Does the Front Office owe us an explanation?

[nicksaviking]

 

There are some mustards that would be worth buying for a steal. Morrison didn't turn out to be one of them.

 

I don't mind buying an extra mustard if it's on sale, but I wouldn't leave the store without also buying the ketchup.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Who's to say they didn't do those things? I mean, they actually did get Cave by trade. I understand this kind of criticism over a few years across a roster, perhaps, but in one offseason at a specific position, it's not necessarily easy to do. Has anyone else plucked an international/independent outfield gem this season?

 

And did you read the last part of my post? The Twins non-starting outfielders have combined for roughly a 91 wRC+ in 345 PA this year. That's as good or better than any of the free agent outfielders I listed. Even considering Grossman's defense, they're all about replacement level -- but bench players often are.

 

Twins non-starting outfielders:

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2018&month=43&season1=2018&ind=0&team=8&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=2,d

 

Free agent outfielders:

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2018&month=0&season1=2018&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=9848,5223,4881,5227,3882,2578,3708,4022&sort=21,d

Do you think it would've been difficult to make a trade for an OFer that aims higher than roughly replacement level? That's an honest question. They picked up a SP in Odorizzi who came with serious questions, and admittedly hasn't been great, but he's still sitting at nearly 1 WAR. He was acquired for a fringe MI prospect and I'd have to imagine finding starting pitching is more difficult than platoon OFers. 

 

I know that isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison but holding the production of Grossman/LaMarre side by side with only FA OFers kind of misses the point about what the team should have been looking to do given the very real concerns about Kepler's ability to play full time, and Buxton's ability to stay healthy. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Provide proof of this.

As far as Belisle, I am not sure what you expect. Here's what they said when they signed him:

 

http://www.startribune.com/veteran-pitcher-matt-belisle-will-rejoin-twins/485257651/

 

 

“That’s the way we look at it. Matt is somebody who can help us, and we’re going to continue to try to push and put this team into [postseason] position,” said Derek Falvey, the Twins chief baseball officer. “We’ve got a decent chunk of time until the All-Star break, and then again until the trade deadline, so there’s a lot we’re still going to learn about our team. But our guys know they need to put forth a run to put themselves in good position to make decisions in July that will reflect where this team is.”

...

“We know about what type of person he is. What I don’t want to get lost in the shuffle is that, watching him pitch down there, the people who have seen him say he’s the same guy,” Twins manager Paul Molitor said. “We’re looking for him to supplement our bullpen first and foremost, but we all know that the presence that he can bring can be influential, as well.”

 

I mean, we can ask them again, but I'm not sure you'll get a measurably different response. "We still like him, even though he's had a couple rough outings, we're seeing some mentorship with Busenitz". Maybe now you'll get a "we'll re-evaluate on August 1st" kind of thing.

[KirbyDome89]

 

My guess is that people looking for an explanation from the F/O would not be likely to accept said explanation. Is it their fault …

 

1) Santana has been out all year
2) Polanco used PEDs
3) Lynn and Odorizzi have not performed to their career standards
4) Dozier insists only pulling the ball 98% of the time even when it’s on the very outside edge of the strike zone even though a shift has opened the entire right side
5) Sano feels the need to hit every ball 600 ft and his plate discipline regressed.
6) Buxton’s offense has gotten even worse
7) Castro is out for the year
8) Kepler has not improved offensively. You would have thought his improvement against LH pitching would have elevated his offensive numbers considerably.

 

These things and a few others explain the failure of this season. Should the F/O have foreseen these things? Should we have given up on Buxton and Sano and replaced them. Should we believe they have not tried to get Dozier to beat the shift and not try to pull pitches on the outside edge of the zone? Should we have given up on Kepler?

 

Most people understand what happened this year. Others feel the need to blame someone. Of course, we love the players so some of us blame the F/O. Kind of like parents who’s kid is never the problem. It would do the F/O no good to explain what went wrong to those who don’t already understand we had some key injuries, a costly suspension. and several players who simply have not performed to level we all expected. How would fans feel if the F/O said Buxton and Sano have sucked. Dozier has been mediocre and won't adapt. Polanco was an idiot and hurt the team when he used PEDs? Many here had a fit when they said it would eventually be a problem if Sano did not get in better shape. Remember those posts that grilled the F/O and any reporter who suggested such a thing?

 

I guess it's not surprise that fans act in a fanatical manner when things go poorly.

I haven't seen anybody blame the entirety of this season on the FO. It's obvious that Buxton and Sano, the expected cornerstones, are the prime culprits. However, that doesn't mean the FO gets a pass. Yes, the core of the team was intact when Falvey took over, but they've done little to build around that group, and what moves they've made have largely failed miserably. It's ok to hold them accountable for that. I'm not sure how that take is fanatical...

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I know that isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison but holding the production of Grossman/LaMarre side by side with only FA OFers kind of misses the point about what the team should have been looking to do given the very real concerns about Kepler's ability to play full time. 

I know much of the concern was about finding a potential platoon for Kepler -- but Kepler has a 127 wRC+ versus LHP. Rosario's got a 100. Grossman's got a 115.

[nicksaviking]

 

Sure, But focusing on LaMarre misses the fact that we also had Grossman, plus Cave in AAA, and both Cave and LaMarre had options so they could be swapped freely according to need (ideally Cave up for starting opportunities, and LaMarre up for more infrequent appearances).

 

I wished they would have brought up Cave a bit earlier (although he may turn out to be no more productive than LaMarre in the end anyway), but finding adequate 4th outfielder production doesn't seem to be a particular failing of the 2018 Twins.

 

I can see your argument. I guess I'd argue that half of the fans were ready to move on from Grossman this offseason and the other half were at least willing to concede he had no business playing in the field.

 

I like Cave and I'll definitely give the front office kudos for the trade, but most teams have those types of fringy OF prospects who may be able to be called upon in an emergency. Thankfully he's been a nice find, but I don't think he was really any different than Granite as far setting the roster for depth goes.

 

Considering Grossman, LaMarre and Motter have already recorded 591 innings in the outfield, and the Twins have gotten lucky that Cave's 186.1 innings haven't been a black hole, I think they absolutely have been hurt by the lack of 4th OF depth. More to the point though, the Twins have been hurt by a lack of right-handed production and had they planned accordingly, that RH production could have/should have been the 4th OF who could also regularly function as a DH.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Do you think it would've been difficult to make a trade for an OFer that aims higher than roughly replacement level? That's an honest question. They picked up a SP in Odorizzi who came with serious questions, and admittedly hasn't been great, but he's still sitting at nearly 1 WAR. He was acquired for a fringe MI prospect and I'd have to imagine finding starting pitching is more difficult than platoon OFers. 

I'm not so sure, while every team "needs" 5 SP, they also usually have a lot of guys moving through those spots, so there might be more tradeable SP floating around at any given time.

 

There were some outfielders available in trade. Corey Dickerson and Denard Span from the Rays -- but they are both left-handed. Matt Kemp, I suppose, but did anyone see that coming from him? McCutchen was overkill for a 4th outfielder, and anyway by that point you're down in the 1 WAR or less territory, not meaningfully different than the production the Twins received anyway.

 

It just seems like a relatively minor issue to me.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I can see your argument. I guess I'd argue that half of the fans were ready to move on from Grossman this offseason and the other half were at least willing to concede he had no business playing in the field.

 

I like Cave and I'll definitely give the front office kudos for the trade, but most teams have those types of fringy OF prospects who may be able to be called upon in an emergency. Thankfully he's been a nice find, but I don't think he was really any different than Granite as far setting the roster for depth goes.

 

Considering Grossman, LaMarre and Motter have already recorded 591 innings in the outfield, and the Twins have gotten lucky that Cave's 186.1 innings haven't been a black hole, I think they absolutely have been hurt by the lack of 4th OF depth. More to the point though, the Twins have been hurt by a lack of right-handed production and had they planned accordingly, that RH production could have/should have been the 4th OF who could also regularly function as a DH.

I'm glad they didn't just roll with Granite, which is how they started spring training. Adding Cave as a viable alternative was a good move, even if it wasn't the RH outfielder most of us were looking for.

 

Have the Twins been particularly hurt by a lack of RH production? 87 wRC+ vs LHP, 97 vs RHP. Any RH outfielder would have likely taken opportunities away from Kepler (127), Grossman (115), and perhaps even Rosario (100), as well as LaMarre.

 

I think this offense was destined to sputter anyway.

 

(An aside: super small sample sizes, but Adrianza has been much better vs LHP than RHP with the Twins. Maybe we'll see him get a few games in the outfield, as long as the infield is full?)

[KirbyDome89]

 

I know much of the concern was about finding a potential platoon for Kepler -- but Kepler has a 127 wRC+ versus LHP. Rosario's got a 100. Grossman's got a 115.

True, but he's also been awful against RHP, so the team is still dealing with him struggling to be an everyday player. Rosario is in another an entirely different class than Kepler offensively, and Grossman should be DQ'd from the convo based on his lack of defense alone. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

I'd say if the media wants my money....they should start asking hard questions. Otherwise, they are just PR machines for the team (having worked with media people, I know it's the second one).

 

PR might be strong....but the media is HIGHLY incentivized to support major businesses, for many reasons (not just sports teams).

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Grossman should be DQ'd from the convo based on his lack of defense alone. 

You have to consider the complete package. You'd get the same tradeoff with other options too, maybe not quite so extreme (or difficult to watch ). But Grossman appears to be a replacement-level MLB outfielder, with the upside of an average-ish DH. That may not be sexy (sorry Robbie), but it can be useful.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I'm not so sure, while every team "needs" 5 SP, they also usually have a lot of guys moving through those spots, so there might be more tradeable SP floating around at any given time.

 

There were some outfielders available in trade. Corey Dickerson and Denard Span from the Rays -- but they are both left-handed. Matt Kemp, I suppose, but did anyone see that coming from him? McCutchen was overkill for a 4th outfielder, and anyway by that point you're down in the 1 WAR or less territory, not meaningfully different than the production the Twins received anyway.

 

It just seems like a relatively minor issue to me.

Plausible. I have no doubt that turnover for SPs is higher due to sheer number, injuries, ineffectiveness, ect. but couldn't we also say that's a strong reason to keep pitchers with a +WAR? 

 

We're going back and forth about one question from a list so I agree, in the grand scheme the 4th OFer didn't "cost," them the season, but IMO it was one failure on a list that has started to add up. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

You have to consider the complete package. You'd get the same tradeoff with other options too, maybe not quite so extreme (or difficult to watch ). But Grossman appears to be a replacement-level MLB outfielder, with the upside of an average-ish DH. That may not be sexy (sorry Robbie), but it can be useful.

He's always handled LHP better, that's for sure, and he's capable of putting together a professional AB, but I'd pass on feeding Grossman PAs as a DH. 

 

Still not sold on that defense either.

[yarnivek1972]

I can see your argument. I guess I'd argue that half of the fans were ready to move on from Grossman this offseason and the other half were at least willing to concede he had no business playing in the field.

 

I like Cave and I'll definitely give the front office kudos for the trade, but most teams have those types of fringy OF prospects who may be able to be called upon in an emergency. Thankfully he's been a nice find, but I don't think he was really any different than Granite as far setting the roster for depth goes.

 

Considering Grossman, LaMarre and Motter have already recorded 591 innings in the outfield, and the Twins have gotten lucky that Cave's 186.1 innings haven't been a black hole, I think they absolutely have been hurt by the lack of 4th OF depth. More to the point though, the Twins have been hurt by a lack of right-handed production and had they planned accordingly, that RH production could have/should have been the 4th OF who could also regularly function as a DH.

If Messers Buxton, Sano and Dozier had performed as anticipated (or even close to it), RH production wouldn’t have been any kind of issue. If you are looking from an offensive boost from a bench player, you probably need better starters. And, that was the case this year. A lot of the starters greatly underperformed.

[Platoon]

Any explanation they offered would be torn to shreds. 

 

They would be better off taking advice from public relations and continue to spoon feed us carefully worded statements on a small portion of every possible thing that we'd really like to know. 

 

Until we all act better in the world of social media... it's the only thing they can sensibly do.

 

I don't think the answer to a question and the response to the answer are pertinent. But lets take it in a chronological order. First someone with the gravitas to get an answer has to ask the question. So far that really hasn't happened in many areas. LEN3 is a better source for restaurants in FL than in Twins info. Miller? Doesn't even know where to eat. FSN, company shills. But say a question is asked, and clearly answered? Then the media and the FO have fulfilled part of their job description to the fans. Whether we like it, accept it, or blow up Twitter over it is a moot point. I simply cannot believe that all the MLB markets in the country operate in such a management friendly environment, especially after the cluster bleep atmosphere this team seems to embrace. Just the simple fact that Belisle is on this roster, STILL, and Booze Nits was sent down makes my case.

[curt1965]

With all due respect, I've no doubt that this was meant as a courteous,concise reply, but to me it still had a whiff of slightly testy dismissal of questions being asked by some posters whose names I recognize as well-informed Twins fans. 

 

And even if the Twins have mentioned the eyebrow-raising handling of Buxton, Belisle, and other players early on, wouldn't it be fair to say that even if those were adequate explanations at the time, they might no longer cut it now?

 

'Swamped at work' may be a convincing explanation of why your Christmas tree is still up a week or two into January. It's not very convincing in March. Belisle is a Christmas tree in March, and he's not the only player shedding needles.

Your comments are spot on-especially the first paragraph.

I don’t want to make a generalization, but most TD posters are extremely knowledgeable, caring, and enthusiastic supporters of the Twins. I realize I don’t have enough information to really understand the inner workings of an organization, but some of the roster is so mind boggling, it defies any reasonable logic or possible explanation. The FO should be happy that we still care enough to complain!

[KirbyDome89]

 

If Messers Buxton, Sano and Dozier had performed as anticipated (or even close to it), RH production wouldn’t have been any kind of issue. If you are looking from an offensive boost from a bench player, you probably need better starters. And, that was the case this year. A lot of the starters greatly underperformed.

No starter plays 162 games and to boot the Twins consistently carry 13 pitchers, so those limited bench roles are going to see significant playing time. Ideally those large chunks of ABs would go to capable offensive players. 

[Champuckett]

"Does the Front Office owe us an explanation?"

 

 

Yes.

[Fritzderkat]

I am in agreement with posters who have listed (largely correctly) the various mishaps that have befallen this club. I think we all understand that. For me, it started with Santana's bad finger. I'm still wondering how any major league pitcher with a bad middle finger on his throwing hand can successfully grip, throw and spin the kind of pitches he needs to win in the majors. I am not optimistic.

That said, I would venture to put forth what I presume what will be received as an unpopular opinion.

If Mitch Garver doesn't catch well enough or handle pitchers that smoothly, that's why Bobby Wilson is there. I will say this for Bobby Wilson--he is a good catcher and it's a damn shame he can't hit his hat. I would venture to guess that if Garver hit any better than he has, he'd be playing more often, if not every day. It isn't exactly like he's knocked the cover off the ball.

Another guy who deserves a break is Robbie Grossman. Yeah, his skills are limited and applied to the outfield, he's not a major league outfielder. But he always gives it his all, same with Bobby Wilson, and I'll give them credit for that. If you stop and think, it's not their fault they're still on the team.   

[Seth Stohs]

 

Sorry, Seth, I never saw/heard any reference to Belisle and why he is rostered. And I think you missed the jist of my post: if the fans are supposed to support and stick with a poor team when things are tough and losing is a comman occurrence, is it wrong to expect that team to put their best 25 players on the field for each and every game? (Unless winning isn’t the goal)
None of us has your knowledge of current and future player’s skills and ability that you do. You ‘da man!
But as a fan who loves the Twins and follows every game, it is hard to explain away what is going on with Magill, for example. If Molitor isn’t going to use him, bring up someone he will use! It’s not rocket science.
If Garver is so bad, why not play him now to see if he can improve? What’s to lose? My personal question is why Gonsalves hasn’t been given a chance, when 4 other pitchers rated lower than him have already been called up?
I’m sure he has an attitude problem or is a poor teammate, and the organization is sending him a message.
Whatever.
I do think it’s fair for fans to ask these questions. Sorry, if I don’t remember Molitor being asked those questions. I watch every game. And postgame. And read the StarTribs sports section every day.
And maybe that’s why I’m called a fan-a word derived from another word- fanatic!

 

I'm on board with most of that. But the subject of the forum thread is about whether the front office owes us explanations, and i just pointed out that they have answered that question. And Molitor has answered those questions. There's no need to answer or ask that question every day. 

 

And in general, I think that front offices answer questions any time a new player has been brought in. They expressed their reasons for signing Rodney, Duke, Reed, Lynn, Morrison when they were signed. I don't think they need to do more than that. Obviously if/when they trade or DFA them, it's fair for them to say this guy didn't pan out as we expected based on our models/analysis. 

 

As for why Magill isn't' pitching... I don't know. That's' a manager question. As for Wilson over Garver... that's a manager question. 

 

Gonsalves not being called up is a GM question, but I think their easy answer is, Have you seen his walk total? 

 

As for rankings, those are subjective and should have very little, if any, to do with eventual promotions. 

 

And for fans, asking questions is absolutely fair and encouraged... 

[Seth Stohs]

 

With all due respect, I've no doubt that this was meant as a courteous,concise reply, but to me it still had a whiff of slightly testy dismissal of questions being asked by some posters whose names I recognize as well-informed Twins fans. 

 

And even if the Twins have mentioned the eyebrow-raising handling of Buxton, Belisle, and other players early on, wouldn't it be fair to say that even if those were adequate explanations at the time, they might no longer cut it now?

 

'Swamped at work' may be a convincing explanation of why your Christmas tree is still up a week or two into January. It's not very convincing in March. Belisle is a Christmas tree in March, and he's not the only player shedding needles.

 

Fair point, and my intent was certainly not to be dismissive. I like how you put this, and it is fair to ask the Belisle question weekly (I'm surprised it''s still going on), but I don't see the need to bring it up every single time. 

 

I also think this time of year... team is now pretty much completely out of contending (after almost letting ourselves get a little bit excited before the All Star break), it is fair and almost necessary to ask certain questions with more frequency.  That said, the more often a question is asked, the less value there is in the response (potentially, if the person being asked realizes, the answer is pretty much the same as it was yesterday). 

[Seth Stohs]

 

Sure, But focusing on LaMarre misses the fact that we also had Grossman, plus Cave in AAA, and both Cave and LaMarre had options so they could be swapped freely according to need (ideally Cave up for starting opportunities, and LaMarre up for more infrequent appearances).

 

I wished they would have brought up Cave a bit earlier (although he may turn out to be no more productive than LaMarre in the end anyway), but finding adequate 4th outfielder production doesn't seem to be a particular failing of the 2018 Twins.

 

Good point... I'd add that LaMarre had something like a .640 OPS which is just fine for a defense-first, good speed 4th or 5th OF option... Again reiterates that he was not at all the problem. When they made the Buxton determination (to send him down for an extended period of time), they pushed Cave up so he could play most every day. And maybe Cave will wind up being a solid 4th outfielder. They'll know a lot more after this season.

[S.]

 

it is fair to ask the Belisle question weekly (I'm surprised it''s still going on), but I don't see the need to bring it up every single time. 

I still am not seeing a single quote from the front office in regards to Belisle, besides their comments when we initially signed him. When has the question of his effectiveness or his usage (or Pressly's for that matter) been brought up since the initial questions immediately following the signing? You say these questions have been asked and answered multiple times, but no one can provide any source or quotes or comments from the past month+

[Major League Ready]

There is no answer the F/O could give that would be satisfactory to a significant segment of fans so the smart thing to do is to give the "politically shaped"response. Basically, many of you are complaining because they are not dumb enough to engage in a war they can't win. 

[S.]

 

There is no answer the F/O could give that would be satisfactory to a significant segment of fans so the smart thing to do is to give the "politically shaped"response. Basically, many of you are complaining because they are not dumb enough to engage in a war they can't win. 

I can't speak for everyone, but I think a lot of people are complaining that the reporters don't even have the balls to ask any tough questions in the first place. 

[Riverbrian]

 

I don't think the answer to a question and the response to the answer are pertinent. But lets take it in a chronological order. First someone with the gravitas to get an answer has to ask the question. So far that really hasn't happened in many areas. LEN3 is a better source for restaurants in FL than in Twins info. Miller? Doesn't even know where to eat. FSN, company shills. But say a question is asked, and clearly answered? Then the media and the FO have fulfilled part of their job description to the fans. Whether we like it, accept it, or blow up Twitter over it is a moot point. I simply cannot believe that all the MLB markets in the country operate in such a management friendly environment, especially after the cluster bleep atmosphere this team seems to embrace. Just the simple fact that Belisle is on this roster, STILL, and Booze Nits was sent down makes my case.

 

It's our fault... this dynamic you describe is accurate but it has been forged over time from lessons learned by the consequences of open dialogue. They speak up honestly and they immediately pay the price. It isn't just social media but yeah... social media is bad enough on its own.

 

The front office is not going to say they are keeping Belisle because they don't trust someone else... that type of publicly honesty is going to suck for whoever the someone else is. They are not going to break down Belisle for public consumption either because Belisle isn't going to appreciate that and understandably so. You gotta work with these people and nobody is going to want to work with you if they are going to be laid open for everyone to see. LEN3 isn't going to ask those questions because he has been at his job long enough to know that he didn't get the answer all the other times he has asked those type of questions. If you want transparency in all thought processes... you have to ask yourself, how many people is it going to cause a problem for... once you do that... you'll see the tentacles. 

 

Your wife wants you to be honest with her and she stressed the importance of that honesty in a healthy relationship so you try it. You get plenty of time to assess want went wrong with that great sounding idea on paper while you are sleeping on the couch because you honestly communicated with her about how much money she spent on this, what you thought of that dress or how you felt about her wanting to travel to Omaha to spend the weekend with her crazy aunt and uncle, 

 

[mikelink45]

As a constant critic of the FO I feel compelled to add my thoughts.  I know that we were sold on these guys because they were going to give us the new insights and modern stat thinking, but the truth is, I have not seen anything that shows me any direction.  I could have seen Terry Ryan sign Lynn and Morrison, that was not a big deal.  In fact if TR had signed Belisle and Motter we would have clog the internet to complain. 

 

What is their plan?  What is their direction?  What do they want to see?  If they say that Molitor plays who he wants, does what he wants, they are the ones who put the players on the roster.   Molitor plays the players he has.  

[Riverbrian]

 

I can't speak for everyone, but I think a lot of people are complaining that the reporters don't even have the balls to ask any tough questions in the first place. 

 

Honestly... How do you think you think it is going to turn out for the ballsy reporter water-boarding the front office executives? 

 

 

 

 

[S.]

 

Honestly... How do you think you think it is going to turn out for the ballsy reporter water-boarding the front office executives? 

I wouldn't advise they tear into them like they were posting on here, but I don't think they're going to pull someones' press pass over them asking about Pressly having appeared in 49 games already, or why we're choosing to run with Belisle instead of some of our triple A guys, or why we're using a roster spot on Matt Magill and have only used him 8 times since the start of june

[USAFChief]

 

It's our fault... this dynamic you describe is accurate but it has been forged over time from lessons learned by the consequences of open dialogue. They speak up honestly and they immediately pay the price. It isn't just social media but yeah... social media is bad enough on its own.

 

The front office is not going to say they are keeping Belisle because they don't trust someone else... that type of publicly honesty is going to suck for whoever the someone else is. They are not going to break down Belisle for public consumption either because Belisle isn't going to appreciate that and understandably so. You gotta work with these people and nobody is going to want to work with you if they are going to be laid open for everyone to see. LEN3 isn't going to ask those questions because he has been at his job long enough to know that he didn't get the answer all the other times he has asked those type of questions. If you want transparency in all thought processes... you have to ask yourself, how many people is it going to cause a problem for... once you do that... you'll see the tentacles. 

 

Your wife wants you to be honest with her and she stressed the importance of that honesty in a healthy relationship so you try it. You get plenty of time to assess want went wrong with that great sounding idea on paper while you are sleeping on the couch because you honestly communicated with her about how much money she spent on this, what you thought of that dress or how you felt about her wanting to travel to Omaha to spend the weekend with her crazy aunt and uncle, 

 

 

Also known as the "Fox News School of Journalistic Processes."

 

edit: "Processi?" Dunno, but you get the point.