee... I believe them. 

[Riverbrian]

 

If I have a legal assistant or paralegal or associate attorney working with me on a case, I like to have their input and I listen to their opinions. If I base a strategic decision on their advice and it doesn't work, I don't blame them, I blame myself.

 

I'm not sure why people imply that Molitor had anything to do with keeping Grossman and bringing back Belisle. But even assuming that was the case, I don't blame Molitor, I blame the FO.

 

And for all we know, Molitor was entirely against signing Logan Morrison, and nobody listened to him . . . .

 

Yes, you would take the blame but you might be inclined to not rely on their counsel the next time in an attempt to not make the same mistake again. 

 

The front office can and should take the blame but they also need to correct it for the future. 

 

Although... I've said this many times... I have no idea who is suggesting what. So this all goes strictly into the hypothetical pile. 

 

 

[wsnydes]

It's the same page thing that has me the most perplexed.

 

If the roles are sharply defined. If the GM is in charge of the roster and the manager manages the provided roster. There has to be communication at every step of the process between them.

 

A GM can't independently trade Jose Berrios for Paul Goldschmidt only to find that the manager doesn't believe in Paul Goldschmidt and won't play him. That would be giving away Berrios.

 

They say decisions are done by committee... I believe them.

Exactly. I expect Molitor to have plenty of say in roster decisions. The FO has ultimate decision making power, but it makes little sense for them to make a move without consulting their manager. I have a very hard time believing that Belisle was brought in by only the FO for instance. If I were the GM, I want to know that who I want to bring in will be well received and that the manager knows how he wants to use said player. That goes with Grossman too. I don't believe that Molitor feels that he's stuck with him. I believe that Molitor is asking for guys like Belisle. He may have good reasoning, clubhouse presence or whatever, but that doesn't absolve the FO from culpability when things go astray either.

 

Obviously since we don't have the inside knowledge to know who is making what decision based on what info, the FO takes the heat rightfully. But I'm not in the camp that feels that Molitor is blameless with any of it, especially when it comes to the roster that heads north out of spring training.

 

***Edited for spelling.

Edited August 26, 2018 by wsnydes

[Riverbrian]

 

Exactly. I expect Molitor to have plenty of say in roster decisions. The FO has ultimate decision making power, but it makes little sense for them to make a move without consulting their manager. I have a very hard time believing that Belisle was brought in by only the FO for instance. If I were the GM, I want to know that who I want to bring in will be well received and that the manager knows how he wants to use said player. That goes with Grossman too. I don't believe that Molitor feels that he's stuck with him. I believe that Molitor is asking for guys like Belisle. He may have good reasoning, clubhouse presence or whatever, but that doesn't absolve the FO from culpability when things go astray either.

Obviously since we don't have the inside knowledge to know who is making what decision based in what info, the FO takes the heat rightfully. But I'm not in the camp that feels that Molitor is blameless with any of it, especially when it comes to the roster that heads north out of spring training.

 

We are 100% on the same page. 

 

[Mike Sixel]

Sacrifice bunt in inning 4? Sign me up!

[wsnydes]

We are 100% on the same page.

Much like I hope the FO and Molitor are. Unfortunately I don't believe that, but I hope that I'm wrong.

 

Plus, if they're on the same page I can legitimately blame all of them.

Edited August 26, 2018 by wsnydes