Article: Revisiting Molitor vs. Lovullo

[wsnydes]

No they are not self explanatory. What do special assistants assist with? What do consultants consult about. What do all these layers do and what is the manager suppose to do. It is not clear at all.

This is a reasonable point. Special assistant is pretty vague unless accompanied by what they're assisting with. My understanding is that they're just former players that help wherever they're needed and are available to current players to ask questions or work with them. Kepler has been working with Morneau on how to hit lefties, for instance.

[wsnydes]

I was once employed as an assistant manager. I soon figured out that the assistant was there to take the crap for anything that goes wrong. In our system I see Molitor as an on the field assistant to the FO. I feel sorry for him.

I think a more appropriate comparison would be district/regional manager to Molitor's store manager. He's in charge of the players, the FO is supposed to give him what he needs.

 

I don't disagree that the FO has fallen short in areas, but the things that Molitor is in control of are lacking in my view.

[old nurse]

 

IMO, hiring someone to lead a MLB team that had never managed before was a mistake. Leading a large group of people is not something you just pick up w/o any practice.

Jeff Banister, John Farrell, Mike Matheny, Don Mattingly, Bo Porter, Dave Roberts , Scott Servais Ron Washington say hello. Most of them picked it up just fine with no previous managerial experience.

[curt1965]

You keep saying this, but have never explained why MLB is the only team situation in the world where leadership and management has no effect on performance.

Simply writing out the lineups every day and making pitching changes has an enormous impact. How could it not?

And that ignores all the intangible stuff, which is almost certainly even more important. Keeping 25 people focused and working, over 6 months, is not something that just happens. Details matter, particularly when we're talking about the very best performers at a given task.

And for my money, Molitor appears bad at all of that.

He's operating at a talent deficit, but that's not an excuse for much of the poor execution, lack of fundamentals, and overall malaise we've seen way too much of.

 

PERFECT!!!!

[DocBauer]

First, this is an intelligent and well thought out thread with no real bias. Thank you Jamie.

 

Second, I have to refer to some things I said in Nicks article. Molitor is NOT responsible for Santana, Polanco, Mauer's injury, Dozier to have his worst season and "cold streak", nor Morrison having probably the worst season of his career, nor the injury to Castro. Norris he directly responsible, IMO, for Sano's injury and rehab and off-season distractions, nor Buxton's injuries. Kepler's sudden regression is debatable. IF we want to hold him accountable for at least some of these, then let's give him, and his staff, credit for Berrios, Escobar and Rosario.

 

Also, I find it ridiculous to say he lead a team to contention up until the end of the 2015 season, lead them to a disastrous 2016 season, and only improved a few games in 2017. A hot couple of months notwithstanding,they are different season's, a year apart, and have to be considered individually. The Twins were hot as hell to finish 2017. OK. So Cleveland's magic run in 2017 DOES count however?

 

Third, there are so many things I like, and have issues with, in responses, that I couldn't possibly address all of them independently. So here goes:

 

A] I completely agree that star players seldom make the best managers and head coaches because everything to them was so natural and obvious that they simply don't know how to translate and identify with their team. History has shown us that in most any sport. That doesn't mean Molitor can't, and he's been learning on the job...still a mistake IMO...and has had his team in contention 2 of his 3 full season's.

 

B] I do find the comparison between 2 teams and 2 managers interesting but a bit misguided. Each team may be decimated, but one team may have certain players who perform above average, or have a hot prospect or two who steps in to counter the loss.

 

C] I still believe a manger has a big impact on his team. Baseball in the only sport that has a "manager". He's still a "head coach". The best head coaches oversee EVERYTHING and delegate to his assistants, and sticks his nose in where it belongs, and where he can help best. And they lead their team, whether it be a 12 game season or 162. The Twins don't look like they want to compete? Boy, they sure competed and never gave up in 2017!

 

No matter how you want to view Molitor, the jury is still out. We've seen a lot of good in '15 and '17. We've also seen a good deal of bad, including stubbornness, at times, with his lineup and bullpen usage. I simply can't blame him for everything that has gone wrong this season. Now, stubbornness and basic gaffes have me frustrated and wondering what he is doing and what his input really is.

 

It is one thing to deal with injuries, suspensions etc. Again, every team and every situation is different. But how does the team perform the second half of the season? How does the lineup look and perform? How is the pen used? To me, the second half of this season will define the job Molitor does. And whether he is the guy going forward.

[DocBauer]

First, this is an intelligent and well thought out thread with no real bias. Thank you Jamie.

 

Second, I have to refer to some things I said in Nicks article. Molitor is NOT responsible for Santana, Polanco, Mauer's injury, Dozier to have his worst season and "cold streak", nor Morrison having probably the worst season of his career, nor the injury to Castro. Norris he directly responsible, IMO, for Sano's injury and rehab and off-season distractions, nor Buxton's injuries. Kepler's sudden regression is debatable. IF we want to hold him accountable for at least some of these, then let's give him, and his staff, credit for Berrios, Escobar and Rosario.

 

Also, I find it ridiculous to say he lead a team to contention up until the end of the 2015 season, lead them to a disastrous 2016 season, and only improved a few games in 2017. A hot couple of months notwithstanding,they are different season's, a year apart, and have to be considered individually. The Twins were hot as hell to finish 2017. OK. So Cleveland's magic run in 2017 DOES count however?

 

Third, there are so many things I like, and have issues with, in responses, that I couldn't possibly address all of them independently. So here goes:

 

A] I completely agree that star players seldom make the best managers and head coaches because everything to them was so natural and obvious that they simply don't know how to translate and identify with their team. History has shown us that in most any sport. That doesn't mean Molitor can't, and he's been learning on the job...still a mistake IMO...and has had his team in contention 2 of his 3 full season's.

 

B] I do find the comparison between 2 teams and 2 managers interesting but a bit misguided. Each team may be decimated, but one team may have certain players who perform above average, or have a hot prospect or two who steps in to counter the loss.

 

C] I still believe a manger has a big impact on his team. Baseball in the only sport that has a "manager". He's still a "head coach". The best head coaches oversee EVERYTHING and delegate to his assistants, and sticks his nose in where it belongs, and where he can help best. And they lead their team, whether it be a 12 game season or 162. The Twins don't look like they want to compete? Boy, they sure competed and never gave up in 2017!

 

No matter how you want to view Molitor, the jury is still out. We've seen a lot of good in '15 and '17. We've also seen a good deal of bad, including stubbornness, at times, with his lineup and bullpen usage. I simply can't blame him for everything that has gone wrong this season. Now, stubbornness and basic gaffes have me frustrated and wondering what he is doing and what his input really is.

 

It is one thing to deal with injuries, suspensions etc. Again, every team and every situation is different. But how does the team perform the second half of the season? How does the lineup look and perform? How is the pen used? To me, the second half of this season will define the job Molitor does. And whether he is the guy going forward.

[curt1965]

Very well stated, Doc, and I agree this was a terrific article! I have a couple of additional comments.

I’ve always thought a team took on the persona of its manager. It’s only my opinion, but because Molitor is so laid back, I wonder if his team takes losing to easily?

In addition, while granting the present team’s talent level is as bad as it’s been for a long while, I always look at the little things a manager can do to get more out of a player than is expected. Maybe a hit and run, a big change in the batting order, or really anything to cause a spark that might shake a team out of their doldrums. One thing is certain, also.

It doesn’t help that good players are sent back to Rochester (Busenitz), while others are given extremely questionable roster spots for no apparent reason (Belisle).

 

[launchingthrees]

 

It would make more sense.  Let me summarize every future manager thread:

 

I like manager: Every time we play well: "he's awesome! All to his credit" When we don't play well: "Fill in excuse here"

 

I don't like manager: Every time we play well: "yeah but he got lucky, his players are the ones who get credit", When we play poorly: "He sucks, it's his fault"

 

Pretty much exactly what this article produced too.  Even managed to do it about another team's manager in the same article!  At some point when nobody can come up with a good argument for their position, maybe it's not a topic worth talking about.

 

That's not how this thread has gone at all. People have explained exactly what they like or don't like about Molitor and it's not because of small samples of wins/loses.

 

I just don't get the point of bombing every single Molitor thread with multiple posts about how little managers effect the game and then back it up with no evidence whatsoever. 

 

Manager's roles are certainly going to be different in the future and Molitor doesn't check any of the boxes.

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/11/being-a-good-manager-is-no-longer-good-enough/544784/

Edited June 30, 2018 by launchingthrees

[mikelink45]

 

This is a reasonable point. Special assistant is pretty vague unless accompanied by what they're assisting with. My understanding is that they're just former players that help wherever they're needed and are available to current players to ask questions or work with them. Kepler has been working with Morneau on how to hit lefties, for instance.

I would be nice to see them out there, to know that they are engaged and to see them help someone progress, but there are so many of these, so many voices and levels, is it confusing?  Who does Buxton listen too, for example.

 

[TheLeviathan]

 

People have explained exactly what they like or don't like 

 

The article literally tells us to ignore the time when the team played well under Molitor.  And literally ignores how the D-backs played in May.  

 

The prior thread brought out such ground-breaking evidence as "He's not Tom Kelly"  You know, the guy who couldn't finish .500 for a decade. 

 

The truth is - there isn't much evidence.  It's all feelings, largely about middle managers.  You're entitled to your feelings,but pretending you have anything resembling concrete evidence is a fantasy.

[Nine of twelve]

 

IMO, hiring someone to lead a MLB team that had never managed before was a mistake. Leading a large group of people is not something you just pick up w/o any practice.

Managing in the minors is much different from managing in MLB because player development and teaching are by far the most important things. As a result, decisions about who plays where and does what and when are approached much differently. My opinion is that a long-term MLB coach is probably better prepared to manage in MLB than a long-term minor league manager.

[Doctor Wu]

You wrote:

 

they are however, second in pickoffs with 12.

 

I'm nitpicking here (hey, I was an editor for a few years!), but shouldn't that be second in having runners picked off base, as opposed to having our pitchers excel at making pickoffs? I assume that's what you meant, but I had to read that a few times to figure it out.

Edited June 30, 2018 by Doctor Wu

[Doctor Wu]

I'm not a huge fan of Molitor as a manager, and I think we could easily find a better fit for the team. But I also think it's unfair to blame him for the performance of the team so far this year. Too many injuries and a suspension and other weirdness that's beyond his control.

[USAFChief]

The article literally tells us to ignore the time when the team played well under Molitor. And literally ignores how the D-backs played in May.

 

The prior thread brought out such ground-breaking evidence as "He's not Tom Kelly" You know, the guy who couldn't finish .500 for a decade.

 

The truth is - there isn't much evidence. It's all feelings, largely about middle managers. You're entitled to your feelings,but pretending you have anything resembling concrete evidence is a fantasy.

Well of course there's not much evidence if you literally ignore all of it.

 

Few are pointing solely at Wins and losses in isolation, for example. But by all means, set up more strawmen to destroy.

 

Molitor can't turn water into wine, we get that.

 

Neither could Tom Kelly. But he could and did get the water to flow properly.

[h2oface]

The Front office has filled the injury spots with dumpster diving replacements. It really is pathetic. I like to think things have changed, but with this roster... not much, bottom line.

Everyone, every team, has injuries etc. Poor excuse. These guys should be able to play at least .500 baseball.

 

Molitor is just too old. Too old for the new game. This whole team is really sad to watch. So very disappointing. Daily. And now they just stack the roster with tired rejects instead of culture the farm and let them lose like these clowns. Makes one want to just not watch this year.

[jtkoupal]

Paul Molitor has had moments. Such as the end of 2017 as well as the striking improvement in 2015 from where they were.

 

However, Paul has also been in charge of the 2016 team that lost 24 more games than the year before despite having largely the same group of players. Furthermore, he is failing with the best roster he has had in his tenure.

 

There is no excuse for the Twins to be failing this miserably given the roster that they have. At season's end, Molitor might just be packing his bags.

[TheLeviathan]

Well of course there's not much evidence if you literally ignore all of it

Please, post hard evidence. I have yet to see any.....pro or con. As the article I posted shows, it sorta doesn't exist.

[ken]

Furthermore, he is failing with the best roster he has had in his tenure.

 

There is no excuse for the Twins to be failing this miserably given the roster that they have. At season's end, Molitor might just be packing his bags.

We must be watching different teams. With the injuries and in season moves,the roster is terrible.

[Riverbrian]

 

We must be watching different teams. With the injuries and in season moves,the roster is terrible.

 

It's not Injuries. 

 

https://www.rosterresource.com/mlb-disabled-list-tracker/

 

There are teams in contention that have had worse injury luck than we have.

 

After you look at the offensive production of Buxton, Castro and Sano. It could be successfully argued that 3 of the DL Stints actually improved the team. 

 

It has been without question, the poor performance of the healthy. 

 

 

[old nurse]

 

Neither could Tom Kelly. But he could and did get the water to flow properly.

Total zone says that Kelly's team were poor fielders.  They did not make errors, they did not make plays, either.

[ken]

It's not Injuries.

 

https://www.rosterresource.com/mlb-disabled-list-tracker/

 

 

It has been without question, the poor performance of the healthy.

AKA,a terrible roster

[h2oface]

 

AKA,a terrible roster

 

I don't agree. The last two months of 2017 it wasn't a terrible roster. Other than the replacement pickups, it is the same. If it wasn't terrible then, why would the same players be considered terrible now? Other than the same players have been way worse, and the coaches and managers haven't been able to work their observations into getting them out of their funk, which, I do believe, is their jobs. If the player(s) is/are performing well, you don't coach them. You leave them the hell alone. If they are slumping, and not performing up to their previous level or potential, then it is the manager and coaches job to "fix" them immediately if not sooner! This is a classic example of wholesale failure, and the same in Rochester. Other than a few prospects, the whole minor league system is disappointing. Winners have become losers this year. It is very telling to me. 

 

All teams have injuries. It is not the injuries. Plenty of teams have more than the Twins. To use injuries as an excuse...... is just being in denial.

Edited July 1, 2018 by h2oface

[nicksaviking]

AKA,a terrible roster

It only looks that way because Buxton, Sano, Kepler and Garver have all taken gigantic steps back in their development.

 

I think that falls under the perview of the manager.

[launchingthrees]

 

Please, post hard evidence. I have yet to see any.....pro or con. As the article I posted shows, it sorta doesn't exist.

 

 

 

Hard evidence of what? You're literally arguing that you're smarter than 100% of front offices. What are your qualification to be a thought leader for MLB front offices? 

[TheLeviathan]

 

Hard evidence of what? You're literally arguing that you're smarter than 100% of front offices. What are your qualification to be a thought leader for MLB front offices? 

 

Chief said I'm ignoring evidence about managers.  I asked him to post evidence about what makes Molitor a bad manager. I also posted an article suggesting such evidence is nearly impossible to find/quantify.

 

Everyone is welcome to feel like they approve of Molitor or don't.  It's like who you choose to like/dislike as a player.  Everyone has their preferences.  Where it gets silly is when any of you think you have some quantifiable, evidence based reason for it.  I might as well start a thread about how "likable" Fernando Rodney is.  That's what these threads ultimately break down to.  There is no real evidence for anyone's position, just personal preferences.

Edited July 1, 2018 by TheLeviathan

[Riverbrian]

What I want to know is: 

 

How much influence does Paul have when it comes to the 25 man roster? 

 

The answer to that question will determine how much blame I place on Molitor. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ken]

I don't agree. The last two months of 2017 it wasn't a terrible roster. Other than the replacement pickups, it is the same. If it wasn't terrible then, why would the same players be considered terrible now? Other than the same players have been way worse, and the coaches and managers haven't been able to work their observations into getting them out of their funk, which, I do believe, is their jobs. If the player(s) is/are performing well, you don't coach them. You leave them the hell alone. If they are slumping, and not performing up to their previous level or potential, then it is the manager and coaches job to "fix" them immediately if not sooner! This is a classic example of wholesale failure, and the same in Rochester. Other than a few prospects, the whole minor league system is disappointing. Winners have become losers this year. It is very telling to me.

 

All teams have injuries. It is not the injuries. Plenty of teams have more than the Twins. To use injuries as an excuse...... is just being in denial.

The trade deadline should tells us if it's a talent or terrible roster. If they don't have any players with trade value, it will be hard to says this is a talented roster.

[Doomtints]

 

The Twins have been without five key players for almost the entire season. Ignoring that impact (and excusing their performance the 2nd half of 2017) is cherry picking.  

 

Maybe, but it's the Twins way. A certain Twins GM lost his job for this very thing.

[Champuckett]

Molitor is a family friend pick as the manager.

 

He has name recognition as a famous baseball player, he is a hall of famer, he was born in Minnesota, he played as a Gopher, he played as a Minnesota Twin, he got his 3000th hit while in Twins uniform, and heck, he's a nice guy.

 

These are the things that appeal to the owners and their family.

 

He was not hired and then rehired because he was the best man to help turn us into a winning team.  He was chosen because he fit their family friendly and name recognition priorities and the hope was, in addition, he would add a winning formula to the franchise as well.  That did not happen, so here we are, and now we are increasingly becoming aware of the poor decision this was and continues to be.

[KGB]

Molitor is a family friend pick as the manager.

 

He has name recognition as a famous baseball player, he is a hall of famer, he was born in Minnesota, he played as a Gopher, he played as a Minnesota Twin, he got his 3000th hit while in Twins uniform, and heck, he's a nice guy.

 

These are the things that appeal to the owners and their family.

 

He was not hired and then rehired because he was the best man to help turn us into a winning team.  He was chosen because he fit their family friendly and name recognition priorities and the hope was, in addition, he would add a winning formula to the franchise as well.  That did not happen, so here we are, and now we are increasingly becoming aware of the poor decision this was and continues to be.

That may have been a factor in the first contract,but if it was in this off-season contract,there is no hope for this front office