Josh Hader's Tweets

[PseudoSABR]

 

My concern with the mobbing isn't the pressure for contrition or redemption, I think that's appropriate. It's when the pressure ramps up beyond that, when contrition and redemption are dismissed as even possible.

I am a firm believer that zero tolerance approaches lead to spectacular failures. They often cause more damage to a cause than if they never existed and many innocents suffer in the meantime. These issues are too important, we should resist anything that looks like zero tolerance. Even if the intentions are noble.

But the mob is on the otherside as well, no? The standing ovation in Milwaukee?   The mob has been on the side of racists so long, that somehow we are troubled when the mob stands against it.  Jeeze. 

 

Zero tolerance here is just some public shaming.  Not lynching. Not these players losing their jobs.  (The Disney decision not withstanding).   If Zero tolerance is just this, so what?   

 

The mob is always ugly, zero tolerance is always ugly.  Agreed.  But this is not the hill to die on for those causes.  I think they will erode, especially when people stop tweeting racist crap.  This isn't an identity thing, this is an action thing.  When the action stops, there's nothing to rally around.

[KirbyDome89]

 

Most extreme reaction possible?  Are we lynching them? No.  Pretty sure they can use the same water fountain as us, as well.   (I can do hyperbole too is the point)

 

They are being decryed publicly.  They are face no criminal charges.  No violence.  Nothing which the targets of racism and sexism have faced.  

 

I didn't say crap like this in high school, and I'm at least a decade older (and was super active on the internet even then).  And if people want to shame me for my use of "gay" and rarely "faggot" I definitely deserve it.   Most people don't use social media to communicate such messages, no matter what their age is.  (I think these tweets are a symptom of a culture and families that approve of such talk, we need not solely blame the individual, but yes we should forcefully disavow such talk.)

 

That said, should it be such a big news story? Meh, probably not, but, historically, dominant culture has always shouted down this kind of talk in favor of he's a good guy, he didn't know any better, it was accidental, innocent racism.  

 

Accidental, innocent racism.  That's what we're going with.  Oi.

They're being forced to apologize for tweets they made 7 years ago as teenagers, but sure, it's hyperbolic to call that reaction extreme....

 

If you don't think that social media wields power, and that power is capable of being abused then we can stop now.

 

How much interaction do you have people age 14-30 on social media? That's an honest question, because I've repeatedly seen posts claiming that this type of material isn't common on these platforms. Unless everybody I've talked to who is roughly my age and my entire friend group, myself included are accessing entirely different versions, I can confidently say it is. Whether or not anybody chooses to recognize it, using the N word, calling something/somebody "gay," or even "faggy," ect. just isn't the same thing to this generation. That doesn't mean the words are in good taste/appropriate. I'm not going to be painted into this corner of defending what's been tweeted, but when we're at the point where quoting rap lyrics makes someone racist a little dose of perspective would go a long ways.  

 

Yeah, we'll completely disagree on whether claiming outrage justifies the response, and whether or not that response is "innocent."

[Mike Sixel]

 

I'm not saying it's necessarily the best look, but just like the tweets, I think the ovation is being portrayed in the worst possible light. 

 

what positive light is there, in giving a standing ovation in this instance?

[Mike Sixel]

https://deadspin.com/the-value-of-public-shaming-1827965127

 

Interesting take....and it starts with acknowledging that teenage boys do this A LOT.....but that we shouldn't just let them either....

[Mike Sixel]

 

They're being forced to apologize for tweets they made 7 years ago as teenagers, but sure, it's hyperbolic to call that reaction extreme....

 

If you don't think that social media wields power, and that power is capable of being abused then we can stop now.

 

How much interaction do you have people age 14-30 on social media? That's an honest question, because I've repeatedly seen posts claiming that this type of material isn't common on these platforms. Unless everybody I've talked to who is roughly my age and my entire friend group, myself included are accessing entirely different versions, I can confidently say it is. Whether or not anybody chooses to recognize it, using the N word, calling something/somebody "gay," or even "faggy," ect. just isn't the same thing to this generation. That doesn't mean the words are in good taste/appropriate. I'm not going to be painted into this corner of defending what's been tweeted, but when we're at the point where quoting rap lyrics makes someone racist a little dose of perspective would go a long ways.  

 

Yeah, we'll completely disagree on whether claiming outrage justifies the response, and whether or not that response is "innocent."

 

being forced to apologize is a big deal? compared to what?

[PseudoSABR]

 

being forced to apologize is a big deal? compared to what?

Right.  And they aren't being forced to do it.  They're doing it because it's not only the decent thing, it's the smart thing given their public profile. 

[slash129]

Here comes the Turner and Newcomb train to form a new callous .... You here it again and again and it just becomes more interference to adjust your white noise to .... Kinda like PoundMeToo

[PseudoSABR]

[Squirrel]

 

Right.  And they aren't being forced to do it.  They're doing it because it's not only the decent thing, it's the smart thing given their public profile. 

I still question how much they've changed, though. I'm not sure what their motiviation was to begin with in posting those things all those years ago. Many of us have said we wouldn't have, so, why did they? Was it just wanting attention? Peer pressure? Or on some level they really thought those things? While the public acknowledgement of 'this is bad' along with an apology goes a long way, and while they should be given every opportunity to continue their lives after that, I still wonder ... where did this come from to begin with and have they really changed? I'm not asking for anything more than that, but ... I do wonder.

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same. We can impose all kinds of laws and rules of behavior, in life, on social media platforms, in the workplace, etc ... but it doesn't truly change the root of the problem, and that is what is within us and how we see humanity.

 

I don't have any answers for this current situation with Twitter. I think we need to be very careful how we 'police' individual thought and how to hold people accountable, particularly those with influence, as I don't want to see certain ideas legitimitzed. However, I do think there is a fine line there, and I'm not sure holding people accountable to more than an apology for actions they did as kids is warranted. That said, tweeting this kind of thing as adults is fair game for public shaming, and more, imo.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I still question how much they've changed, though. I'm not sure what their motiviation was to begin with in posting those things all those years ago. Many of us have said we wouldn't have, so, why did they? Was it just wanting attention? Peer pressure? Or on some level they really thought those things? While the public acknowledgement of 'this is bad' along with an apology goes a long way, and while they should be given every opportunity to continue their lives after that, I still wonder ... where did this come from to begin with and have they really changed? I'm not asking for anything more than that, but ... I do wonder.

 

The more things change, the more they stay the same. We can impose all kinds of laws and rules of behavior, in life, on social media platforms, in the workplace, etc ... but it doesn't truly change the root of the problem, and that is what is within us and how we see humanity.

 

I don't have any answers for this current situation with Twitter. I think we need to be very careful how we 'police' individual thought and how to hold people accountable, particularly those with influence, as I don't want to see certain ideas legitimitzed. However, I do think there is a fine line there, and I'm not sure holding people accountable to more than an apology for actions they did as kids is warranted. That said, tweeting this kind of thing as adults is fair game for public shaming, and more, imo.

 

I made stupid, offensive, jokes as an early teen.....I just did it verbally, not online.

 

Adolescents will continue to do that. It is part of boundary testing, even if it isn't the same kind of jokes we made, offenses will continue forever (as long as we are free from control). It's part of life.

 

That does not excuse the words, but I think we need to really remember that our brains and personalities are barely formed (and are forming) as teens....

 

So, yes, the words are wrong. For many (some?) the words are real and stay real. But, I'd guess that the words become less real over time for many (most?) people.

 

It isn't easy as a peer to stand up to those kinds of words either, but the more it is done ,the more people learn the meanings are bad.

[KirbyDome89]

 

what positive light is there, in giving a standing ovation in this instance?

 

I'm not saying the tweets are positive. 

 

You and I both know there's a difference between quoting rap lyrics and maliciously calling somebody the N word. Those type of distinctions are being ignored by headlines applying the label "racist," ect. 

 

being forced to apologize is a big deal? compared to what?

 

 1) Can we agree that social media is powerful?

 2) Can we agree that this power can have very real effects on the lives of individuals?

 3) Can we agree that these groups are prone to groupthink, deindividuation, and polarization?

 

I'm not comfortable with a mostly anonymous internet group that isn't concerned with reason or rationality having an impact on the lives on anybody. 

 

I'll be characterized as "defending," Hader or whoever is up next between the crosshairs, but I don't believe that how we arrive at a given state is independent of the process it takes to get there. IMO a rather blind eye is turned in the name of progress and I seriously wonder whether we're seeing more harm done than good. 

 

[Mike Sixel]

I have no idea what those responses have to do with giving the guy a standing ovation? I'm talking about the fans, not his tweets......how can giving him a standing ovation be positive?

 

If social media is powerful, I'd guess RT offensive lyrics has power. Just turn the telescope from the masses to the tweet they are responding to (and the millions of tweets like it). 

 

I literally posted that teenage boys do this all the time, and that they do (mostly) change and not even really understand what they are doing when they say/tweet this stuff out in the first place. I think we are closer on that part than you seem to be implying.

[notoriousgod71]

 

https://deadspin.com/the-value-of-public-shaming-1827965127

 

Interesting take....and it starts with acknowledging that teenage boys do this A LOT.....but that we shouldn't just let them either....

 

 

Public shaming looks an awful lot like online bullying, which is what everyone seems to think is bad.

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

Public shaming looks an awful lot like online bullying, which is what everyone seems to think is bad.

The big delta being bullying someone for being over weight or gay.... Is very different than telling people not to be mean, bad, awful..... It's like not tolerating racism, by being intolerant of racism. There is no other choice.

 

Did that mean everyone doing this is being altruistic? Of course not

[notoriousgod71]

 

The big delta being bullying someone for being over weight or gay.... Is very different than telling people not to be mean, bad, awful..... It's like not tolerating racism, by being intolerant of racism. There is no other choice.

Did that mean everyone doing this is being altruistic? Of course not

 

This is true. However, the way the public shamers go about it is no different than the original person. Lots of name calling, generalization, and mob mentality.

[notoriousgod71]

 

You're supposed to.  Get with the times man!

 

Social media and calling out bad behavior in general has become really, really toxic to the basic concept of society/civility.  I don't think it can be over-stated how negative this trend is.

 

I wish it would just scare enough people off social media so that it were no longer a thing. I don't mind if people want want to use it but when it became "journalism" to just paste a bunch of opinion tweets it is pretty much worthless.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Public shaming looks an awful lot like online bullying, which is what everyone seems to think is bad.

Online bullying could also characterize, you know, sending out racist tweets and the like.  

[Mike Sixel]

 

I wish it would just scare enough people off social media so that it were no longer a thing. I don't mind if people want want to use it but when it became "journalism" to just paste a bunch of opinion tweets it is pretty much worthless.

 

I get a ton of value out of Twitter, by only following like 10 people.

 

I get a ton of value out of FB, since I moved and left all my friends behind. 

 

to each their own, I guess.

[notoriousgod71]

 

Online bullying could also characterize, you know, sending out racist tweets and the like.  

 

 

Yes, so everyone is an *******. It's what I figured all along.

[TheLeviathan]

 

But the mob is on the otherside as well, no? The standing ovation in Milwaukee?   The mob has been on the side of racists so long, that somehow we are troubled when the mob stands against it.  Jeeze. 

 

Zero tolerance here is just some public shaming.  Not lynching. Not these players losing their jobs.  (The Disney decision not withstanding).   If Zero tolerance is just this, so what?   

 

The mob is always ugly, zero tolerance is always ugly.  Agreed.  But this is not the hill to die on for those causes.  I think they will erode, especially when people stop tweeting racist crap.  This isn't an identity thing, this is an action thing.  When the action stops, there's nothing to rally around.

 

I don't think the two mobs hold the same degree of power and, in part, I think that stupid ovation in Milwaukee should be taken as a note of caution, not something to feel emboldened by.  Was that ovation driven from support of racism or opposition to the mob mentality?

 

I think it's the latter...and that's a problem.  We have exceeded shaming in these twitter mobs.  People have had careers ruined, people have committed suicide...I think it's really disingenuous to suggest that this has been held to shaming.  In Hader's case...it seems that way.  But not in many other cases.

 

Make no mistake, the mob mentality is growing.  Just because you happen to agree with the mob's intentions today, doesn't mean you will tomorrow.  That's why it's so important to fight back poor tactics even if you agree with the larger goal.  In the end, you undermine your own goal in the long-term for short-term self-fulfillment.  These issues are too important for that.

[PseudoSABR]

 

Yes, so everyone is an *******. It's what I figured all along.

Well, some people are racist *******s, and other righteous *******s. In my mind, both suck, but one is clearly more shameful.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I don't think the two mobs hold the same degree of power and, in part, I think that stupid ovation in Milwaukee should be taken as a note of caution, not something to feel emboldened by.  Was that ovation driven from support of racism or opposition to the mob mentality?

Look, you don't get to form a mob (Milwaukee ovation) to oppose a mob (twitter backlash to Hader) if eliminating mobness is truly your goal (because it isn't).   As I tried to point out, there were mob-empowered racists for decades; and now (just now, like this year) there are mobs of twitterers who don't lynch, but demand apologies and contrition to oppose the racist/homophobic mob mentality that leads to tweets such as the ones being criticized.  And the mob to opposing the critical-of-racist-mob is somehow a lesser crime.  Give me a break. 

 

Honestly, I'm sensing a lot of white-guy snowflakeness in the backlash to the backlash.  (We shouldn't be too harsh on the privileged white teenage males...oh their delicate sensibilities being asked to own up to what they said/felt/published).   And sadly Carole's response went unresponded to--that we shouldn't just assume contrition here.  There's nothing to suggest that these guys' hearts have changed as opposed to their business acumen.  

 

I'll say again, when there are no racist tweets with which to rally around, the crazy twitter mob will die out.  The racist mob existed for decades if not centuries.   (And heck if racist are continually persecuted by a mob; GOOD!)  

[TheLeviathan]

That post is so ridiculous. Jesus man.

[PseudoSABR]

 

That post is so ridiculous. Jesus man.

Nothing like fighting the righteous twitter mob...with righteousness.   At least you don't change, my friend. 

[Squirrel]

 

I made stupid, offensive, jokes as an early teen.....I just did it verbally, not online.

 

Adolescents will continue to do that. It is part of boundary testing, even if it isn't the same kind of jokes we made, offenses will continue forever (as long as we are free from control). It's part of life.

 

That does not excuse the words, but I think we need to really remember that our brains and personalities are barely formed (and are forming) as teens....

 

So, yes, the words are wrong. For many (some?) the words are real and stay real. But, I'd guess that the words become less real over time for many (most?) people.

 

It isn't easy as a peer to stand up to those kinds of words either, but the more it is done ,the more people learn the meanings are bad.

So, how do we appropriately stand up to those kinds of words on Twitter, from that age group, when we see them today? If there is significant online backlash, we are a 'mob' or 'bullies' ... what is an appropriate way to handle these kinds of posts? When adults do it, it becomes even more legitimized. How do we stop this on public social media? Or do we let it go because ... they're young so it's not exactly real yet, freedom of speech, Twitter (social media) is dumb and who cares ... what is the answer? As I said above, I don't really have one.

 

And, again, do people change when they are confronted, even if in a positive way? I think by the time kids are in high school, it's a tougher change to make. I think a lot of ideals are formed ... maybe not set in stone, but I'd guess more hardened that we might give credit.

 

Frankly, I'm not a Twitter fan for the style of posting that is done there. People spew stuff out that just comes to mind without formulating real thought behind it. And maybe that's what needs to be taught ... how to think before acting.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't agree that calling people out in bad behavior is inappropriate mobbing of them. So call them out, imo.

 

I don't agree that people are fully formed by their teen years, largely, but not fully. So, I do think people can change. Also, I am not excusing their behavior ....

[TheLeviathan]

 

So, how do we appropriately stand up to those kinds of words on Twitter, from that age group, when we see them today? If there is significant online backlash, we are a 'mob' or 'bullies' ... what is an appropriate way to handle these kinds of posts? When adults do it, it becomes even more legitimized. How do we stop this on public social media? Or do we let it go because ... they're young so it's not exactly real yet, freedom of speech, Twitter (social media) is dumb and who cares ... what is the answer? As I said above, I don't really have one.

 

And, again, do people change when they are confronted, even if in a positive way? I think by the time kids are in high school, it's a tougher change to make. I think a lot of ideals are formed ... maybe not set in stone, but I'd guess more hardened that we might give credit.

 

Frankly, I'm not a Twitter fan for the style of posting that is done there. People spew stuff out that just comes to mind without formulating real thought behind it. And maybe that's what needs to be taught ... how to think before acting.

 

These are a lot of good points to ponder.  I think people have always struggled with the dynamic of thinking and acting, social media has just made that phenomenon instant and global.

 

The how question is tricky, but it's super important to discuss.  Look at Roseanne - she said some offensive and awful, was castigated for it, and fired because it isn't her first time.  Josh Hader?  It seems like the level of condemnation is appropriate....but what should we say about people literally combing through twitter accounts looking for offenses.  James Gunn had already shown contrition prior to someone doing that to him, that didn't seem to move the needle.  If contrition and resolve to be a better person is irrelevant once one has said something offensive.....well what do we want then?  Which would lead me to another example - August Ames.  There were those in her mob that not only drove her to suicide but reveled in the result.  

 

What makes the social mobbing so dangerous is that it comes from those that are largely anonymous - giving them no reason to show caution, consider context, or display empathy.  They can attack with impunity.  And they do so over a medium that is impossible for many to escape.  This is where the bullying parallel is apt - for some, once the ball gets rolling, there is no escape from it.  There is only the relentless, aggressive attacks.  

 

And let's not pretend these sorts of mobs only form around the most egregious and obvious cases.  They clearly don't.  (I don't think you believe this, but clearly there are others in the thread willing to ignore this fact)  This has become a fashionable way to tear down those you disagree with.  It has basically been weaponized.

 

So while I support the handling of Roseanne and I support (though am wary of how they were unearthed) the condemnation of Hader, I can also point to a lot of examples where this approach is not only unfair but outright dangerous.  No one, of any political affiliation, would stand for violent mobs dragging these people from their homes and inflicting physical punishment.  But somehow, because the hoods we wear aren't literal but instead the anonymity of the internet, and the punishment is emotional - look aside how visceral and dangerous it is.

 

That, in and of itself, is pretty dangerous to me.  I don't like it.  I'm all about eliminating racism, but it seems to me we can slay King Kong without raising Godzilla.

[Mike Sixel]

 

These are a lot of good points to ponder.  I think people have always struggled with the dynamic of thinking and acting, social media has just made that phenomenon instant and global.

 

The how question is tricky, but it's super important to discuss.  Look at Roseanne - she said some offensive and awful, was castigated for it, and fired because it isn't her first time.  Josh Hader?  It seems like the level of condemnation is appropriate....but what should we say about people literally combing through twitter accounts looking for offenses.  James Gunn had already shown contrition prior to someone doing that to him, that didn't seem to move the needle.  If contrition and resolve to be a better person is irrelevant once one has said something offensive.....well what do we want then?  Which would lead me to another example - August Ames.  There were those in her mob that not only drove her to suicide but reveled in the result.  

 

What makes the social mobbing so dangerous is that it comes from those that are largely anonymous - giving them no reason to show caution, consider context, or display empathy.  They can attack with impunity.  And they do so over a medium that is impossible for many to escape.  This is where the bullying parallel is apt - for some, once the ball gets rolling, there is no escape from it.  There is only the relentless, aggressive attacks.  

 

And let's not pretend these sorts of mobs only form around the most egregious and obvious cases.  They clearly don't.  (I don't think you believe this, but clearly there are others in the thread willing to ignore this fact)  This has become a fashionable way to tear down those you disagree with.  It has basically been weaponized.

 

So while I support the handling of Roseanne and I support (though am wary of how they were unearthed) the condemnation of Hader, I can also point to a lot of examples where this approach is not only unfair but outright dangerous.  No one, of any political affiliation, would stand for violent mobs dragging these people from their homes and inflicting physical punishment.  But somehow, because the hoods we wear aren't literal but instead the anonymity of the internet, and the punishment is emotional - look aside how visceral and dangerous it is.

 

That, in and of itself, is pretty dangerous to me.  I don't like it.  I'm all about eliminating racism, but it seems to me we can slay King Kong without raising Godzilla.

 

 

Fair points, all. Should we just ignore vile tweets? I know you aren't arguing this....but I'm not sure what you are suggesting we do instead of pointing them out an condemning them?

 

and yes, I'm not a fan of the digging for bad actions in the past, as a general rule.....that said, the mob is also responsible for the "me too" movement, in some ways. 

 

I hate "the mob" as a rule, but I'm not sure saying "we shouldn't be the mob" is enough for me....what is the alternative?

[KirbyDome89]

 

I have no idea what those responses have to do with giving the guy a standing ovation? I'm talking about the fans, not his tweets......how can giving him a standing ovation be positive?

 

If social media is powerful, I'd guess RT offensive lyrics has power. Just turn the telescope from the masses to the tweet they are responding to (and the millions of tweets like it). 

 

I literally posted that teenage boys do this all the time, and that they do (mostly) change and not even really understand what they are doing when they say/tweet this stuff out in the first place. I think we are closer on that part than you seem to be implying.

There's nothing about the entire situation that is a positive, but I've never claimed that. Both the tweets and the ovation are being portrayed in the most negative light possible, i.e. the tweets are blatant racism and the ovation is in support of the racism. Like I said, we know that quoting lyrics isn't the same thing as maliciously using the language tweeted. In that same vein, the ovation could easily be a push back against the trial by social media, and I've already touched on the "our guy," aspect of it. Racing to label Hader a racist ect. is willfully ignoring any nuance. 

 

I'm not going to defend the content of the lyrics, or any subsequent RT. That isn't what I'm doing here, but rather than a telescope, what's being used is a microscope (one with filters) to become selectively outraged.

 

You're right, we're very close on this, and it wasn't my intention to imply that we aren't if that's how you read it. 

[TheLeviathan]

Fair points, all. Should we just ignore vile tweets? I know you aren't arguing this....but I'm not sure what you are suggesting we do instead of pointing them out an condemning them?

 

and yes, I'm not a fan of the digging for bad actions in the past, as a general rule.....that said, the mob is also responsible for the "me too" movement, in some ways. 

 

I hate "the mob" as a rule, but I'm not sure saying "we shouldn't be the mob" is enough for me....what is the alternative?

I don't know what the alternative is. Part of the issue is the prevalence of toxicity in the social media platforms regardless of the mob. I don't know if there is a fix for that.

 

I think the mob with Hader was appropriately restrained, but I guess your question leads me to another. What is it we want to accomplish?

 

For those that offend, if we deem a mob necessary, what should happen to them? It seems contrition is insufficient.

 

I guess for me, Part of the problem with endorsing the mob is that mobs rarely share common goals for outcomes other than the worst we can imagine.