I'm done with Fernando Rodney

[Vanimal46]

It might not, but if he's our 4th or 5th option it won't be in crushing situations. Obviously at some point you cut bait. I'd probably try him in another role first.

He's blown leads in 4 of 8 appearances. Doesn't matter if it's the 9th inning or 6th. He's blown leads the team has when he enters the game.

[Vanimal46]

I'm pretty sure I compared Rodney to Ron Davis before the season started and some of the other posters here were trying to school me on why I was wrong. Glad someone they all probably think highly of has numbers to back it up.

It's alright. I called him a scrap heap signing and got the same grief.

[jud6312]

 

It's alright. I called him a scrap heap signing and got the same grief.

Probably the same thread. Or one of them.

[Jham]

How is that a misuse of stats? We'll disagree about about BB/9 and K/9 being garbage. I'm not arguing about the validity of a SSS if that's what you're getting at with numbers being skewed. The point I'm making is that we can't assume underperformance normalizes but overperformance doesn't.

 

BABIP isn't completely out of the control of a pitcher. That 3 run shot was a rocket. Hard hit balls will inflate BABIP (ask Phil Hughes.) That doesn't mean I think it's staying north of even .310 but I certainly don't think we can simply brush off Rodney's current BABIP as just poor defense or bad luck. I'm also not convinced that Rodney, at 41, has suddenly discovered control and is going to keep his BB rate down.

 

I'm not sure what a low BB rate w/ high BABIP vs. a higher BB rate w/ normalized BABIP looks like in terms of runners on a per inning basis.

 

TL;DR: Rodney allows too many runners to reach.

I was just pointing out that babip was created specifically to exclude stats like walks to measure, in some eyes, luck. Regression tends to occur with larger samples even for performance. But strictly speaking, a pitcher can control walks and not babip. That's my only issue and why I said "misuse". Doesn't mean I even disagree on whether he can keep his walks down. Just that walks are not a luck stat which has to regress the way a .450 babip with a major league defense must.

[Old Twins Cap]

Well Rodney isn't going to lead you to the playoffs or into the World Series.

 

But, that's not why he was signed.

 

Ergo, Twins are not going anywhere this year.

 

At the end of the day, if I follow this team all year, and by some stretch of imagination they make the playoffs, I really can't handle any more games against the Yankees.

 

I know how that ends.

[KirbyDome89]

 

I was just pointing out that babip was created specifically to exclude stats like walks to measure, in some eyes, luck. Regression tends to occur with larger samples even for performance. But strictly speaking, a pitcher can control walks and not babip. That's my only issue and why I said "misuse". Doesn't mean I even disagree on whether he can keep his walks down. Just that walks are not a luck stat which has to regress the way a .450 babip with a major league defense must.

No, you're right, I wasn't trying to say that BABIP is entirely in Rodney's control. For the most part it isn't, i.e. the luck and defense aspects are out of a pitcher's control. I was just pointing out that there is an aspect of pitcher performance, which is controllable, and that's part of the calculation as well.

 

Agreed, BABIP will certainly move downward, and BBs don't have to jump up, although I wouldn't bet on that. 

[Pius Jefferson]

When one of the first things you hear is the 9th inning is always an adventure the radar should go up.

[twinssporto]

 

To those young enough to not remember or get to see the '84 Ron Davis, that was a true dumpster fire...  Rodney is quickly catching Davis. 

We used to call it the Ron Davis neck snap!  He'd throw one across the plate and it was hit so hard over the fence Ron would whip his head around and watch it fly away.  

 

The Ron Davis neck snap...Now its the Rodney neck snap.  Thought I'd never experience that again.

 

 

[laloesch]

 

He's blown leads in 4 of 8 appearances. Doesn't matter if it's the 9th inning or 6th. He's blown leads the team has when he enters the game.

 

And guess what no matter how much we all complain they'll keep trotting him out there the ENTIRE SEASON.....oorah!

[twinsnorth49]

If only there was a way to see this coming....

[OTPS300]

Could somebody help me out. Lots of stats etc. here. I would like to hear from a poster who actually watched the 9th inning and tell me how Rodney was the reason the team lost. Two men on base with an error and not a ball hit more than 60 feet. The pitch Sanchez hit was inside and not in the strike zone at 96 mph, Rodney should thrown it somewhere else. Shame on him. 

 

[Thrylos]

 

Could somebody help me out. Lots of stats etc. here. I would like to hear from a poster who actually watched the 9th inning and tell me how Rodney was the reason the team lost. Two men on base with an error and not a ball hit more than 60 feet. The pitch Sanchez hit was inside and not in the strike zone at 96 mph, Rodney should thrown it somewhere else. Shame on him. 

 

A. Stanton singled. He did not reach on errors

B. The home run pitch was a strike:

C. Lights out closers strike hitters out instead of putting the ball into play.

D. Rodney threw the pitches that lost the game.

[OTPS300]

 

A. Stanton singled. He did not reach on errors

B. The home run pitch was a strike:

C. Lights out closers strike hitters out instead of putting the ball into play.

D. Rodney threw the pitches that lost the game.

Stanton singled on an infield hit, so that was a bad pitch? What about the error before that AB?

Did you watch the game? Replays showed it was not in the strike zone.

So if a pitcher throws pitches that end up in a lost game and the defense causes the loss it is the pitchers fault? 

Sorry pal, if you are right I will apologize. 

By the way did you watch the game or the 9th inning?

 

[KirbyDome89]

 

So if a pitcher throws pitches that end up in a lost game and the defense causes the loss it is the pitchers fault? 

The defense didn't give up the hit that followed the error, and they didn't allow the homer that followed the hit. Regardless of where the pitch was, Sanchez hit out. That's on Rodney. 

[jun]

Rays and Yankees both won eight straight games. Without Rodney Diamondbacks has been doing great.

[h2oface]

 

Could somebody help me out. Lots of stats etc. here. I would like to hear from a poster who actually watched the 9th inning and tell me how Rodney was the reason the team lost. Two men on base with an error and not a ball hit more than 60 feet. The pitch Sanchez hit was inside and not in the strike zone at 96 mph, Rodney should thrown it somewhere else. Shame on him. 

 

Rodney entered the game with a 2 run lead. He needed 3 outs. Average against him, for the year, was .345 when he entered, and when the game ended, .375. Rodney pitching makes the whole of the opponents he has faced bat a collective .375! Not just a couple of players.... all of them! Is that the kind of pitcher you want coming in for your team in the most crucial times? The particular pitch in question, which in the replay shows was just inside, was also up in the zone, thigh high in the sweet spot (ask Dozier about getting a pitch like that to pull) and he missed Garver's target, which is clearly held in the very bottom inside corner of the zone. The pitch was at about 96 mph, but had no movement, ala Jesse Crain in his troubled time. 

 

Absolutely, Rodney needed to not throw it there. He even said so in the post game. And it would help if his fastball was thrown with command, and where the catcher wants it. A fastball with no movement in the mid nineties is just what MLB hitters like to square up on. This was made to order to pull down the left field line.

 

Shame on him, is right. Eight pitches, and 3 runs later and he lost the gem that Gibson pitched. Go ahead and pretend he got the out from Gregorious, and there was no throwing error. It would have still been a blown save with a 2 run lead handed to him, and he would still need 2 outs to get out of the inning without a loss, too. Dink hits count. Home runs count. And it is scored a blown save and a loss, and that loss counts, and was extremely painful and disheartening.

 

And what happened on the next outing, Saturday, when he came in again with the same 3-1 score? Walked the first batter on 4 pitches, and the third batter on 5, and brought the winning run to the plate with one out. Dozier saved the horror from repeating making a great catch on another "weak contact" floater. 

 

What is the new catch phrase? "Times up"?

Time is up for Rodney.

[old nurse]

 

C. Lights out closers strike hitters out instead of putting the ball into play.

 

Oh to have a lights out closer.  One small little reality is no reliever strikes anyone out.  Only 9 have managed to over the last 5 years y strike out more than a third of the batters they face. Defense is the reliever's friend

[NDTimIrish]

Haven't you guys ever heard of a small sample size? We're like 6% into the season. Rodney's stuff looks just as good as ever and that closer mentality doesn't exactly grow on trees or come cheap. Add in a proven winner and a good clubhouse guy and Rodney is someone we're lucky to have if we plan on making any kind of playoff run. As Drew Brees once said R-E-L-A-X.

 

Good win yesterday.

[Mr. Brooks]

Haven't you guys ever heard of a small sample size? We're like 6% into the season. Rodney's stuff looks just as good as ever and that closer mentality doesn't exactly grow on trees or come cheap. Add in a proven winner and a good clubhouse guy and Rodney is someone we're lucky to have if we plan on making any kind of playoff run. As Drew Brees once said R-E-L-A-X.

 

Good win yesterday.

We are 14% of the way through the season (unless they changed to a 350 game schedule when I wasn't looking!). And, Aaron Rodgers said that, not Brees.

[USAFChief]

The defense didn't give up the hit that followed the error, and they didn't allow the homer that followed the hit. Regardless of where the pitch was, Sanchez hit out. That's on Rodney.

 

The Sanchez HR is on Rodney, although it wasn’t a bad pitch.

 

The hit was a swinging bunt, so in effect Rodney made too good a pitch. If he gave up harder contact it’s a DP ball.

 

I’m not that worried about Rodney. The results have been ugly, but you can’t always judge by that.

[KirbyDome89]

 

The Sanchez HR is on Rodney, although it wasn’t a bad pitch.

The hit was a swinging bunt, so in effect Rodney made too good a pitch. If he gave up harder contact it’s a DP ball.

I’m not that worried about Rodney. The results have been ugly, but you can’t always judge by that.

I'm not saying it wasn't a cheap hit, but IMO a hit is a hit. We never go back and assign pitchers runs that should have scored because of hard contact or great defensive plays so I'm not really inclined to cut them a break on IF hits either. Rodney coughed up a three run lead without recording a single out. It doesn't sound like you're absolving him of the outing but a few are, and it's baffling. 

 

I'll fully admit that I hate watching him pitch at this point, and I'm sure that contributes to my lack of confidence but I'm so sick of the automatic 1-2 runners per inning. I was honestly surprised he didn't blow yesterday's game after the two BBs. What some call the "Rodney experience," I call struggling to get through innings. Kudos to you for having zen like patience with him, I just can't stand watching him "close," anymore. 

[Riverbrian]

 

I'm not saying it wasn't a cheap hit, but IMO a hit is a hit. We never go back and assign pitchers runs that should have scored because of hard contact or great defensive plays so I'm not really inclined to cut them a break on IF hits either. Rodney coughed up a three run lead without recording a single out. It doesn't sound like you're absolving him of the outing but a few are, and it's baffling. 

 

I'll fully admit that I hate watching him pitch at this point, and I'm sure that contributes to my lack of confidence but I'm so sick of the automatic 1-2 runners per inning. I was honestly surprised he didn't blow yesterday's game after the two BBs. What some call the "Rodney experience," I call struggling to get through innings. Kudos to you for having zen like patience with him, I just can't stand watching him "close," anymore. 

 

He hasn't been the worst thing coming out of our bullpen so patience with Rodney is alright in my opinion. 

 

However... the problem is the role that he was brought in for and subsequently assigned to and seemingly married to. He isn't a bullpen improvement at the very top of the pen. 

 

Once you move Rodney out of the closer spot and slide him down deeper in the pen... he could actually be a bullpen improvement over what we have been getting from Moya, Kinley, Duffey, Hildenberger and Rogers.  

 

Right now... the problem is that we gave him an elevator ride to the penthouse and said... "Have at it". That's where he struggles to compare to his peers. 

 

 

[KirbyDome89]

 

He hasn't been the worst thing coming out of our bullpen so patience with Rodney is alright in my opinion. 

 

However... the problem is the role that he was brought in for and subsequently assigned to and seemingly married to. He isn't a bullpen improvement at the very top of the pen. 

 

Once you move Rodney out of the closer spot and slide him down deeper in the pen... he could actually be a bullpen improvement over what we have been getting from Moya, Kinley, Duffey, Hildenberger and Rogers.  

 

Right now... the problem is that we gave him an elevator ride to the penthouse and said... "Have at it". That's where he struggles to compare to his peers. 

I'm not arguing that he's the worst pitcher they have in the pen or that it's out of the question to show patience. IMO there's a difference between being patient and digging for ways to excuse his poor performance though.

 

I agree, if he wasn't "closing," he'd be a little more tolerable. You're right, handing him the 9th and refusing to move away from him while he's struggling is definitely part of the problem, but I think Rodney himself is big part as well. Hildenberger ect. have been much worse, but if that's the reference point we're using then who isn't going to look good?  

[Riverbrian]

 

I'm not arguing that he's the worst pitcher they have in the pen or that it's out of the question to show patience. IMO there's a difference between being patient and digging for ways to excuse his poor performance though.

 

I agree, if he wasn't "closing," he'd be a little more tolerable. You're right, handing him the 9th and refusing to move away from him while he's struggling is definitely part of the problem, but I think Rodney himself is big part as well. Hildenberger ect. have been much worse, but if that's the reference point we're using then who isn't going to look good?  

 

Full Disclosure: I was OK with the Rodney signing because I was screaming and crying all off-season for Bullpen Improvement. Granted... when I was screaming and crying all off-season for Bullpen improvement... I wanted bigger... more wicked... more expensive options than what we got... Reed was the only guy on my list that we got. However... I ended up being OK with Rodney and Duke because they did deepen our pen. 

 

When it comes to bullpen building... the way I would want it approached is this way. 

 

I don't care if we have a big armed monster who strikes out two batters an inning in the closer role. I want those guys available to come in when we need the strikeout. You got a starter who left a mess and the game is still in reach... 3rd... 8th... whenever... that's when I want our strikeout guys coming in. 

 

The closer usually starts the 9th clean. No outs... nobody on base.What I want in the closer role is a guy with low WHIP. He doesn't walk batters and is hard to square up.  If the closer gets himself in trouble... then I'd like a Manager who is willing to go to one of the big armed monsters to bail him out if necessary with a strikeout. I don't want the manager to put the closer in and say we are going to live or die with this guy come hell or high water. 

 

Fernando Rodney gives up way too much foot traffic to be the guy I would place in the closer role. However... last year he did do a decent job with a 1.19 WHIP but the rest of his career before that... he was a pretty high WHIP dude. 

 

On the other hand... Rodney has always been able to get the K. 

 

My opinion that is about to be torn apart by everybody else is: Rodney is mis-cast. Rodney shouldn't be the closer... he should be the guy who cleans up other people's mess since he has so many years of practice cleaning up his own. Bring him in when you need a K in the 5th inning or 7th inning. 

 

If I was Molitor... I'd move Reed into the closer role. He has the lowest career WHIP of the Bunch. 

 

Rodney has been striking out a batter per inning throughout his career, Duke has been over a strikeout per inning since 2014. 

 

Put Reed in the closer role to stay out of Jams... Use Rodney and Duke to get out of the jams.  

 

Closer: Reed

 

Andrew Miller Type Guy: (We don't have this guy... Reed would be the closest).  

 

Set Up: Pressly

 

Fireman vs RH: Rodney

 

Fireman vs LH: Duke

 

Standard Bullpen guy who can hopefully hang some zeroes: Taylor Rogers

 

LR All Hope is Gone Guy: Hughes

 

IMO... Twins still need either a closer or Andrew Miller type guy who can go multiple innings in close games. Whichever role you give to Reed... we will need the other. 

 

Edit: Watching Rogers pitch in the 4th inning today. We may not have that guy either. 

[KirbyDome89]

 

Full Disclosure: I was OK with the Rodney signing because I was screaming and crying all off-season for Bullpen Improvement. Granted... when I was screaming and crying all off-season for Bullpen improvement... I wanted bigger... more wicked... more expensive options than what we got... Reed was the only guy on my list that we got. However... I ended up being OK with Rodney and Duke because they did deepen our pen. 

 

When it comes to bullpen building... the way I would want it approached is this way. 

 

I don't care if we have a big armed monster who strikes out two batters an inning in the closer role. I want those guys available to come in when we need the strikeout. You got a starter who left a mess and the game is still in reach... 3rd... 8th... whenever... that's when I want our strikeout guys coming in. 

 

The closer usually starts the 9th clean. No outs... nobody on base.What I want in the closer role is a guy with low WHIP. He doesn't walk batters and is hard to square up.  If the closer gets himself in trouble... then I'd like a Manager who is willing to go to one of the big armed monsters to bail him out if necessary with a strikeout. I don't want the manager to put the closer in and say we are going to live or die with this guy come hell or high water. 

 

Fernando Rodney gives up way too much foot traffic to be the guy I would place in the closer role. However... last year he did do a decent job with a 1.19 WHIP but the rest of his career before that... he was a pretty high WHIP dude. 

 

On the other hand... Rodney has always been able to get the K. 

 

My opinion that is about to be torn apart by everybody else is: Rodney is mis-cast. Rodney shouldn't be the closer... he should be the guy who cleans up other people's mess since he has so many years of practice cleaning up his own. Bring him in when you need a K in the 5th inning or 7th inning. 

 

If I was Molitor... I'd move Reed into the closer role. He has the lowest career WHIP of the Bunch. 

 

Rodney has been striking out a batter per inning throughout his career, Duke has been over a strikeout per inning since 2014. 

 

Put Reed in the closer role to stay out of Jams... Use Rodney and Duke to get out of the jams.  

 

Closer: Reed

 

Andrew Miller Type Guy: (We don't have this guy... Reed would be the closest).  

 

Set Up: Pressly

 

Fireman vs RH: Rodney

 

Fireman vs LH: Duke

 

Standard Bullpen guy who can hopefully hang some zeroes: Taylor Rogers

 

LR All Hope is Gone Guy: Hughes

 

IMO... Twins still need either a closer or Andrew Miller type guy who can go multiple innings in close games. Whichever role you give to Reed... we will need the other. 

 

Edit: Watching Rogers pitch in the 4th inning today. We may not have that guy either. 

Agreed 100% on that first paragraph. 

 

I'd love to see the best pitcher(s) used in the most important situations so I have no issue with fluid bullpen roles.

 

Absolutely agree Rodney allows way too many runners to reach. At some point that catches up to you, and so far this year that has too often been the case. That's the big issue I see with the role you proposed for him. So far he's been great at creating messes. I just have 0 faith in him being able to come into a game with runners on and not add to the problem.

 

Jay was supposed to be that electric arm. Here's to hoping I guess. 

[SwainZag]

 

Stanton singled on an infield hit, so that was a bad pitch? What about the error before that AB?

Did you watch the game? Replays showed it was not in the strike zone.

So if a pitcher throws pitches that end up in a lost game and the defense causes the loss it is the pitchers fault? 

Sorry pal, if you are right I will apologize. 

By the way did you watch the game or the 9th inning?

 

Someone on Reddit did a breakdown of that inning, take a look:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/8fbwb9/oc_anatomy_of_a_blown_save_fernando_rodney/

 

[spanman2]

 

I'd check out NASA's live webcam today and you'll find Gary Sanchez' walk off HR orbiting our atmosphere.

IALTO

[jkcarew]

Ah....the good 'ole days!....back when I complained about Rodney.

 

I miss the good 'ole days.

[Tomj14]

 

Shocking. A 41 year old doesn't have it anymore to be a closer.

Back in the day if you seen a hot girl and you wanted to point her out to your friends, we would just say Ron Davis.

And you would jerk your head around just like Davis did after serving up another homer.

[cmoss84]

I might be in the minority here, but I thought the pitch Sanchez hit out was a good one. 96 and just inside. Sanchez is good. And has been hitting a lot of bombs lately. 

 

I'm not saying I am confident in Rodney, but I am not saying I'm ready to give up on him just yet. Think it's going to come down to him using his change-up a bit more and better command on it and his fastball.