Article: Twins Daily Roundtable: Grading Molitor

[Minfidel]

 

I don't care that Austin has struggled against righties, Grossman is not part of the future, Austin might be. 

Grossman is a good role player, as long as the role isn't too big. He takes good at-bats. I said at the beginning of the year that a good team can use 150-200 at-bats from a guy like Grossman over the course of the year; a bad team gives him more than 200. Um, let's see...yep, the Twins this year are a bad team.

[S.]

 

I don't hear Molitor yelling to the players "Take 3rd base, right now! I don't care if you screw up!!" Why are the 1st and 3rd base coaches absolved of this criticism?

Can you quantify if his bullpen management and lineup selection is atrocious compared to other managers? Or is he just not playing your favorites?

The fact is he is the manager. If his team constantly makes stupid errors on the base paths and in the field, which they do, then he should be remedying the situation in practices. There is no excuse for the amount of embarrassing play we've had this year. These are professional baseball players. Yes, they make mental mistakes sometimes and that is to be expected once in a while, but the last 2 games have been full of plays that would be getting players on high school teams benched. And no where did I absolve any of the base coaches, but they aren't the ones running the show in practice and in games. They are base coaches. How are they to blame that our team is playing like a bunch of little leaguers and don't know how to do a basic run down? How are they to blame for Garver standing there and not throwing to any base today? If the base coaches are the ones responsible for base running management in practice, then they are absolutely to blame for that too.

 

And this isn't absolving the players either because they're at fault too, but if a manager can't get his team to do simple **** that even a little league coach would expect their team to be able to do, then that is on him too. How many times this season has Rosario thrown to the wrong base? How many times have we made stupid mistakes on the bases? How many times in the last two games have our players looked like they have 0 clue what they're supposed to do with the ball in the field?

 

If the manager isn't responsible for any of that, then what exactly is it that Molitor does besides give canned statements to the media?

[yarnivek1972]

I don't hear Molitor yelling to the players "Take 3rd base, right now! I don't care if you screw up!!" Why are the 1st and 3rd base coaches absolved of this criticism?

 

Can you quantify if his bullpen management and lineup selection is atrocious compared to other managers? Or is he just not playing your favorites?

Isn’t that what W/L record kinda does?

[S.]

 

Isn’t that what W/L record kinda does?

To be fair, the roster definitely plays into that too. And various other factors. But anyone who has watched a lot of Twins games this season knows that Molitor completely overuses some bullpen arms and completely neglects others. And its not like he kept going to some top tier RP in high leverage situations, he kept going to Matt Belisle. 

[Vanimal46]

Isn’t that what W/L record kinda does?

If people think this team can finish .500 this year they'll be .500 or better in 3 of his 4 seasons. Something that hasn't been accomplished this decade.

 

If you're Falvine asking for a new manager, Jim will ask what that person does differently than Molitor. And why is that worth the rest of Molitor's salary plus the salary of the new manager?

 

How can Falvine quantify that?

[S.]

 

If people think this team can finish .500 this year they'll be .500 or better in 3 of his 4 seasons. Something that hasn't been accomplished this decade.

If you're Falvine asking for a new manager, Jim will ask what that person does differently than Molitor. And why is that worth the rest of Molitor's salary plus the salary of the new manager?

How can Falvine quantify that?

The goal isn't to be a .500 team though. The goal is to win the world series or at the very least make a strong playoff run (getting swept in the first round or mashed in the wild card doesn't count as a "run"). Being .500 isn't an accomplishment. Are we supposed to be proud of the fact that we still suck but not quite as bad as we used to suck? Is that supposed to be a strong point in the argument of keeping Molitor? Well, we still aren't doing anything good but boy, oh boy, we almost were .500 in a division that is so bad that we're soundly in second place.

[Vanimal46]

The fact is he is the manager. If his team constantly makes stupid errors on the base paths and in the field, which they do, then he should be remedying the situation in practices. There is no excuse for the amount of embarrassing play we've had this year. These are professional baseball players. Yes, they make mental mistakes sometimes and that is to be expected once in a while, but the last 2 games have been full of plays that would be getting players on high school teams benched. And no where did I absolve any of the base coaches, but they aren't the ones running the show in practice and in games. They are base coaches. How are they to blame that our team is playing like a bunch of little leaguers and don't know how to do a basic run down? How are they to blame for Garver standing there and not throwing to any base today? If the base coaches are the ones responsible for base running management in practice, then they are absolutely to blame for that too.

 

And this isn't absolving the players either because they're at fault too, but if a manager can't get his team to do simple **** that even a little league coach would expect their team to be able to do, then that is on him too. How many times this season has Rosario thrown to the wrong base? How many times have we made stupid mistakes on the bases? How many times in the last two games have our players looked like they have 0 clue what they're supposed to do with the ball in the field?

 

If the manager isn't responsible for any of that, then what exactly is it that Molitor does besides give canned statements to the media?

Your last paragraph is the crux of my argument. What exactly does a manager do? What value do they provide during a game?

 

They're not the ones making stupid baserunning mistakes, and throwing to the wrong base. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink it.

 

If Molitor is sitting in his office streaming Netflix instead of instructing his players on fundamentals, we can raise pitch forks. I'm going to assume Molitor is a professional and does everything he can to win a game.

 

Baseball has been around for 100+ years, and millions of fans have debated this topic. Yet no one has come up with a way to measure and quantify what a manager does.

 

In the past there was more strategic moves made by a manager. Now we're in the three true outcomes era, and their strategic hunches are going away. Now their strategy is, "Hey, try to hit a home run here. Or take a walk."

[Vanimal46]

The goal isn't to be a .500 team though. The goal is to win the world series or at the very least make a strong playoff run (getting swept in the first round or mashed in the wild card doesn't count as a "run"). Being .500 isn't an accomplishment. Are we supposed to be proud of the fact that we still suck but not quite as bad as we used to suck? Is that supposed to be a strong point in the argument of keeping Molitor? Well, we still aren't doing anything good but boy, oh boy, we almost were .500 in a division that is so bad that we're soundly in second place.

That's your goal to win a World Series. My goal is to be competitive and make the playoffs. We don't know what Mr. Pohlad's goal is.

[S.]

 

Your last paragraph is the crux of my argument. What exactly does a manager do? What value do they provide during a game?

If a manager cannot get professional players who have made it to the MLB to play baseball at a fundamental level that you would expect from high school players, then he is a bad manager. Either he is incapable of providing coaching to the players, or the players no longer listen to him. Either way, that is not a manager I want. Obviously, that is my opinion and people can argue it is all on the players and the manager has 0 impact, but these are pro players. They all know how to play at a fundamental level or they would not have made it to the majors. If they continuously fail to do so, then to me that implies there is a problem at the core of things. And the manager is the core of things when it comes to coaching and training and fixing problems.

 

That's your goal to win a World Series. My goal is to be competitive and make the playoffs. We don't know what Mr. Pohlad's goal is.

I guess we have different definitions of competitive, because in my opinion competitive means you can compete with good teams. In the last 15 years we've been 2-15 in the playoffs. That is not competitive.

 

 

Edit: I assume it is a given, but since these types of threads tend to end up with opinions running pretty hot, I figured I'd mention that none of this is a knock on you, and lots of posters on this board have different goals, expectations and points of view, none of which are necessarily right or wrong. Probably doesn't need to be said, but figured it might be worth mentioning because I've seen plenty of other threads like this turn a bit more personal than they should. AKA, I disagree with you but I respect your right to your opinion.

Edited August 22, 2018 by S.

[old nurse]

 

Austin has an .833 OPS against RH starting pitching, which is better than his hitting against LH starters. He struggles against RH relievers, probably because RH relievers tend to throw harder.

 

 

I hear that the Chicago starter last night throws pretty hard. hmmm Austin sits. Rodon not as hard, Austin plays

[Thrylos]

Here is my beef with Molitor:

 

- He lost the clubhouse.  This has been a very unmotivated team.

- He has been playing favorites.  For example, he kept a sub .300 OBP guy hitting lead off for 3 months, because that was his preference

- Bullpen usage has been bizarre to say the least.

 

That said, I'd take him over Gardenhire any day of the week.

Still, he has to go.  The Twins need some new blood, preferably outside the organization and preferably with a huge aversion to losing games

Edited August 22, 2018 by Thrylos

[Vanimal46]

If a manager cannot get professional players who have made it to the MLB to play baseball at a fundamental level that you would expect from high school players, then he is a bad manager. Either he is incapable of providing coaching to the players, or the players no longer listen to him. Either way, that is not a manager I want. Obviously, that is my opinion and people can argue it is all on the players and the manager has 0 impact, but these are pro players. They all know how to play at a fundamental level or they would not have made it to the majors. If they continuously fail to do so, then to me that implies there is a problem at the core of things. And the manager is the core of things when it comes to coaching and training and fixing problems.

 

I don't know if the players stopped listening to him. That's a judgment call for Pohlad to make. If true, that's a reason for firing him. I assume Molitor is a professional and is providing feedback for his players.

 

Are the fundamental errors more than the average team? How much responsibility falls on the manager vs. the player himself? MLB caliber players as you said know the fundamentals, and they should be able to do it day in, day out, regardless of the manager.

 

As far as coaching, training, and fixing problems, that's also not just on the manager. Especially in this era of baseball. Wasn't it Falvine that drew up the plan to fix Sano earlier this season? They have an analytics team to dig up video and data to help coach, train, and fix problems.

[yarnivek1972]

If people think this team can finish .500 this year they'll be .500 or better in 3 of his 4 seasons. Something that hasn't been accomplished this decade.

 

If you're Falvine asking for a new manager, Jim will ask what that person does differently than Molitor. And why is that worth the rest of Molitor's salary plus the salary of the new manager?

 

How can Falvine quantify that?

Overall, he’s 227-259.

[jimmer]

Two things about his bullpen management.

 

First, fans from every team rag on how thier managers utilize the pen. Just need to spend some time on other boards to see that.

 

Second, we shouldn't pretend he was given a lot of talent in the bullpen to begin with.

[Vanimal46]

I guess we have different definitions of competitive, because in my opinion competitive means you can compete with good teams. In the last 15 years we've been 2-15 in the playoffs. That is not competitive.

 

 

Edit: I assume it is a given, but since these types of threads tend to end up with opinions running pretty hot, I figured I'd mention that none of this is a knock on you, and lots of posters on this board have different goals, expectations and points of view, none of which are necessarily right or wrong. Probably doesn't need to be said, but figured it might be worth mentioning because I've seen plenty of other threads like this turn a bit more personal than they should. AKA, I disagree with you but I respect your right to your opinion.

That's the beauty of fandom! We all have our own expectations. As far as the playoff failures, I place that burden more on the higher ups... The manager can only play what's on his roster. It's up to ownership and GM to take chances and sacrifice some of the future when the team has a chance to win it all...

 

No hard feelings at all, btw. I enjoy these types of discussions a lot more than talking about why Bobby Wilson is on roster.

Edited August 23, 2018 by Vanimal46

[Vanimal46]

Overall, he’s 227-259.

A total system failure will do that to your overall record.

 

83 wins in 2015

Total System Failure

85 wins last year

?? this year

[Teflon]

Unless the MLB equivalent of Steve Kerr is just sitting out there somewhere, replacing Molitor isn't the most pressing concern facing this team. (Or necessarily a concern at all.)

 

This Twins' front office philosophy has looked to emulate an Astros-type model built around a core of high draft picks that the team can control for a number of years. I don't know why this should be lauded as it is definitely the least work and cheapest thing an organization can do.

 

1. Suck for a number of years.

2. Stockpile a lot of high draft choices 

3. Develop them (The only aspect that requires skill or effort)

4  Sit back and control their MLB careers for six years.

 

Unfortunately, the part involving the skill and effort the Twins appear to be reasonably bad at. We've waited long enough, haven't we?

 

More than a manager change, the front office needs a philosophical change. They may have begun to show an admission of these shortcomings with the number of minor league players from other organizations that they've been adding. Additionally, the front office should now be a lot more willing to trade higher-ceiling prospects for lower-ceiling established players. I realize this adds more opportunity to look bad as a GM and requires more deft maneuvering than just sucking, drafting and waiting. Hopefully this front office is as impatient as we are.

[mikelink45]

Molitor C - Front off F.  Who creates the roster?  Who sets teh 25 and 40 man lists?  Who signs Belisle, Motter, Lamatte, Grossman, Lynn, Reed, Rodney, Duke, Odorizzi, Morrison?  

 

I think Managers are only there to post a lineup and keep everyone on an even keel.  There is only so much to be done.  How many coaches are there and what do they do?  

 

On another entry I posted - I think our problem is that we are homers - we think our team is better than it really is.We are five games below 500 but we have played the Orioles and are 6 - 1, the Tigers where we are 7-6, the White Sox 9 - 6, and KC 6 - 6. We are 28 - 19 against these terrible teams.I will let you do the math with the rest. team has one player challenging 300. 

I know we like our team, but we stink.Today we messed up in the field, on the mound and at bat.It is who we are.We rank 10th in pitching in the AL, 8th in hitting, and 8th in fielding.We are 12 in homeruns, 11 in slugging.How do we expect anything more than where we are?

 

we can pretend that we have some real talent, but nothing really stands out.Blame Molitor if you want, but that is not going to make a difference.Blame the FO - they give us the roster.

 

I think this is significant to the discussion.  

 

What did the FO give Aaron Boone?  Is he a better manager?  

 

How managers have been hired and fired in the history of MLB and how many of them have been hired and hired and hired?   Billy Martin was hired five times by the Yankees alone.  What does that mean?  

 

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/when-it-comes-to-firing-mlb-managers-nobody-really-knows-what-they-are-doing/    It is the most difficult job to judge and no one judges it well.  Was Casey Stengal the Mets losing manager or the Yankees championship manager?  

 

I would want to work in the front office, no one holds them accountable, rather than in the dugout. 

 

Is Molitor a good or bad manager?  Noone knows although everyone thinks they do?  Would you want Sam Mele?  Was Gardenhire as good as his good teams or as bad as his bad teams?  The same with Tom Kelly.  

 

So step up Falvey and Levine.  Give Molitor truly good players and then we can judge, otherwise, my thought is that you two are the ones who have screwed up. 

[BJames]

I go with a D,  Mostly because of the use of Sano and Morrison in the Middle of the line-up every day. Two guys back to back in the Middle of the order struggling to hit .200  WHY did it take so long to get the better hitters together?  Yes on paper it Looks good, but it wasn't working, so you have to make changes.  Also, the lack of any moving runner into scoring position, either by stealing or hit and run.  Molitor also, seem to lack any feel for players being Hot or Cold.  He missed his chance with LaMarre when he was hot, the little use of Gaver and the overuse of relief pitchers that were cold while other Hot pitchers sat.  To me he managed like he had favorites and the favorites were failing and he just sat and watched, running the same team and line-up out there every day.  I saw little Managing.  But most of all playing Morrison EVERY DAY and batting him in the Middle of the order expecting a different result all the way through July???? Mostly the lack of using the Roster propery. 

[BJames]

For those posting the players are making dumb plays, what is the Manager to do.  Well, I remember Reggie Jackson not chasing down a ball he misplayed.  What did Billy Martin do?  He ran in a new outfielder and jerked Jackson out of the game in the middle of the inning.  That ended up in a fight between the two.  Now, I'm not saying that's the thing to do, but a little discipline is needed. Small fines by the players could go on to without us knowing.  In the end the Manager puts together the Line-up and handles pitching changes, with a little strategy mixed in. 

[nicksaviking]

I'm just tired of the inconsistency, not just year-to-year, but month-to-month. They hit some high points on occasion but I don't think well managed teams bottom out so deeply and as often as this one.

 

And where the heck is the energy at? I remember when Vargas and Arcia and Danny Santana got up here and they were hanging at the top step of the dugout laughing and cheering every game even though the team stunk.

[Platoon]

As for JP naming the manager? There's an old saying that a lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client. An owner who is his own GM has a fool for a GM. I would think Falvey would be sending out his resume if he would want to remove Molitor and couldn't. If I was gonna sink or swim in a job, I would want my own guy.

[yarnivek1972]

For those posting the players are making dumb plays, what is the Manager to do. Well, I remember Reggie Jackson not chasing down a ball he misplayed. What did Billy Martin do? He ran in a new outfielder and jerked Jackson out of the game in the middle of the inning. That ended up in a fight between the two. Now, I'm not saying that's the thing to do, but a little discipline is needed. Small fines by the players could go on to without us knowing. In the end the Manager puts together the Line-up and handles pitching changes, with a little strategy mixed in.

That works when you have probably a 9 or 10 man pitching staff and therefore 6 or 7 bench players. That becomes extremely difficult to do with a 3 man bench.

[yarnivek1972]

A total system failure will do that to your overall record.

 

83 wins in 2015

Total System Failure

85 wins last year

?? this year

Shouldn’t Molitor shoulder some of the responsibility for that total system failure?

 

Were it not for Jim Pohlad publicly saying Molitor was safe, he probably would have been fired two years ago.

 

More to the point, if it had been Derek Falvey’s decision, he probably would have been fired two years ago.

Edited August 23, 2018 by yarnivek1972

[Vanimal46]

As for JP naming the manager? There's an old saying that a lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client. An owner who is his own GM has a fool for a GM. I would think Falvey would be sending out his resume if he would want to remove Molitor and couldn't. If I was gonna sink or swim in a job, I would want my own guy.

Only 30 GM jobs in the league, and every organization has their quirks. The owner having a close, personal friend as his preference for manager isn't all that bad... You could be reporting into Stuart Sternberg, owner of the Rays!

[TheLeviathan]

I think it's worth pointing out that the Twins last year over-achieved, made the playoffs, and did a number of things very well after an awful season and the general consensus on this board was to give him little or no credit for that.  Molitor could lead them to a 40-0 record the rest of the way, nearly win the World Series, and there would be many here who would still denigrate him.

 

Perhaps we've lost the ability to be objective and should leave it to the people who actually see what he does day to day.   We see a tiny fraction of what a manager does in today's game.

[yarnivek1972]

As for JP naming the manager? There's an old saying that a lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client. An owner who is his own GM has a fool for a GM. I would think Falvey would be sending out his resume if he would want to remove Molitor and couldn't. If I was gonna sink or swim in a job, I would want my own guy.

I would be surprised, no stunned, if 90% of pro team owners didn’t have final say over head coach/manager. That’s literally the public face of the team. He’s the guy in front of the camera before and after almost every game. He is on the sidelines for every game.

 

Do I have inside info that this is the case? Of course not. And I’ll bet you don’t either. But ask yourself which makes more sense and which is their greater evidence of?

[Shaitan]

I love this team's fight. They seem to never give up. I'm not sure if that's on Molitor.

 

Naming specific things he does well that I can see on my end of things? I'm not sure of any. Fundamentals are a mess, the lineups are often bizarre (but they've grown on me this year), and his overworking the bullpen is obvious to everyone but him. While it's possible that Hildenberger and Rogers, for example, are streaky, I think their inconsistencies are more likely because of how often he uses them.

[yarnivek1972]

When I am asked how a manager impacts the game, I like to say that a GOOD manager puts his players in position to succeed. He doesn’t, for example, continually use Taylor Rogers against RHB in winnable games.

 

He also doesn’t do this:

 

 

http://www.espn.com/mlb/game?gameId=380714109

Edited August 23, 2018 by yarnivek1972

[Shaitan]

 

Here is my beef with Molitor:

 

- He lost the clubhouse.  This has been a very unmotivated team.

 

Really? They're playing close games and have won more games than they've lost since the trade deadline. I'd say they're pretty motivated. Last year too. They could simply give up and lose every game after the deadline.

 

Admittedly, it seems to be much moreso in the second half of the season after the front office lights a fire under them. That could be on Molitor.