Melotakis Released

[Mike Sixel]

I am the opposite - put them in let them prove they do not belong. The FA you sign is sure to cost more than the value you receive.

Why do we care about value? I care about wins, not cost per win.

[Mr. Brooks]

This sort of feels like some of my experiences where a new manager is hired over a department, and in about 6 months to a year you see some of their people coming from their old company, and people the new manager does not like leaving. This was the point I was making.

It could be entirely baseball judgement, but the fact that Chargois is already on a major league roster, Burdi is on the DL, and Bard was just returned seems to tell me that other GM's have different valuations of this players.

Bard being returned shows that other GM's have the same valuation as ours did.

[Rosterman]

But the question still remains: Why allow TOP prospects to depart, yet minor league free agents keep minor league roster spots. Most minor league free agents will be gone come year's end, and are also on the upside of age (26+ or older). Sure, someone like Melotakis will also be a free agent come season's end. But, would one rather take a major league look at a Melotakis than, say, a Magill (or Boshers) or Jaye. Yes, at some point the player numbers become an issue. You can only send them so far back for so long. But reading the lines: Nick Buss back from DL, Melotakis designated. Ramsey to disabled list. Granite back. You are putting more worth in, say, Nick Buss than Mason Melotakis today?

[drivlikejehu]

Melotakis is a AAAA player. He has zero value.

[Mr. Brooks]

But the question still remains: Why allow TOP prospects to depart, yet minor league free agents keep minor league roster spots. Most minor league free agents will be gone come year's end, and are also on the upside of age (26+ or older). Sure, someone like Melotakis will also be a free agent come season's end. But, would one rather take a major league look at a Melotakis than, say, a Magill (or Boshers) or Jaye. Yes, at some point the player numbers become an issue. You can only send them so far back for so long. But reading the lines: Nick Buss back from DL, Melotakis designated. Ramsey to disabled list. Granite back. You are putting more worth in, say, Nick Buss than Mason Melotakis today?

If they don't feel he's a MLB caliber pitcher, does it matter which milb depth players they keep?

I don't feel like Melotakis is any better than any of those other guys you mentioned.

[Seth Stohs]

 

But the question still remains: Why allow TOP prospects to depart,

 

I guess I'd ask what TOP prospects they've let depart. 

[beckmt]

 

Bard being returned shows that other GM's have the same valuation as ours did.

All that says to me is that Bard is about equal to Curtiss, neither has enough command now to pitch a lot at the major league level.  Whether either or both will ever be effective at the major league level is still not known.  I would come closer to betting on Bard,

[Doctor Wu]

I'm still waiting for the return of Samuel Deduno. Really.

[Major League Ready]

 

Why do we care about value? I care about wins, not cost per win.

 

You might want to rethink this position given their are other teams have nearly twice our revenue.  The only way to post a playoff worthy record is to achieving a lower cost:win ration.  Cost/win is an absolutely critical metric.  Fans of teams in salary cap leagues are quite aware of this reality and the discussion around player value is very different.

[gocgo]

Change of subject, but has Hindenberger turned a corner and returned to last years form?  I was really frustrated with him early on, but he seems to be better lately.

[ThejacKmp]

 

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.  Chargois and Bard both seem to be as good if not better than Curtiss.  Burdi could be the lottery ticket.  

At the current time, do not see Curtiss having the necessary control of his slider to be effective at the major league level.  Will keep an eye on this and could be wrong, but am worried about the trend.

 

Agree to disagree? Your theory that the front office is giving up on good pitchers because they don't like TR guys is pretty farfetched. I think you should just cede the point. To be honest, I assumed your first post was a joke but evidently it wasn't?

 

It's not like these guys have sworn personal allegiance to Terry Ryan and are seeking to avenge his ouster. They're not the French Resistance that needs to be rooted out. They probably met TR a handful of times and are happy with anyone who helps them develop. Seth showed pretty conclusively that many good TR pitchers have been kept. You're arguing causation when you don't even have correlation???

[Tomj14]

Just another example of hoarding prospects way too long, 90% of minor league relief pitchers won't turn into decent major league pitchers. So if you have minor league relief pitchers that other teams value, trade them, and do it right away.

How many minor league relief pitchers do you need on your 40 man? the correct answer is VERY FEW!

[ThejacKmp]

Also, let's stop making JT Chargois out to be some indictment of the front office. He had a nice first week of the season and a narrative set in that is not based on fact.

 

1.) His ERA is up to 4.40, his FIP is 4.61 so he's not getting unlucky, and his WHUP is 1.535. He's striking out a lot of guys but walking a lot of guys too.

 

2.) He's not some elite late-inning guy. The only two times he's pitched in the 8th since April 23rd were in away games the Dodgers were losing - in essence he's a guy trusted not to get things blown wide-open but not a top bullpen arm. He's a middle reliever akin to Taylor Rogers or Hildenberger. I'd take either one of those guys over him.

 

The more evidence we get, the less likely it is that we should consider Chargois some great loss. With the lack of options, he's certainly less valuable than guys like May, Buesnitz, Curtiss etc. who the Twins have in the minors.

 

This seems like much ado about nothing.

[ThejacKmp]

 

Just another example of hoarding prospects way too long, 90% of minor league relief pitchers won't turn into decent major league pitchers. So if you have minor league relief pitchers that other teams value, trade them, and do it right away.

How many minor league relief pitchers do you need on your 40 man? the correct answer is VERY FEW!

 

Strongly disagree with everything you said here.

 

1.) Way more than 90% of all minor league players won't turn into decent major league players, there's no reason to pick on relievers. They're not unique. If anything, they're more likely to make the majors because they don't need to have a full arsenal like a starter and they can get by being a situational lefty or an innings eating middle reliever.

 

2.) There's no reason to berate the front office for holding onto him too long. You let guys have time to develop because sometimes they turn it around. I don't recall Mason ever blocking anyone more deserving. He just didn't pan out. The Twins held onto Taylor Rogers for years and years when it was clear he was an iffy reliever and low-end starter. That ended up working out. You rarely regret the guy you hold onto a bit too long, you will regret if you let go too early.

 

3.) There is no reason to think that Mason ever had huge trade value. Minor league relievers are almost never headliners of major trades. If you traded Mason, you'd likely be trading him for some other developmental prospect or he'd be the third piece of a larger trade of an actual bona fide prospect.

 

4.) To be honest, if you don't have starting pitcher or position player prospects who demand a 40-man spot, a relief pitcher is likely the best possible guy to have on the 40 man. It allows you to shuffle guys to and from the majors when you have a couple of extra-inning games in a row (e.g. if the Twins went 12 again yesterday, you'd likely see someone move to the minors so a fresh arm could come up for Seattle today). Position players and starters are only there for DL stints and doubleheaders, which are significantly more rare than an overtaxed bullpen.

 

5.) When you need to make a 40 man move, it's often a lot easier to slip a low-end reliever through the waiver wire than a backup catcher/utility infielder/starting pitcher.

 

 

[Mike Sixel]

You might want to rethink this position given their are other teams have nearly twice our revenue. The only way to post a playoff worthy record is to achieving a lower cost:win ration. Cost/win is an absolutely critical metric. Fans of teams in salary cap leagues are quite aware of this reality and the discussion around player value is very different.

Value for a mediocre RP isn't relevant to the budget. Look at what they paid for Duke this year. And, this team is not near any cap, other than relative to their revenue. We are talking about mediocre relief pitchers, aren't we in this thread? Does it really matter if they use a guy for the minimum, or three million?

[Tomj14]

 

Strongly disagree with everything you said here.

For strongly disagreeing, it seems to did a good job of proving my points.

[ThejacKmp]

 

For strongly disagreeing, it seems to did a good job of proving my points.

 

How so?

 

You indicated that Mason was an example of front offices holding onto minor league relief prospects too long and that they should trade them once they had value and not keep them on the 40 man where they just take up space.

 

I countered with (1) relievers are not unique in not working out so that's an erroneous point (2) there were no negative effects of holding onto Mason and I can point to times patience has paid off (3) Minor League relievers like Mason have little trade value so trying to trade them is another erroneous idea (4) relievers are often the most useful and used members of the non-25-man-roster 40 man and (5) they also provide flexibility when injuries pop up.

 

What part of that was me proving your point?

 

I don't know what it is about this season but it feels like the boards are rife with people ripping into the FO for the most minor of offenses. Maybe the honeymoon is over for Flavine and part of being a modern fan is complaining about how you'd do things better than the professionals? Maybe we had Great Expectations for the first time so people get ornery when we aren't the best team? It's made the boards less fun, every loss feels like an excuse for people to pile on with insane complaining that has little place in reality.

[Rosterman]

 can't hold onto players too long anymore. After six years they can walk...to another team if they choose. Many, if on the cusp, choose to stay...but by that time, they either have had a cup of coffee or are doomed to fighting for jobs to possibly make it. Injuries and such slow down the development of a pitcher (look at Burdi and Thorpe as examples).

 

We forget that the Twins drafted A LOT of relief pitchers in a short period of time. Sadly, these high picks didn't translate into major league success. So something has to be said about spending money in high rounds on relief arms.

 

In baseball, so few get careers of any length. Pitchers battle for that one glorious moment. Look at the number of names that came thru Minnesota alone in the past few seasons, most never to get more than a cup of coffee, if even that, with another team. You can come up, be brilliant in an appearance or two, suffer some bad pitches, and then someone else passes you by in the minor league pecking order. Yes, you hope you have enough when the time comes, but you can also find relief pitchers (without drafttng) to fill needs. 

 

Even when you get a big gun on the roster (see Joe Nathan) you forget that he was a starter (and a position player) turned relief, and we got him because he didn't have a job in the Giants system, but the Twins had the chance to give him an opportunity to shine...which he did...rather than become Boof Bonser.

 

Oliveros, Darnell, Tonkin, Light, Albers, Achter, Thielbar, O'Rourke, Achter, Waldrop, Manship, Enns, Heston, Melville, Turley, Graham, Wimmers, Wheeler, Tepsch, Rosario, Busenitz, Boshers, Slegers...the lit goes on and on.

 

Still remember when everyone was in an uproar when we traded Eddie Morlan to Tampa Bay (instead of the declining Rincon). But what happened there? 

 

Yes, the verdict on Chargois is still out. Do we wish we had him right now? Are we satisfied that we do have Curtiss and Moya still in the wings> Are there other one-year winners that will come forth (Jake Reed).

 

The evils of drafting high is that you MIGHT suddenly have too many guys advance to certain levels at the same time, coupled with the fact that you do pick up players from other organizations, and there is precious roster space out there and you evaluate every player on what they can contribute today and what they might contribute tomorrow. Melotakis was low on the lefty pecking order, they needed a roster spot, and voila! Plus the fact that he would need to come back to the roster at some point, and if then dropped, they would lose him anyways.

 

It must be fascinating to actually work in the front office of a baseball team, rather than sit in my armchair recliner and speculate on what should've been done compared to what needs to be done.

 

 

[Tomj14]

 

How so?

 

You indicated that Mason was an example of front offices holding onto minor league relief prospects too long and that they should trade them once they had value and not keep them on the 40 man where they just take up space.

 

 

What part of that was me proving your point?

 

I don't know what it is about this season but it feels like the boards are rife with people ripping into the FO for the most minor of offenses.

First I never ripped on the current FO, Mason was a top prospect (top 20) before they got here.

Obviously a relief pitcher will never be the center of a trade, I was pointing out that he is just another relief prospect that has failed to live up to expectations and wasn't added in a trade with other prospects to improve the major league club, and is no longer with the team.

IMO at any given time there are only 1 or 2 prospects that should be considered untouchable to make the major league club better, because most are going to flame out and the major league club won't see any benefits of it.

[Major League Ready]

 

Value for a mediocre RP isn't relevant to the budget. Look at what they paid for Duke this year. And, this team is not near any cap, other than relative to their revenue. We are talking about mediocre relief pitchers, aren't we in this thread? Does it really matter if they use a guy for the minimum, or three million?

 

The point you made was not restricted to RPs.  You made it very clear you did not think value mattered.  Now you are reshaping your statement. 

 

BTW ... I would love to be in the board room when you tell leadership a couple million does not matter. Only in the world of sports fans do they speak so cavalier of a couple million not mattering.  The amount you speak of with so little regard is 20 or 20 or 40 FTEs in the real world.  

[ashbury]

I mean, there are three guys they chose to not add to the 40-man roster (or take off of it), but they chose to add Hildenberger and Busenitz and Curtiss (and Gonsalves, Thorpe)... all of which were drafted by Deron Johnson. 

Minor point-of-information but unless Deron was moonlighting for the Angels, Busenitz wasn't his guy on draft day.

[old nurse]

 

First I never ripped on the current FO, Mason was a top prospect (top 20) before they got here.

Melotakis was a top 20 prospect when he was a starting pitcher in low A. Travis Harrison, Oswaldo Arcia and Alex Meyer were ahead of him and they did not pan out for one reason or another. Top 20 does not mean much.

[old nurse]

 

 

 can't hold onto players too long anymore. After six years they can walk...to another team if they choose. Many, if on the cusp, choose to stay...but by that time, they either have had a cup of coffee or are doomed to fighting for jobs to possibly make it. Injuries and such slow down the development of a pitcher (look at Burdi and Thorpe as examples).

 

We forget that the Twins drafted A LOT of relief pitchers in a short period of time. Sadly, these high picks didn't translate into major league success. So something has to be said about spending money in high rounds on relief arms.

 

In baseball, so few get careers of any length. Pitchers battle for that one glorious moment. Look at the number of names that came thru Minnesota alone in the past few seasons, most never to get more than a cup of coffee, if even that, with another team. You can come up, be brilliant in an appearance or two, suffer some bad pitches, and then someone else passes you by in the minor league pecking order. Yes, you hope you have enough when the time comes, but you can also find relief pitchers (without drafttng) to fill needs. 

 

Even when you get a big gun on the roster (see Joe Nathan) you forget that he was a starter (and a position player) turned relief, and we got him because he didn't have a job in the Giants system, but the Twins had the chance to give him an opportunity to shine...which he did...rather than become Boof Bonser.

 

Oliveros, Darnell, Tonkin, Light, Albers, Achter, Thielbar, O'Rourke, Achter, Waldrop, Manship, Enns, Heston, Melville, Turley, Graham, Wimmers, Wheeler, Tepsch, Rosario, Busenitz, Boshers, Slegers...the lit goes on and on.

 

Still remember when everyone was in an uproar when we traded Eddie Morlan to Tampa Bay (instead of the declining Rincon). But what happened there? 

 

Yes, the verdict on Chargois is still out. Do we wish we had him right now? Are we satisfied that we do have Curtiss and Moya still in the wings> Are there other one-year winners that will come forth (Jake Reed).

 

The evils of drafting high is that you MIGHT suddenly have too many guys advance to certain levels at the same time, coupled with the fact that you do pick up players from other organizations, and there is precious roster space out there and you evaluate every player on what they can contribute today and what they might contribute tomorrow. Melotakis was low on the lefty pecking order, they needed a roster spot, and voila! Plus the fact that he would need to come back to the roster at some point, and if then dropped, they would lose him anyways.

 

It must be fascinating to actually work in the front office of a baseball team, rather than sit in my armchair recliner and speculate on what should've been done compared to what needs to be done.

Yeah, that Eddie Morlan trade was one awful trade.  That was a trade Smith should not have made.  Boy did he get fleeced losing him, and the other two guys. They should have just traded the managers

[Seth Stohs]

 

Minor point-of-information but unless Deron was moonlighting for the Angels, Busenitz wasn't his guy on draft day.

 

Fair enough... I know that he came over with Rob Antony in charge. 

[howieramone2]

Last I heard approximately 80% were able to come back from TJ. Melotakis IMHO is an example of one who couldn't.

[Rosterman]

Looks like Mason has been picked by the Colorado Rockies and assigned to Albuquerque.

 

[Oldgoat_MN]

 

Looks like Mason has been picked by the Colorado Rockies and assigned to Albuquerque.

Well good for him.

And good luck to him as well.