Article: CLE 5, MIN 2: Cleveland Prevails on Lindor Walk-Off Homer

[ewen21]

 

You will get no argument from me. 

 

My thoughts on Buxton are simple. I think he has the potential to be one of the best players in baseball but he is currently closer to one of the worst players in baseball. 

 

I will not count on him until he proves he can be counted on.

 

He earns his job from here forward.

 

I'm just plain tired of absorbing poor CF play in the name of "he's gonna be". 

I do not agree with the underlined for the simple fact that his offense is way WAY behind the curve and it simply isn't going to correct itself.  The last seven weeks of last year seems more and more like a mirage.  Subtract out that little run and his major league stats are atrocious.  I am also worried about his propensity for getting injured and the zeal with which he runs into walls.  I am having a hard time envisioning him being much more than a Jackie Bradley type.....

 

And it is funny.

When Bradley had his little spurt 2 years ago people liked to compare Buxton to him.  How come not now?  Not positive enough?

 

Let's get real with Buxton.  

[mikelink45]

 

I have over 19,000 posts on TwinsDaily and I do not have 19,000 unique thoughts so I will end up repeating myself. 

 

You need 25 guys who can play on your 25 man roster. 

 

If the manager doesn't trust any of the guys on the 25 man roster.

 

They either shouldn't be on the roster or you need a new manager with the ability to trust.  

I have no argument with that, but I still think that we need a new paradigm for relievers.  This just keeps developing - now with openers as well as closers and guaranteed daily relief pitcher use there has to be a better way of using them.  We need systems - where are the stats boys?

[Riverbrian]

 

This whole season I've found roster management frustrating ... both from the FO with call ups and moves and with the manager in his in-game management of the roster given him.

 

Yep... 2018 will end up being a blown opportunity. 

 

I want to know who to blame and I don't know the dynamic of the decision making room to be sure. I do know that It isn't as simple as blaming the players. 

[Riverbrian]

 

I do not agree with the underlined for the simple fact that his offense is way WAY behind the curve and it simply isn't going to correct itself.  The last seven weeks of last year seems more and more like a mirage.  Subtract out that little run and his major league stats are atrocious.  I am also worried about his propensity for getting injured and the zeal with which he runs into walls.  I am having a hard time envisioning him being much more than a Jackie Bradley type.....

 

And it is funny.

When Bradley had his little spurt 2 years ago people liked to compare Buxton to him.  How come not now?  Not positive enough?

 

Let's get real with Buxton.  

 

I don't know everything and I certainly don't know enough about Buxton to be sure but I believe he can turn the light on fast if he would just level out that swing. 

 

Until then... It could only be termed as irresponsible... if the Twins pencil him into the starting CF spot next year without a sufficient back up plan.

 

But... Whatever they do... Don't give up on him. The past regime moved Aaron Hicks and Carlos Gomez way too early. 

 

[Riverbrian]

 

I have no argument with that, but I still think that we need a new paradigm for relievers.  This just keeps developing - now with openers as well as closers and guaranteed daily relief pitcher use there has to be a better way of using them.  We need systems - where are the stats boys?

 

When I heard that they were experimenting with openers in Rochester, it gave me a good feeling about the front office because it shows an effort to get out in front of the curve.

 

That type of operation would be such a welcome change from the old front office being consistently behind the curve. We were one of the last teams to fully embrace metrics under the previous regime and now maybe... just maybe we won't be that type of club anymore. 

 

I agree about the bullpen, it's a new world right now and I'd like the Twins to get out of the old world. I am waiting for the changes to take place at the major league level with the Twins. I want my team to get bullpen serious.

 

[ewen21]

 

I don't know everything and I certainly don't know enough about Buxton to be sure but I believe he can turn the light on fast if he would just level out that swing. 

 

Until then... It could only be termed as irresponsible... if the Twins pencil him into the starting CF spot next year without a sufficient back up plan.

 

But... Whatever they do... Don't give up on him. The past regime moved Aaron Hicks and Carlos Gomez way too early. 

I don't think we moved on from Hicks or Gomez too early.  We got Hardy for Gomez and that was a pretty good haul.  Had we held onto Hardy we would not have bothered to think of Gomez.  Gomez is also a sideshow and he was not "Twins-like"

I also thought it was not a terrible move to trade Hicks for JR Murphy.  IT was a roll of dice and we got snake eyes.  Hicks had his chance with us and it was becoming apparent that he was not developing with this organization.  And there is the rub.

 

I am not sure if Buxton has a chance in this organization.  THere is something seriously lacking when players make the jump from the low minors to where they need to be.  He was great to talk about as a prospect and it was great to coo on and on about his "tools" and "potential"

The kid needs to put on the big boy pants and embrace the fact that he has to contribute at the major league level.  I don't know what kind of mental barrier he has put up, but there is something about him that has me concerned.  Almost like the major leagues is too big for him.  He almost acts like he is in his apprenticeship.  There are players several years younger that are more polished.  It is almost as though the Twins put him on a pedestal and believed his talents were so great he would figure it out.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2018 by ewen21

[Riverbrian]

 

I don't think we moved on from Hicks or Gomez too early.  We got Hardy for Gomez and that was a pretty good haul.  Had we held onto Hardy we would not have bothered to think of Gomez.  Gomez is also a sideshow and he was not "Twins-like"

I also thought it was not a terrible move to trade Hicks for JR Murphy.  IT was a roll of dice and we got snake eyes.  Hicks had his chance with us and it was becoming apparent that he was not developing with this organization.  And there is the rub.

 

I am not sure if Buxton has a chance in this organization.  THere is something seriously lacking when players make the jump from the low minors to where they need to be.  He was great to talk about as a prospect and it was great to coo on and on about his "tools" and "potential"

The kid needs to put on the big boy pants and embrace the fact that he has to contribute at the major league level.  I don't know what kind of mental barrier he has put up, but there is something about him that has me concerned.  Almost like the major leagues is too big for him.  He almost acts like he is in his apprenticeship.  There are players several years younger that are more polished.  It is almost as though the Twins put him on a pedestal and believed his talents were so great he would figure it out.

 

Bottom Line: Gomez and Hicks struggled mightily playing for us and then were traded and became productive elsewhere. This can only be seen as the fuzzy end of the lollipop. 

 

You can justify the addition of JJ Hardy but we didn't even get a year out of him and the same goes for John Ryan Murphy. We lost 5 tool players and we got basically nothing to hold in our hands in return and we still don't have a CF solution but we have had Mastroianni. 

 

Buxton... we are all concerned... but they need to develop him or eat him because we've seen this trade your disappointment movie before. 

 

 

 

[ewen21]

 

Bottom Line: Gomez and Hicks struggled mightily playing for us and then were traded and became productive elsewhere. This can only be seen as the fuzzy end of the lollipop. 

 

You can justify the addition of JJ Hardy but we didn't even get a year out of him and the same goes for John Ryan Murphy. We lost 5 tool players and we got basically nothing to hold in our hands in return and we still don't have a CF solution but we have had Mastroianni. 

 

Buxton... we are all concerned... but they need to develop him or eat him because we've seen this trade your disappointment movie before. 

We didn't get a year out of Hardy, not because he sucked.  Then he went on to have several good years after we traded him.  Gomez never became all that much his "five tool player" moniker notwithstanding.  You may have an argument in Hicks, but he was not going to be successful here.

 

As far as Buxton is concerned, I cannot understand where you are coming from.  Earlier you seemed to suggest you would not be against trading.  Was that "sarcasm"?

 

I am not for holding onto any player who sucks for five years.  Next year is it for me.  He has too many red flags.  He strikes out a ton, doesn't get on base, doesn't hit for average, gets lots of injuries and relies almost entirely on speed.  Where is he headed with that kind of a profile?  I am not saying GET RID OF HIM!!  

I am simply saying a) it's time to understand he likely isn't going to be great (maybe not even good) and we need to stop giving endless amounts of rope to guys just so they can hang themselves

[ThejacKmp]

 

When you to have say we aren't as bad as the Reds, Marlins and Padres to find a sliver lining you are reaching.  If this is "being positive" then I don't any part of it.  The Twins need to make tough decisions and honestly assess what they need to do.  I happen think they need to let go of both Molitor and Mauer after this season.  It is time to move on into the next era.  Needing local guys to sell the product is a Mickey Mouse approach.

 

I think you know as well as I do that I used those three teams to showcase the “hot take” by Number3. The Twins FO has been lauded by scouts and the national press for its draft the past two years, its free agency signings last year, and its trade deadline maneuvering this year. Anyone who says the Twins are the worst-run team in baseball is showcasing their ignorance. They may not be the best run team in baseball but they’re definitely upper half.

 

They don’t profile to have anyone better than Mauer at DH/1B in 2019. Rooker isn’t going to be ready til mid-season at the earliest (and plays OF as well). Austin might be ready but may also just be a AAAA player. He’s not someone you’re writing in with a pen. From there you’re looking at free agents and I’d encourage you to go look at who is available. It’s not a pretty list. Joe Mauer on a 1-2 year deal makes a lot of sense for a team with a big hole at 1B/DH/3B (precluding Sano moving over) and a need for OBP.

 

Some people just like to be negative. The Twins glass is 3/4 full right now. Lots of organizations would swap spots in a heartbeat. Young marketable players currently up, a beautiful park, a solid regional market, a well-respected front office, and a top 5-10 farm system to augment a team that was in the playoffs last year. This year didn’t go to plan but that doesn’t mean the plan was bad. Life happens.

[ashbury]

This year didn’t go to plan but that doesn’t mean the plan was bad. Life happens.

Plan was sound, sorta. Execution, more debatable.

 

To me, the pivotal point is in evaluation and forecasting. I still don't believe our analytics group is a strength compared to other teams. Kyle Gibson makes some changes, good results happen, and they carry over to 2018. Logan Morrison makes some changes, good results happen, and apparently pitchers adjusted to his changes and 2018 was a disaster for him. Somehow, evaluators who can tease out the difference between a "career year" and "turning the corner" are still lacking.

[ThejacKmp]

 

Plan was sound, sorta. Execution, more debatable.

 

To me, the pivotal point is in evaluation and forecasting. I still don't believe our analytics group is a strength compared to other teams. Kyle Gibson makes some changes, good results happen, and they carry over to 2018. Logan Morrison makes some changes, good results happen, and apparently pitchers adjusted to his changes and 2018 was a disaster for him. Somehow, evaluators who can tease out the difference between a "career year" and "turning the corner" are still lacking.

 

The Twins get a bad rap on Morrison. It’s a time when launch angles are changing for hitters so it wasn’t crazy to think that he might be a 125 OPS guy instead of a 105 OPS guy. They didn’t pay him like the 125 guy, they paid him like a 105 guy and they got an option for a second year in case he was a 125 guy.

 

Clearly we’ve learned last year was the outlier but it’s mainly been some bad BABIP and maybe some rust in April that’s kept him from being the 105 guy. That guy would have been a nice DH piece in the lineup.

 

I can’t fault them for Logan Morrison signing. The process was sound. I think a better argument can be made for them cutting him loose earlier but that’s a hard call to make. You never know when a guy is going to turn it around and it’s not like anyone wanted to see Vargas up in his stead or more Grossman. And there’s something to be said for sticking with free agents you sign since it sends a message to other free agents that they won’t lose their job if they struggle at first. We’ll see if they get anything for him in August, that would go a long way towards making their commitment to him worthwhile.

[ewen21]

 

 

 

Some people just like to be negative. The Twins glass is 3/4 full right now. Lots of organizations would swap spots in a heartbeat. Young marketable players currently up, a beautiful park, a solid regional market, a well-respected front office, and a top 5-10 farm system to augment a team that was in the playoffs last year. This year didn’t go to plan but that doesn’t mean the plan was bad. Life happens.

David St. Peter would be proud of these remarks

[ThejacKmp]

 

David St. Peter would be proud of these remarks

 

Is that a bad thing? An insult? I think they're all good things?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Clearly we’ve learned last year was the outlier but it’s mainly been some bad BABIP and maybe some rust in April that’s kept him from being the 105 guy. That guy would have been a nice DH piece in the lineup.

I don't think "rust in April" is valid for Morrison, since he signed on February 25th.

 

But I was checking out some expected wOBA stats in another thread, and sure enough Morrison is up there for 2018. So is Mauer, for what it's worth, but he has under-performed his xwOBA by 30+ points every year of the Statcast era (since 2015). Morrison was a similar under-performer for 2015-2016 too, although not as much as he has underperformed in 2018.

 

https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/expected_statistics?type=batter&year=2018&position=&team=MIN&min=1

[ewen21]

 

Is that a bad thing? An insult? I think they're all good things?

You are selling the "gotta look at the positives" angle.

That's noble.

 

Just don't get your hackles up when others don't.  You went in on Number3 a little too hard.  Relax

[ThejacKmp]

 

You are selling the "gotta look at the positives" angle.

That's noble.

 

Just don't get your hackles up when others don't.  You went in on Number3 a little too hard.  Relax

 

Relentless and reflexive negativity (not Number3's first post) with nothing to back it up generally deserves a strong response that accentuates the positive.

 

But note taken.

 

P.S. it's not noble. It's realistic. It's easy to get dragged down in a 162 game disappointing season. Everyone would do a lot better to look at the bigger picture, which is overwhelmingly positive.

Edited August 10, 2018 by ThejacKmp

[Riverbrian]

 

We didn't get a year out of Hardy, not because he sucked.  Then he went on to have several good years after we traded him.  Gomez never became all that much his "five tool player" moniker notwithstanding.  You may have an argument in Hicks, but he was not going to be successful here.

 

As far as Buxton is concerned, I cannot understand where you are coming from.  Earlier you seemed to suggest you would not be against trading.  Was that "sarcasm"?

 

I am not for holding onto any player who sucks for five years.  Next year is it for me.  He has too many red flags.  He strikes out a ton, doesn't get on base, doesn't hit for average, gets lots of injuries and relies almost entirely on speed.  Where is he headed with that kind of a profile?  I am not saying GET RID OF HIM!!  

I am simply saying a) it's time to understand he likely isn't going to be great (maybe not even good) and we need to stop giving endless amounts of rope to guys just so they can hang themselves

 

We got 360 AB's out of Hardy because he was hurt and I'm not really using that to judge the trade although he had a little injury history in Milwaukee before we acquired him.Trading Hardy to Baltimore for what we got back was absolutely impossible to justify and I'm not really using that to judge the Gomez trade either. Hardy was a decent enough acquisition and the Twins clearly compounded the mistake by how they handled thing afterwards... but.

 

Gomez had a couple of huge years with Milwaukee that Hardy didn't have. The Twins utilized Gomez for two years of sub-par play and cut the cord which allowed Milwaukee to get the best years of Gomez and that is the fuzzy end of the lollipop... this can't be denied unless you just focus on... "Yeah it made sense at the time".

 

The Brewers eventually took those two huge years from Gomez and upgraded again by trading him to Houston for Josh Hader, Domingo Santana and Brett Phillips. Brett Phillips was just recently traded for Mike Moustakas. 

 

The problems we are currently having do not lie at the feet of the current regime... It's this type of crap that damages our ability to acquire front line talent. The Twins have been firmly rooted in mediocre for way too long and giving up on the extreme talent too soon is a part of the reason why. 

 

You can justify the Carlos Gomez Trade for JJ Hardy at the time when it happened... But right now in 2018... Step back and look at the aftermath. It's 2018... We still haven't figured out CF and we got nothing to show for trading a 5 tool player. The Brewers have Josh Hader, Domingo Santana and Mike Moustakas. 

 

Hicks... I hated the deal but there were many who could justify it because of the need at Catcehr... But right now It's 2018 and look at the aftermath... Hicks is killing it in New York... And we got Gabriel Moya to show for the deal... I really hope Moya works out because otherwise we just gave away another 5 tool player in CF and we still haven't figured out CF. Once again... the Twins absorbed the worst years of Hicks and dealt him so another team could enjoy the best years of Hicks and we got almost nothing in return. 

 

I'm sitting here wondering why we can't seem to develop a player capabale of bringing back Josh Hader and Domingo Santana in a trade and this type of stuff is a very plausible explanation. 

 

On Buxton... I don't believe I have ever advocated trading the guy because I'm absolutely 100% against trading him because of what happened with Gomez and Hicks. I am right now very consistent... Keep him... Fix Him and but don't turn to him with a guaranteed job in CF without a safety net. Make him earn the Job and if he doesn't... the club needs to open up, swallow and come to grips that they blew another Early 1st round draft pick.