Race and Rosario

[USAFChief]

Well, a number of things. First, at least twice in this thread I've said one should avoid labeling anyone a racist in this conversation and we should talk about the conversation as racist, not those conversing. (Unless they make it explicit themselves of course) So most of your post is mischaracterizing. Which is surprising since part of what you quoted even says that.

 

Secondly - this paragraph is really faulty logic. I'll try and show it with a simple example. It is a matter of fact that black men are incarcerated, for the same crimes, at a much harsher rate. So, under your logic, if I were to say "the general trend of incarceration is racist" I am therefore accusing everyone in the incarceration process - police, lawyers, judges - as racists. And you could think of far less controversial examples. "The Twins' offense is not very good this year" does not equate to "every hitter on the Twins is not very good".

 

I don't know if the racist slant towards Sano is due to explicit or implicit biases. It is probably a wide range from none, to implicit and unknown, to implicit and somewhat aware, to explicitly aware depending upon the individual. I won't presume to know what's in someone's heart. Nor will I do so.

 

But I will assert the conversation itself has a racist slant when we revere Kent Hrbek but concoct ways to bash Sano. When we say we can just "look" at a guy and know what's in his heart. How we can call him lazy even though he came back from Tommy John ahead of schedule, played through the death of a child, and has a miraculous life story. How we can call him "fat" and "obese" and "300 pounds" before a picture of him even surfaces and then quickly slink into a corner when the pictures prove that narrative false.

 

I don't know what's in your heart Chief, I've known you long enough to think you probably aren't a racist. But if you are actively refusing to see how some of the tone towards Miguel is unfair and that it might be implicitly or explicitly racially motivated....well, I'd encourage you to look again. It doesn't make you racist to criticize him, but it might be possible others who are do not have such noble patterns in their thought as you.

And we’re back to “racism, but not you, Chief. Not you, other guy. Not anyone specific, in fact.”

 

Sorry Lev, but if there racism, point it out to me. There might be, heck I don’t know. But neither do you. And labeling criticism as “racist” is in fact, racist when you’re basing those accusations on nothing but your assumption that I’m not Hispanic.

 

Even “Sano is lazy,” which I don’t think anyone has said, isnt inherently racist, unless it’s based on stereotypes about Hispanics. It’s a comment about a specific person.

 

If we truly want to have a conversation, stereotyping me isn’t any better than stereotyping Sano. And that, my friend, is what you’re doing.

[TheLeviathan]

Sorry Lev, but if there racism, point it to me.

Perhaps a good first step would be understanding that this isn't how biases/racism works. It can be easy to point out in this simplistic way, but rarely so.

 

I have stereotyped no person. I will keep talking about the conversations while you keep insisting on taking it personally. I have directed it personally at no one.

 

Also, insinuating that a white guy also gets unfair criticism meansthis cant be racist is really faulty logic too.

[Craig Arko]

If we truly want to have a conversation, stereotyping me isn’t any better than stereotyping Sano. And that, my friend, is what you’re doing.

It looks to me like you’re trying very hard to stereotype yourself. I don’t understand why. Do you feel you’ve been discriminated against?

[USAFChief]

It looks to me like you’re trying very hard to stereotype yourself. I don’t understand why. Do you feel you’ve been discriminated against?

I feel like insinuations of racism, over mild criticism of a baseball player, insult those who criticized, serve to give the accuser a warm fuzzy about how enlightened he is, and diffuse the energy needed to combat actual instances of racist behavior.

 

Again...point me to the racist statements about Sano, or Rosario.

 

You can’t. At least not to anything dissimilar to Mauer, or Nick Punto, or pretty much any player.

 

I don’t think Mauer has done every thing he can to be a more dangerous hitter. I don’t think Sano has either.

 

Neither of those opinions are racist.

 

Stop insinuating they are.

[TheLeviathan]

There are reams of evidence that our criminal justice system over-penalizes black men.  Can I point to any one sentencing trial and say "See, the judge said right there that he gave the convicted extra years because he was black"  Maybe.  But the handful of instances in which I can provide clear evidence of racism are wildly outnumbered by the examples that actually populate the data.  The examples that are not evidently clear and would seem otherwise banal.  But the data taken as a whole allows us to see the racial elements come into play.  Those unclear/banal examples are not evidently racist until we see the larger trends.

 

Much is the same here.  Stomping your foot and demanding specifics examples of racism or else it doesn't exist is missing the point completely.  

 

I doubt many judges are racist.  I bet they would actively resent the notion they over-sentence black men.  And yet the trend is statistically evident and valid despite whatever objections or personal feelings they have.  That is part of what actual racism is: you don't have to wear a white hood and burn crosses.  Sometimes you can just be part of a bad trend and refuse the self-awareness to get out of it or call out those that agree with you, but for indefensible reasons.  Or just refuse to acknowledge the possibility that maybe just maybe, not everyone who shares your criticism shares the same integrity in their criticism.

[Craig Arko]

I feel like insinuations of racism, over mild criticism of a baseball player, insult those who criticized, serve to give the accuser a warm fuzzy about how enlightened he is, and diffuse the energy needed to combat actual instances of racist behavior.

Again...point me to the racist statements about Sano, or Rosario.

You can’t. At least not to anything dissimilar to Mauer, or Nick Punto, or pretty much any player.

I don’t think Mauer has done every thing he can to be a more dangerous hitter. I don’t think Sano has either.

Neither of those opinions are racist.

Stop insinuating they are.

Well again, as I said near the top of the thread, I didn’t see racism. I saw white privilege. I stand by that observation.

 

“I cannot salute the flag; I know that I am a black man in a white world. In 1972, in 1947, at my birth in 1919, I know that I never had it made.” - Jackie Robinson

[Ultima Ratio]

Some people just love to pick at scabs. Some people are obsessed with race. If you feel guilty about your skin pigmentation, ask for personal forgiveness if you must -- but leave the rest of us out of it.

[Craig Arko]

Some people just love to pick at scabs. Some people are obsessed with race. If you feel guilty about your skin pigmentation, ask for personal forgiveness if you must -- but leave the rest of us out of it.

You’ll find the Ignore prefs are managed under ‘My Settings.’

[Mr. Brooks]

I mean, the thread is clearly titled, and is in the Sports Bar.

If a person wants to be left out of the discussion, why would they intentionally walk into it?

Perhaps they really don't want the discussion to exist, with or without them?

[ashbury]

Moderator's note: we try to keep moderator activity to a minimum in Sports Bar threads, and this thread in particular has been given a lot of leeway so far, but please keep "meta-"discussions like whether or not this thread should exist out of it, and don't devolve into personal bickering. Note that the "topic" is not quite identical with the "thread". Thanks.

[Ultima Ratio]

Challenging white guilt/privilege orthodoxy is a third rail in these parts -- message received long ago.  This is just peak craziness and when many here try to speak for or assign guilt/blame/shame to others without evidence, you deserve to be challenged.  And in this particular topic of criticizing Sano or Rosario as having some deep, underlying racism -- that deserves to be rightly ridiculed.  Unless you are a mind reader, try giving people the benefit of the doubt.

 

 

Objecting to bigotry and assumptions about people you don't know due to some immutable and accidental characteristic  ≇ wanting to be left out of a conversation

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gunnarthor]

 

Again...point me to the racist statements about Sano, or Rosario.

You can’t. At least not to anything dissimilar to Mauer, or Nick Punto, or pretty much any player.
.

You're suggesting that any criticism of a player of color must be racist. That's not true. There are many valid ways to make legitimate criticisms of Sano or Rosario or Buxton. But it's not fine with the criticisms broach on ugly racial stereotypes rather than a legitimate reason. We've had a lot of posts that suggest Sano is lazy, lacks a work ethic and gets by on his natural talent. Rosario doesn't hustle was what started this thread. Last year, a poster literally said that he didn't think Buxton was smart enough to adjust to ML pitchers. Those sort of posts are worth calling out.

 

[PseudoSABR]

What kind of evidence of racism would satisfy those looking for it? No one is suggesting there's some overt hate letter, a smoking gun, a burning cross in Sano's front yard. In fact, many have gone out of their way to suggest that racism of this sort is latent, an implicit bias, systemic in operation, only detectable on the aggregate.   There's unfortunately no direct evidence to provide (at least here on Twins Daily), but we can look at general trends, and disparate treatment between like players.  Of course, we can't know with certainty whether the criticism levied at Sano or Rosario is tainted with an implicit bias, but it's not wrong (nor accusatory) to ask the question.

 

I'd also like to point out, that while I can understand that it's insulting to suggest that one's criticism of a player may be, in part, tinged with racism. It's equally insulting to suggest one's notion of social justice is predicated on the nice feelings of righteousness one alleged gets from using the word racist. Indeed, a conversation like this, among largely white-males, maybe enacts some of that privilege.

[USAFChief]

 

You're suggesting that any criticism of a player of color must be racist. That's not true. There are many valid ways to make legitimate criticisms of Sano or Rosario or Buxton. But it's not fine with the criticisms broach on ugly racial stereotypes rather than a legitimate reason. We've had a lot of posts that suggest Sano is lazy, lacks a work ethic and gets by on his natural talent. Rosario doesn't hustle was what started this thread. Last year, a poster literally said that he didn't think Buxton was smart enough to adjust to ML pitchers. Those sort of posts are worth calling out.

I'm suggesting exactly the opposite. The assumption should be that criticism of a player must NOT be racist.

 

I assume a poster asking why Eddie Rosario didn't run out a popup is because players should run out popups.

 

To assume otherwise is, well, it's racist. It makes assumptions about the poster that aren't in evidence based on the assumed race of the poster.

 

And BTW, it does a disservice to Eddie Rosario as well. You are, in fact, stating that Eddie Rosario shouldn't be subject to criticism because of his place of birth. Held to a lower standard. 

 

I call foul. 

 

 

[Squirrel]

 

I'm suggesting exactly the opposite. The assumption should be that criticism of a player must NOT be racist.

 

I assume a poster asking why Eddie Rosario didn't run out a popup is because players should run out popups.

 

To assume otherwise is, well, it's racist. It makes assumptions about the poster that aren't in evidence based on the assumed race of the poster.

 

And BTW, it does a disservice to Eddie Rosario as well. You are, in fact, stating that Eddie Rosario shouldn't be subject to criticism because of his place of birth. Held to a lower standard. 

 

I call foul. 

No one is saying that he can't be criticized. Because, yes, he should be running out a pop up ... and he knew it based on his personal reaction when he got back into the dugout. No one is saying Sano can't be either. As I've stated many times, let's keep it to baseball. But there are some posters who are attributing some of the errors and misplays and conditioning by making assumptions and accusations of personal character. And that is something that is done more often to non-white players ... not all the time, but quite a lot, and a disproportionate amount. And to make that observation and ask the question why that is, isn't accusing anyone specifically of anything other than wondering ... are we racist in some way? Do we have some kind of bias? This is why posts and questions of this nature are being moved to this forum and not allowed to continue in the other forum. Gunnar knows that I have come down on him in the past for making broad accusations, and I will come down on people who start bringing into the Sano conversation that he's lazy. No, we don't know for sure with anyone when criticisms become personal what is the underlying reasoning. It could be nothing, but it could be something. I mean, why say something like 'Buxton isn't smart enough?' Where does something like that come from? Again, while I can't point a finger at any one person and suggest they are racist for saying such a thing, I do wonder, why that comment about him? Do they know him personally and that is something they know? Because from my observations, I don't see that at all. So why make that statement, that seems to be of a racist nature? For me, as a moderator, I can't moderate assuming it's something other than disrespectful, and I will and have moderated that from both sides of this coin. But I do think the broader questions that stem from these things should be discussed and I think we should each be open to examining our own individual actions.

[TheLeviathan]

"That was yet another unacceptable mistake from Eddie Rosario"

 

vs.

 

"Eddie Rosario is too lazy to fix the mistakes he keeps making"

 

Those are very different kinds of criticisms, just to put it in plain terms.  

 

Not all criticisms have racial elements, nor do all posters and I would rather not go around accusing anyone of being racist.  Besides, one can have unnecessary racial (which is not the same as being racist) elements to one's thinking without being a racist.  We all do, in fact.  It doesn't make you an awful person or a racist.  Where you start to go wrong is in steadfastly refusing to even consider the possibility it exists.

[gunnarthor]

 

I'm suggesting exactly the opposite. The assumption should be that criticism of a player must NOT be racist.

 

I assume a poster asking why Eddie Rosario didn't run out a popup is because players should run out popups.

 

To assume otherwise is, well, it's racist. It makes assumptions about the poster that aren't in evidence based on the assumed race of the poster.

 

And BTW, it does a disservice to Eddie Rosario as well. You are, in fact, stating that Eddie Rosario shouldn't be subject to criticism because of his place of birth. Held to a lower standard. 

 

I call foul. 

You missed the point, perhaps re-read my post? The bolder first sentence was meant to suggest that you thought that I and others thought that any criticism of players of color was racist. 

 

The criticism Rosario was getting (as well as posts about Sano and Buxton that have been here at TD) walked a pretty fine line toward racist stereotypes of players of color. It's fair to point that out.

[Mike Sixel]

 

You missed the point, perhaps re-read my post? The bolder first sentence was meant to suggest that you thought that I and others thought that any criticism of players of color was racist. 

 

The criticism Rosario was getting (as well as posts about Sano and Buxton that have been here at TD) walked a pretty fine line toward racist stereotypes of players of color. It's fair to point that out.

 

I read it the same way chief did, fwiw.....

[gunnarthor]

 

I read it the same way chief did, fwiw.....

I'll have to work on my writing comprehension then.

[Mike Sixel]

Admittedly, I may have read it quickly....as I was taught, communication is a two way street, message sent is not always message received......and it's not always the listener's (or speaker's) fault....

[KirbyDome89]

 

What kind of evidence of racism would satisfy those looking for it? No one is suggesting there's some overt hate letter, a smoking gun, a burning cross in Sano's front yard. In fact, many have gone out of their way to suggest that racism of this sort is latent, an implicit bias, systemic in operation, only detectable on the aggregate.   There's unfortunately no direct evidence to provide (at least here on Twins Daily), but we can look at general trends, and disparate treatment between like players.  Of course, we can't know with certainty whether the criticism levied at Sano or Rosario is tainted with an implicit bias, but it's not wrong (nor accusatory) to ask the question.

 

I'd also like to point out, that while I can understand that it's insulting to suggest that one's criticism of a player may be, in part, tinged with racism. It's equally insulting to suggest one's notion of social justice is predicated on the nice feelings of righteousness one alleged gets from using the word racist. Indeed, a conversation like this, among largely white-males, maybe enacts some of that privilege.

I can agree with some of this up to a point. There's no doubt that we prefer those who tend to be most like us, whether it's appearance, attitude, intelligence, ect. It doesn't take a ton of introspection to realize we surround ourselves with individuals we perceive to be similar or compatible in some way. It's also undeniable that some of these preferences or bias will unfold along racial or ethnic lines. The issue is whether implicit biases are acted upon, the context of the situation, and whether or not actual prejudice is involved. 

 

Individuals harbor all sorts of biases and stereotypes. The terms carry negative connotations but in reality they're necessary for navigating the world in which we live. Stereotypes become harmful when they turn into prejudice & then discrimination and racial prejudice is a very specific type of bias. IMO the existence of stereotypes and bias is often conflated with racial prejudice, which can then be attributed to situations as one sees fit. It's this last part that becomes the point of contention. Implicit bias certainly exists but the relationship between an unconscious bias and biased behavior isn't as cut and dry as it's all too often made out to be. There is legitimate debate in academia about how data from the Implicit Association Test is interpreted. That's a burden the social sciences shoulder more than other disciplines. I can't speak completely for Chief but that seems to be a large part of the point he's making. 

 

I think we can both agree that while a vast majority of critical posts regarding players like Sano, Buxton, ect aren't racist, it's hard to look at a quote like "Buxton isn't smart enough to figure out MLB pitching," as anything other than racial prejudice. By that same token I believe most posters who advocate strongly for social issues aren't doing it simply to get their jollies. That said, I think we've all seen posts on TD that are nothing but virtue signaling. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

 

 

I was speaking more to the protest angle of things and the need to wake people up to issues by making them feel uncomfortable.  I recognize and acknowledge that necessity.  But there are still limits to that if you want to accomplish your goals.

 

On the discussion part, I think the key distinction Brock is that you have to go into these discussions knowing you'll make people feel uncomfortable.  It is unavoidable that you'll reach that point.  The subject matter itself, the mere mention of it (as you said), is enough to do that.  But what should make them feel uncomfortable is the reality/facts/concerns of which you're speaking about.  Going beyond that to make them feel uncomfortable purposefully with your tone, accusations, or insinuations is where you venture down the wrong path IMO.  

 

At that point you're not discussing, you're giving a sermon.  And I gave up on hearing those awhile ago for precisely that reason.

 

Spot on!

 

I don't think the issue is necessarily discomfort. That will block part of the conversation, as some would simply prefer not to have it, but that's not something many of us can control, and to be honest, it's a small subset of the population that walks away in that scenario.  Contentious conversations will naturally be uncomfortable. Every married person on this board can probably relate to some of those. Even on the race topic, that's the case too. But when it becomes a sermon, to use your words, that conversation ends before it started, as anyone interested in having it is no longer interested in having it with the person on the soapbox. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

We also now have an ongoing thread where people are suggesting that Sano doesn't have the work ethic to be better and is getting by on talent. Ugh.

 

I think you'd have a hard time finding anyone in this thread making that case against Sano. There will always be a few there, but I cannot help but wonder how much of that perception is being driven by a Strib hatchet job a couple years back vs. flat out racism as you imply. Perception is a nasty beast to defeat.

 

I think it's possible to think Sano is lazy and not be a racist. I would also note that by making that accusation, you make the same logical mistakes they are, as you do not know their motive, gender, or ethnic background for that matter. I think we could all learn a thing or two from this conversation. 

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

 I mean, why say something like 'Buxton isn't smart enough?' Where does something like that come from? 

 

I kind of want to hit this one in particular, because I don't think it has to be racially motivated. Last spring, Chief and I had this exact same conversation.... about Mauer (though to be fair, it certainly wasn't about his ability to adjust to pitchers, just that he doesn't come across as the sharpest). These things happen all the time. People are going to reach these conclusions for all sorts of observations. 

 

As a matter of fact, I'd would call anyone on this forum a liar if they claimed that they had never made such an accusation about someone else at some point. We all make judgement calls. We do that every day. Whether we should, or simply whether we should start questioning our selves as to what leads to that conclusion is a different issue, but I don't see how questioning Buxton's intelligence suddenly makes someone racist. 

 

It's like there's an unwritten rule here that says that you can only criticize someone if you happen to share the same race or gender, otherwise, you're being racist. This is why I tend to find that motive seeking as intellectually dishonest. It certainly won't foster any conversation.

[Squirrel]

 

I kind of want to hit this one in particular, because I don't think it has to be racially motivated. Last spring, Chief and I had this exact same conversation.... about Mauer (though to be fair, it certainly wasn't about his ability to adjust to pitchers, just that he doesn't come across as the sharpest). These things happen all the time. People are going to reach these conclusions for all sorts of observations. 

 

As a matter of fact, I'd would call anyone on this forum a liar if they claimed that they had never made such an accusation about someone else at some point. We all make judgement calls. We do that every day. Whether we should, or simply whether we should start questioning our selves as to what leads to that conclusion is a different issue, but I don't see how questioning Buxton's intelligence suddenly makes someone racist. 

 

It's like there's an unwritten rule here that says that you can only criticize someone if you happen to share the same race or gender, otherwise, you're being racist. This is why I tend to find that motive seeking as intellectually dishonest. It certainly won't foster any conversation.

I'm going to hit this entire post pretty hard and suggest you reread my entire post.

 

First, I said that of course we can be critical of players. I never said we couldn't criticize someone of a different race or ethnicity from ourselves. So please don't jump off on one point out of context to say something that I didn't say.

 

Second, the part you quoted came within this context: we don't know for sure with anyone when criticisms become personal what is the underlying reasoning. It could be nothing, but it could be something.

 

Followed by, I can wonder, and I do. I question myself as much as anyone else on quite a lot of things, and I think that's what everyone should be doing. The most I can do is be criticial that someone is being disrespectful ... on either side of this ... and I was also clear on that. None of us knows why things are said or not said. And because I might wonder why is not an accusation. This is exactly the problem ... so now we can't even question anything at all? Then nothing changes.

[Craig Arko]

Of course, it costs nothing to say something nice about someone once in a while. Maybe we forget that in our haste to be critical.

[PseudoSABR]

If a person doesn't have an actual factual basis for criticisms that go to a player's character or intelligence that person opens themselves up to valid criticism. We can't just call a person lazy or stupid without having specific facts that go beyond what we've all observed within the lines and not expect some flak. Assumptious and speculative criticisms that go to a person's character is worthy of being knocked down. Now does that necessarily open up a person to criticism about racial sensitivity, perhaps not; but it certainly doesn't preclude it. Sure, it might be that they are cynical or arrogant or just largely assumptious about nature of other people's effort and intelligence; it might not be racism, but whatever it is, it's not founded with facts. And more, when those criticisms in the aggregate get applied disproportionately to players of color, well, it'd be crazy not to at least ask the question. 

 

And really, are we such special snowflakes that asking people to consider if they might have implicit biases is some how offensive and accusatory? Honestly, there's no greater proof of privilege than finding offense in the mere questioning of implicit attitudes. 

 

(And the whole "I criticize Mauer too" angle uses the same logic that "I have Black friend" narrative does. The comparison makes me cringe, and again, focuses too much on the notion that any one person is being accused of anything, when people are going out of there way to say it's not the case.) And yes, all lives matters.

[PseudoSABR]

 

 

Of course, it costs nothing to say something nice about someone once in a while. Maybe we forget that in our haste to be critical.

Is passive aggressive wisdom, still wisdom? When we implore others to be nice, isn't our criticism implicit? (No need to answer, I'm just being difficult.)

[Squirrel]

 

Of course, it costs nothing to say something nice about someone once in a while. Maybe we forget that in our haste to be critical.

That is a truth we need to practice more often, for sure. Thanks for the reminder.

[gunnarthor]

 

I think you'd have a hard time finding anyone in this thread making that case against Sano. There will always be a few there, but I cannot help but wonder how much of that perception is being driven by a Strib hatchet job a couple years back vs. flat out racism as you imply. Perception is a nasty beast to defeat.

 

I think it's possible to think Sano is lazy and not be a racist. I would also note that by making that accusation, you make the same logical mistakes they are, as you do not know their motive, gender, or ethnic background for that matter. I think we could all learn a thing or two from this conversation. 

The posts that I had problems with stated that Sano was lazy/didn't have a good work ethic. People responded why they didn't think Sano was lazy (hard work to rehab TJ surgery, quick to majors, improvement over "down" year, to all-star, etc). Then posters asked why the OP said he thought Sano was lazy and it was because he was smiling during batting practice and getting by on his natural talent, I believe he also said something to the effect that he wasn't able to work hard like Jim Thome did. 

 

Essentially, when there have been some questionable posts, I think most of us have given people the benefit of the doubt and asked them to explain why they did things a certain way. No one has jumped at anyone and said "that's racist!" Ted, the author of the Rosario thread that started this, did a good job of explaining his thinking. But some haven't been able to give good reasons and I think we've seen a lot of that in the Sano thread. I do think that there is a difference between someone saying "hey, Sano is lazy and getting by on natural talent b/c he's smiling at batting practice" and someone else saying, "ugh, those are all unsupported accusations and several of them touch on ugly racial stereotypes."