Article: Is Paul Molitor the Right Man to Lead the Twins?

[Mr. Brooks]

Tough for me to evaluate also but that doesn’t matter. It better be something Falvey does well and he can’t accept an average manager. They need better.

I'm worried that it's not Falvey's call.

[launchingthrees]

 

All of this.

 

Outside of Pressly, none of the Twins relievers are anywhere near overworked. That's the one criticism I just don't get, and which just isn't based on any sound data whatsoever. 

This is arguably true today but it certainly wasn't 3 weeks ago. Though why are you using total innings pitched and not IP/Game? We've played 5 games less than the Tigers, and 3 less than the Indians, and have played the fewest games in the AL. For the first 2 months of the season Molitor would just shrug with a blank look on his face and throw Reed or Pressley out there. It was cringworthy.

 

We had 3 guys in the top 10 for RP usage 3 weeks ago, way outside accepted norms. Even today we have 3 of the 18 most used pitchers in the AL. Someone clearly told Molitor in no uncertain terms to cut it out because they haven't been pitched much at all in those 3 weeks. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by launchingthrees

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Yet, injuries can't be blamed for the lack of situational awareness, prevalent base running gaffes, defensive gaffes and poor bullpen management that have plagued the entirety of his managerial tenure. The first three take no level of talent to understand or execute - it's simply being aware of what is going on in the game. So simply saying that Molitor has been handcuffed with injuries or a lack of talent and should get a pass because of it is missing where the dissatisfaction stems from.

furthermore, was he not a roving minor league instructor for the core players? How is defensive miscues and baserunning gaffes not on him?

[jimmer]

Molitor is fine. The record the Twins had last year are making people believe this team as constructed is better than it is and Molitor is the scapegoat. Lots of players are underperforming, there have been some key injuries and this team just isn't that good.

 

I have, however, completely turned around on Rosario. After seeing how he is with the fans live, he is now my favorite current Twin.

Edited June 20, 2018 by jimmer

[gman]

After 4 years he has not proven he is the correct man for the job. I think that is the answer.

[jimmer]

After 4 years he has not proven he is the correct man for the job. I think that is the answer.

after 4 years the talent hasn't been good enough to warrant a quality record no matter who is steering the ship. I think that is the correct answer.

[launchingthrees]

 

after 4 years the talent hasn't been good enough to warrant a quality record no matter who is steering the ship. I think that is the correct answer.

 

Our farm system 4 years ago was better in most expert's eyes than the Astros Pirates, and Cubs. We should be competing with them at a minimum. At some point you have to ask why we get the least from our prospects and other teams get the most. Our prospects do well in the minors and then they get here...

 

https://www.baseballprospectus.com/prospects/article/22906/prospects-will-break-your-heart-2014-organizational-rankings/

Edited June 20, 2018 by launchingthrees

[jimmer]

 

Our farm system 5 years ago was better in most expert's eyes than both the Astros and the Cubs. We should be competing with them at a minimum. Who takes the blame when elite prospects bust?

How about player development in the minors?  This has been a problem since long before Molitor was in charge.  When they get to the majors, they should be ready to play in the majors.  Molitor isn't responsible for our two best prospects not living up to expectations.

[Mike Sixel]

Talent or no, his bullpen management is suspect. The team seems bad at fundamentals, and the major league staff he leads has failed at improving their two most important players. It isn't just about wins and losses....

[The_Phantom]

Big shock, the batter that berrios crosses the magic number is his last. Lol we could just put a buzzer in an earpiece and when the 100th pitch is thrown the player can just walk out. No reason for a mound visit. Autopilot manager.

[jimmer]

 

Talent or no, his bullpen management is suspect. The team seems bad at fundamentals, and the major league staff he leads has failed at improving their two most important players. It isn't just about wins and losses....

Practically every manager's bullpen management is suspect and if you look around baseball forums it is the number one complaint about every manager in the game by the fans of those teams. His mistakes are just magnified (for us) due to it being our team and the fact he has so little bullpen talent to count on so he has to overuse the few good pieces we have.

 

And fundamentals shouldn't need to be taught at the major league level.  That's like rookie ball and Single A stuff.  Certainly by the time a guy deserves to be brought up he has those down...or should.  And if not shame on the development team and or the player.

 

And also, lack of fundamentals on occasion is not something unique to the Twins. 

Edited June 20, 2018 by jimmer

[launchingthrees]

 

How about player development in the minors?  This has been a problem since long before Molitor was in charge.  When they get to the majors, they should be ready to play in the majors.  Molitor isn't responsible for our two best prospects not living up to expectations.

 

You mentioned Molitor not having enough talent to work with. We'll just have to agree to disagree. No manager had access to the type of talent Molitor walked in to. 

 

Stated another way: what do you think Molitor is really good at? You seem to think he's done well. At what though?

[jimmer]

 

You mentioned Molitor not having enough talent to work with. We'll just have to agree to disagree. No manager had access to the type of talent Molitor walked in to. 

 

Stated another way: what do you think Molitor is really good at? You seem to think he's done well. At what though?

I said he's fine.  I didn't state he was a top manager. I just think that on the list of problems we have, I don't see him as the reason this team isn't getting it done.  And if he was gone tomorrow, I don't think the talent on this team gets us anywhere closer.

 

He seems to have the respect of his players.  Players seem to like him.  The team isn't bickering or overly complaining.  And he knows the game.  

 

Now, when you say no manager has had access to the type of talent he did, what do you mean?  Any manager?  Any Twins manager?  Cause certainly more MLB managers have and Gardy inherited a darn fine team made by Kelly.  I'm confused by that statement in many ways.

Edited June 20, 2018 by jimmer

[Riverbrian]

 

What defensive gaffes?  Rosario throwing to the wrong base or no base in particular.  Grossman airmailing cutoff men.  Throwing down to 2B to nab a slow as molasses runner stealing 2B while the runner on 3B scampers home to score.  These aren't physical errors, they're mental and they happen far too frequently for a professional baseball team.

 

What baserunning gaffes?  Logan Morrison getting picked off of 2B late in a tie game.  Rosario rounding 1B on a hit to RF and getting picked off when the throw goes behind him.  Getting in more rundowns than a Little League team.  These are mental errors and they happen far to frequently for a professional baseball team.

 

Neither of those two things require any particular level of skill, just awareness of what's going on.  

 

Poor bullpen management - I'll refer you to Chielf's comment (post #48) above since he already did the work for me.

 

These things contribute to the overall record and have no relation to the injuries you're using as an excuse.  

 

Yeah but Logan Morrison isn't a rookie and he surely knows how to take a lead off of second and Rosario has been playing long enough to know the cut system. Paul isn't coaching little league, these guys know the universal fundamentals of the game by now. If they don't... a major league manager doesn't have a chance. 

 

If Molitor has to pull the players out of a more advanced calculus class to teach one plus one equals two he doesn't have a chance. 

 

I'm hesitant to blame Paul for this.  

 

 

[launchingthrees]

 

I said he's fine.  I didn't state he was a top manager. I just think that on the list of problems we have, I don't see him as the reason this team isn't getting it done.  And if he was gone tomorrow, I don't think the talent on this team gets us anywhere closer.

 

He seems to have the respect of his players.  Players seem to like him.  The team isn't bickering or overly complaining.  And he knows the game.  

 

Now, when you say no manager has had access to the type of talent he did, what do you mean?  Any manager?  Any Twins manager?  Cause certainly more MLB managers have and Gardy inherited a darn fine team made by Kelly.  I'm confused by that statement in many ways.

 

Yeah whether he has the respect of his players is something I could never know, or really care about. He just seems tired, indifferent, and confused a lot of the time. And people defend him but never really say what he's good at or what they like about him.

 

Like if you said Eddie Rosario is a below average baseball player I would defend him by listing a bunch of ways he's really good at baseball. Whenever a Molitor discussion comes up no one can come up with reasons they think he's a good manager. 100% of the time it's "he's not that bad". I'm looking for better than that even if it means taking on risk.

Edited June 20, 2018 by launchingthrees

[jimmer]

 

Yeah whether he has the respect of his players is something I could never know, or really care about. He just seems tired, indifferent, and confused a lot of the time. And people defend him but never really say what he's good at or what they like about him.

 

Like if you said Eddie Rosario is bad at baseball I would defend him by listing a bunch of ways he's really good at baseball. Whenever a Molitor discussion comes up no one can come up with reasons they think he's a good manager. 100% of the time it's "he's not that bad". I'm looking for better than that even if it means taking risk.

I believe I answered what I think he's good at and what I like about him.  Being a manager is about managing people and their egos to get them to work toward a common goal.  That's true of all managers in any profession. There are better ones and there are worse ones than Molitor. With the talent on this team, we could have the best one and I think it's make little difference but maybe a game or three.  Talent is what wins.

 

Again, when you state no manager has had access to the type of talent Molitor did, what do you mean?Any manager?Any Twins manager?Cause certainly more MLB managers have and Gardy inherited a darn fine team made by Kelly. So, I'm confused by that statement in many ways

Edited June 20, 2018 by jimmer

[USAFChief]

 

Yeah but Logan Morrison isn't a rookie and he surely knows how to take a lead off of second and Rosario has been playing long enough to know the cut system. Paul isn't coaching little league, these guys know the universal fundamentals of the game by now. If they don't... a major league manager doesn't have a chance. 

 

If Molitor has to pull the players out of a more advanced calculus class to teach one plus one equals two he doesn't have a chance. 

 

I'm hesitant to blame Paul for this.  

I might be wrong, but if Tom Kelly was still managing, I believe the throws from Rosario that sail to the backstop would cease after one occurrence. He and Eddie would be out there after the game practicing hitting the cutoff, and if it happened again, they'd be back out there after the game practicing again, and Eddie wouldn't be in the lineup the next night.

 

It's not that the players don't KNOW the fundamentals, it's that Molitor doesn't know how to get players to pay attention to them.

[TheLeviathan]

Tom Kelly had 8 consecutive seasons under .500.  And I could find all kinds of absurd things he did in his managing times.  Ditto Gardy.

 

Debates about the quality of a MLB manager result in so many absurd, inconsistent arguments it makes my brain hurt.  This thread is not disappointing in that respect.

 

I appreciate that Nick attempted to stay above that.

[launchingthrees]

 

 

Again, when you say no manager has had access to the type of talent he did, what do you mean?Any manager?Any Twins manager?Cause certainly more MLB managers have and Gardy inherited a darn fine team made by Kelly.I'm confused by that statement in many ways

 

I mean organization depth the day he took over as manager, how teams with #1 prospect systems have done over the last 30 years, player's in-season production vs preseason projections over the past 4 years, how free agents have performed here vs their former teams. 

 

I believe those are the best way to judge a manager's performance. 500 games is enough for me and hopefully it's enough for management to move on. He genuinely seems confused a lot of the time.

Edited June 20, 2018 by launchingthrees

[Mike Sixel]

Practically every manager's bullpen management is suspect and if you look around baseball forums it is the number one complaint about every manager in the game by the fans of those teams. His mistakes are just magnified (for us) due to it being our team and the fact he has so little bullpen talent to count on so he has to overuse the few good pieces we have.

 

And fundamentals shouldn't need to be taught at the major league level. That's like rookie ball and Single A stuff. Certainly by the time a guy deserves to be brought up he has those down...or should. And if not shame on the development team and or the player.

 

And also, lack of fundamentals on occasion is not something unique to the Twins.

Maddon disagrees, and says you still need to teach in the majors, especially as the league gets younger.

[Mike Sixel]

Tom Kelly had 8 consecutive seasons under .500. And I could find all kinds of absurd things he did in his managing times. Ditto Gardy.

 

Debates about the quality of a MLB manager result in so many absurd, inconsistent arguments it makes my brain hurt. This thread is not disappointing in that respect.

 

I appreciate that Nick attempted to stay above that.

so, don't criticize the manager?

[jimmer]

 

Maddon disagrees, and says you still need to teach in the majors, especially as the league gets younger.

I never said teaching stops once the player hits the majors.  But basic fundamentals?  That should be done in the minors.  If a refresher course is needed in the majors, fine.  But some of our players make the same fundamental mistakes over and over and I highly doubt Molitor, with his baseball knowledge, has just skipped over doing his part to make that stop.  Players, ultimately need to stop making those mistakes or it's on them.

[jimmer]

 

so, don't criticize the manager?

Even people who think firing Molitor won't solve our problems find reasons to criticize him because every manager makes mistakes, even Maddon (who is one of the very best managers in the game right now and, perhaps, ever).

Edited June 20, 2018 by jimmer

[TheLeviathan]

 

so, don't criticize the manager?

 

I'm pretty sure I clearly indicated how I appreciate Nick's criticism.  So...no.  Isn't this the same kind of complete disregard for comprehending a post you often complain about?

 

Be critical with evidence.  And consider context.  Parker's post on the bullpen stuff has seemingly been  ignored but is pretty important to consider.  But "Tom Kelly would've X" is immediately a really, really bad argument.  

[Mike Sixel]

I'm pretty sure I clearly indicated how I appreciate Nick's criticism. So...no. Isn't this the same kind of complete disregard for comprehending a post you often complain about?

 

Be critical with evidence. And consider context. Parker's post on the bullpen stuff has seemingly been ignored but is pretty important to consider. But "Tom Kelly would've X" is immediately a really, really bad argument.

Tom Kelly?

[jimmer]

 

  But "Tom Kelly would've X" is immediately a really, really bad argument.  

Yes, an incredibly bad argument.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Tom Kelly?

 

Yes, less than 10 posts ago that was dragged out.

[launchingthrees]

 

I'm pretty sure I clearly indicated how I appreciate Nick's criticism.  So...no.  Isn't this the same kind of complete disregard for comprehending a post you often complain about?

 

Be critical with evidence.  And consider context.  Parker's post on the bullpen stuff has seemingly been  ignored but is pretty important to consider.  But "Tom Kelly would've X" is immediately a really, really bad argument.  

 

Critiquing other's arguments is trivially easy. Making an argument as to why Moltor is a good manager is proving to be much more difficult.

Edited June 20, 2018 by launchingthrees

[TheLeviathan]

 

Critiquing other's arguments is trivially easy. Making an argument as to why Moltor is a good manager is proving to be much more difficult.

 

Frankly, I think the next dog you see could manage a baseball team to about 2 less wins than Maddon.  

 

That's how much I think of the position in the current baseball context.  If Molitor is fired or retained I think it's largely irrelevant.

Edited June 20, 2018 by TheLeviathan

[jimmer]

 

Critiquing other's arguments is trivially easy. Making an argument as to why Moltor is a good manager is proving to be much more difficult.

just cause you discard the reasons given doesn't make them poor reasons.  I've yet to see complaints about Molitor that most fans of teams don't complain about their own managers doing.