Race and Rosario

[ThejacKmp]

Lots of talk on Twins Daily about Rosario not running out the popup. Always good to run out a popup. That said, I've seen Dozier barely run out a ground ball to second at least twice this year and haven't heard a peep about it. It made me think about the narratives we build around players and what those narratives are based on. 

 

Narratives are built on draft spot (Mike Pelfrey is a first round pick, give him a shot), biography (Max Kepler is the child of ballerinas), minor league performance (we all love that Dozier suddenly hit bombs in the pros) etc. But we also base these on race. There are stereotypes we didn't create that are passed down, consciously and subconsciously.

 

I wonder how much of Rosario getting called on hustle issues or throwing the ball to the wrong base has to do with some of the biases the media, the coaches and the fans have for Latino players. Thoughts?

[TheLeviathan]

I think you can lump a great deal of the criticism of Sano in with this as well.  

[ashbury]

It's an evergreen topic. Just a few days ago I found the need to take quiet moderator action when someone posted to the effect that #20, #22 and #25 aren't very bright players. If this person wasn't speaking in code, and had reached the same conclusion about 3 players simultaneously, I'm sure he'll be able to get across his point better in some future post.

 

That said, the difference with other players taking less heat than on this play, is that this play was the one-in-a-hundred where not battling his tail off actually blew up on him. If one of these days Dozier fails to reach safely on a routine grounder that the defense unexpectedly has sufficient difficulty with, he'll get the same critique, I'm sure. It's just, such outcomes are really infrequent. But once they do happen, then it's easy to look back at other situations and connect the dots.

 

Zack Granite missed first base at the end of last season. There was plenty of criticism at the time, with people remembering other mistakes the rookie had made.

 

It would be instructive to go back and review the last time Mauer had something like this happen, to see what people at the time said. But I can't think of the last time, and perhaps this Holmesian "dog that didn't bark" is meaningful in itself.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Six of one, half dozen of the other, in my opinion.

 

Yes, race very obviously taints our perceptions of people and players. Most of us are quicker to snap to judgment based on (usually negative) stereotypes. Anyone who claims otherwise is either the most enlightened soul on the planet or, more likely, oblivious to just how systematically society has ingrained certain ideas in our collective heads.

 

With that said, here's the other half dozen: Rosario is kinda known for doing some dumb stuff out on the field. That says absolutely nothing about his Latino-ness, he's just one of those players that makes you shake your head on a fairly regular basis. Sometimes, his energy does amazing things (that balk call against Milwaukee last season)... sometimes, it leads to you wanting to scream at him.

 

And that surely taints the viewer's perception of him as a player. Compare and contrast that to Dozier, who rarely makes the kind of mistakes Rosario makes out in the field (only using Dozier as an example because he was previously mentioned... the same could be said for lots of other players on the Twins of all races).

[Squirrel]

Eddie does some pretty head-scratching things from time to time; and then he does something really great. It's why he's one of my favorite players. He's not boring. But I don't think acknowledging that he does do some head-scratching things once in a while is racially/culturally motivated. Maybe it is for others. However, honing in on him every single time for every single gaffe? Could be, yes. Bringing into the discussion racial or cultural explanations as to why he might not be what you think he should be? Yeah. Definitely. Imo. Although I haven't seen the latter in regards to Eddie ... I have for other players, though.

[Tom Froemming]

There is definitely a lot of covert racism in baseball, in particular with the latino guys, but Eddie Rosario makes a disproportionate amount of air-headed plays, more than any player I've watched on a regular basis. A lot of those mistakes in his earlier days were attributed to him being young and inexperienced, but he's played 370 MLB games now.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I think there is something to be said about not running and assuming it's a race issue the moment someone gets criticized. I agree that it can be a race thing, but I suspect it's a lot less than people want it to be. This is a perception issue, and Rosario has (like it or not) earned it due to a number of boneheaded plays over the last couple seasons. I personally wouldn't say the same about Sano, but truthfully, I don't have an MLB TV subscription, so I'm not quite sure what the deal is there.

 

Like Ash said, Granite heard it for missing a base last year. This isn't as much a race thing, but that people don't have a whole lot of patience for players not doing routine things that they have been coached to do since T ball. Younger players tend to make those mistakes more than older ones. Ultimately, I chalk this up to a learning situation. If Rosario dogs it down the line on that play, he's safe. Hopefully he gets it.

[TheLeviathan]

In general I think Twinsdaily is better than the baseball world about criticisms that are valid rather than racial.

 

But the general baseball world is awful about it.  Some of that bleeds here in the form of constant criticisms of Sano and Rosario in particular, but by and large TwinsDaily is pretty fair as a community.  But the larger baseball world?

 

Awful.  Just awful.

[Mike Sixel]

Racism is there, sure. But people who know me would laugh at the suggestion my criticism is anything other than genuine criticism of a guy that makes too many mistakes for a professional ball player. Nothing more. He makes a lot of mental errors. Pointing them out happens because he keeps making them. It's frustrating, because it is part of what keeps him from being as great as he can be.

[Craig Arko]

I seem to recall Mickey Hatcher and Lew Ford took their fair share of grief over somewhat boneheaded actions.

 

And people were completely merciless to Nick Punto.

[USAFChief]

You know what's racist?

 

Assuming people critical of not running out a popup do so because of the player's race.

 

And I don't appreciate it.

 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

You know what's racist?

 

Assuming people critical of not running out a popup do so because of the player's race.

 

And I don't appreciate it.

And this is why it's so bloody hard to have a conversation on race with white people. We raise our hackles at the mere mention that race might be somehow involved in our decisions, maybe even just a little bit.

 

Read what the OP said again:

"I wonder how much of Rosario getting called on hustle issues or throwing the ball to the wrong base has to do with some of the biases the media, the coaches and the fans have for Latino players. Thoughts?"

 

There are no assumptions there, just a hypothesis and a question.

 

No one is saying that if you're critical of Rosario that you're a racist. In fact, most posters here have conceded that Rosario's routinely bone-headed plays make it hard not to be critical of the guy.

 

But let's turn this on its head a little and examine it from another angle: Nick Punto.

 

You'll have a hell of a time convincing me that Rosario makes significantly more bone-headed plays than Nick Punto did... but Nicky was adored by a large segment of the Twins' fan base, despite the fact that he was not a very good player while Eddie Rosario is a very good player.

 

I mean, Nick Punto (more than once) would try to lay "down" a bunt when the pitcher knew he was bunting so threw a pitch chin high that resulted in a double play... If I remember, he even did this during a postseason game (or was it 163?). The guy dove into first base more times than I can even stomach to think about. He made many base-running gaffes that drove me absolutely up the wall.

 

Yet outside areas such as BYTO, Punto was a fan favorite. Why? Why was Punto "hustling" while Rosario is just a bone head?

[jimmer]

And this is why it's so bloody hard to have a conversation on race with white people. We raise our hackles at the mere mention that race might be somehow involved in our decisions, maybe even just a little bit.

 

Read what the OP said again:

 

"I wonder how much of Rosario getting called on hustle issues or throwing the ball to the wrong base has to do with some of the biases the media, the coaches and the fans have for Latino players. Thoughts?"

 

There are no assumptions there, just a hypothesis and a question.

 

No one is saying that if you're critical of Rosario that you're a racist. In fact, most posters here have conceded that Rosario's routinely bone-headed plays make it hard not to be critical of the guy.

 

But let's turn this on its head a little and examine it from another angle: Nick Punto.

 

You'll have a hell of a time convincing me that Rosario makes significantly more bone-headed plays than Nick Punto did... but Nicky was adored by a large segment of the Twins' fan base, despite the fact that he was not a very good player while Eddie Rosario is a very good player.

 

I mean, Nick Punto (more than once) would try to lay "down" a bunt when the pitcher knew he was bunting so threw a pitch chin high that resulted in a double play... If I remember, he even did this during a postseason game (or was it 163?). The guy dove into first base more times than I can even stomach to think about. He made many base-running gaffes that drove me absolutely up the wall.

 

Yet outside areas such as BYTO, Punto was a fan favorite. Why? Why was Punto "hustling" while Rosario is just a bone head?

I don't know Brock. I have been called a racist by one poster in TD multiple times because of one player on the Twins I didn't like. I gave many reasons but instead of accepting those reasins as to why I didn't like him or debating those issues, I was just called a racist. It was the easiest way to try and dismiss my viewpoint. And it was allowed.

 

It gets old and it makes people leery of criticising anyone that isn't white because the label racist gets thrown around so easily, especially on the internet when people dont have to face the person they are accusing of being a racist. 49 years on this planet, the only time I have ever been accused of racism was on this site. And it was ridiculous allowed to happen over and over and the poster was allowed to stay.

[Mike Sixel]

I never got hte Punto thing, on a logic perspective, but fandom is not logical, so here is why I think people like him....

 

He's not good, but he fake hustled. People love fake hustle. I don't know why, but they do.

 

And, for some, it is certainly the "plucky white dude" syndrome for sure.

 

OTOH, most people here ripped Punto for doing that, sometimes we even got warnings for doing it so often....

[Mike Sixel]

 

I don't know Brock. I have been called a racist by one poster in TD multiple times because of one player on the Twins I didn't like. I gave many reasons but instead of accepting those reasins as to why I didn't like him or debating those issues, I was just called a racist. It was the easiest way to try and dismiss my viewpoint. And it was allowed.

It gets old and it makes people leery of criticising anyone that isn't white because the label racist gets thrown around so easily, especially on the internet when people dont have to face the person they are accusing of being a racist. 49 years on this planet, the only time I have ever been accused of racism was on this site. And it was ridiculous allowed to happen over and over and the poster was allowed to stay.

 

Not to mention all the times you asked them to sign Cuban players back in the day....

[jimmer]

I never got hte Punto thing, on a logic perspective, but fandom is not logical, so here is why I think people like him....

 

He's not good, but he fake hustled. People love fake hustle. I don't know why, but they do.

 

And, for some, it is certainly the "plucky white dude" syndrome for sure.

 

OTOH, most people here ripped Punto for doing that, sometimes we even got warnings for doing it so often....

most of us tore into Punto whenever he slid at first. I always thought his supposed defensive greatness was overexagerated because I thought more talented players would make his supposed great plays with relative ease. Was never a fan of Punto other than the fact that I root for all Twins.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don't know Brock. I have been called a racist by one poster in TD multiple times because of one player on the Twins I didn't like. I gave many reasons but instead of accepting those reasins as to why I didn't like him or debating those issues, I was just called a racist. It was the easiest way to try and dismiss my viewpoint. And it was allowed.

 

It gets old and it makes people leery of criticising anyone that isn't white because the label racist gets thrown around so easily, especially on the internet when people dont have to face the person they are accusing of being a racist. 49 years on this planet, the only time I have ever been accused of racism was on this site. And it was ridiculous allowed to happen over and over and the poster was allowed to stay.

I’m pretty sure I know who you’re talking about and it didn’t escape the mods’ attention. We had MANY conversations with that poster about their propensity to slap everyone with the label of racist.

 

But that’s quite a different situation and reaction to what we’re discussing in this thread. No one is being pointed out and the OP merely asked a question to spur discussion.

[diehardtwinsfan]

 

And this is why it's so bloody hard to have a conversation on race with white people. We raise our hackles at the mere mention that race might be somehow involved in our decisions, maybe even just a little bit.

 

Read what the OP said again:

"I wonder how much of Rosario getting called on hustle issues or throwing the ball to the wrong base has to do with some of the biases the media, the coaches and the fans have for Latino players. Thoughts?"

 

There are no assumptions there, just a hypothesis and a question.

 

No one is saying that if you're critical of Rosario that you're a racist. In fact, most posters here have conceded that Rosario's routinely bone-headed plays make it hard not to be critical of the guy.

 

But let's turn this on its head a little and examine it from another angle: Nick Punto.

 

You'll have a hell of a time convincing me that Rosario makes significantly more bone-headed plays than Nick Punto did... but Nicky was adored by a large segment of the Twins' fan base, despite the fact that he was not a very good player while Eddie Rosario is a very good player.

 

I mean, Nick Punto (more than once) would try to lay "down" a bunt when the pitcher knew he was bunting so threw a pitch chin high that resulted in a double play... If I remember, he even did this during a postseason game (or was it 163?). The guy dove into first base more times than I can even stomach to think about. He made many base-running gaffes that drove me absolutely up the wall.

 

Yet outside areas such as BYTO, Punto was a fan favorite. Why?

 

Perhaps white people who aren't racist don't like someone essentially implying they are racist? Let's start there. It's a charged term that gets brandied about far more often than it should. Said hypothesis puts race in play where it has no business being in play. That will never get good reactions, and it will do more to hamper any meaningful discussion on the matter because of all the meaningless discussion on the matter... and to be quite honest, there's way too much meaningless conversation on race. It tends to cloud where the conversations need to happen.

 

I think you know your own answer to the Punto question, and it has nothing to do with race. People on BYTO, you and me included, watched and paid a lot more attention to baseball than said average fan, and we didn't care much for Punto. Said fan is being fed a line about how he battles his tail off, has grit, etc. Said fan doesn't see the many boneheaded plays, and said fan probably doesn't realize that diving into first causes a person to lose a fraction of a second (or put the logic into this being meaningless in a force situation).

 

The issue here is perception. Yes, perception can be influenced by race. We all do this, consciously in some cases, but unconsciously in most. Rosario has a negative perception by fans, and it's largely earned. Changing that won't be easy. That, I might add, is true for anyone.

 

Once someone has a negative perception, earned or not, there's often very little they can do to change it... no matter how hard they try.

[jimmer]

I’m pretty sure I know who you’re talking about and it didn’t escape the mods’ attention. We had MANY conversations with that poster about their propensity to slap everyone with the label of racist.

fair enough, my issue was that it continued for quite some time. IMO with the amount of times it happened, he should have had enough warnings to be banned.

 

In any event, this isn't about my situation, I was just explaining why sometimes those easily thrown around accusations can really tick some posters off.

[jimmer]

I like watching Rosario, you never know what he might do. A lot of talent in a player who makes occasional boneheaded mistakes, but also makes so great plays. Players have flaws, even the very best ones. He isn't any different.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Perhaps white people who aren't racist don't like someone essentially implying they are racist? Let's start there. It's a charged term that gets brandied about far more often than it should. Said hypothesis puts race in play where it has no business being in play. That will never get good reactions, and it will do more to hamper any meaningful discussion on the matter because of all the meaningless discussion on the matter... and to be quite honest, there's way too much meaningless conversation on race. It tends to cloud where the conversations need to happen.

 

I think you know your own answer to the Punto question, and it has nothing to do with race. People on BYTO, you and me included, watched and paid a lot more attention to baseball than said average fan, and we didn't care much for Punto. Said fan is being fed a line about how he battles his tail off, has grit, etc. Said fan doesn't see the many boneheaded plays, and said fan probably doesn't realize that diving into first causes a person to lose a fraction of a second (or put the logic into this being meaningless in a force situation).

 

The issue here is perception. Yes, perception can be influenced by race. We all do this, consciously in some cases, but unconsciously in most. Rosario has a negative perception by fans, and it's largely earned. Changing that won't be easy. That, I might add, is true for anyone.

 

Once someone has a negative perception, earned or not, there's often very little they can do to change it... no matter how hard they try.

See, I simply disagree. I think this is exactly the kind of situation where talking about race in a constructive manner is important. Challenging our subtle daily biases is a huge component of modern racism; the blatant stuff is easy to spot and has been challenged for decades now so there's little point in discussing it anymore. I think as a culture, we white people have been able to easily brush off the more underlying forms of our bias just because we "don't use the N word" or "have black friends".

 

I put a lot of thought into race. A lot. And despite me spending what is probably a disproportionate amount of time thinking about it, I find myself in a bit of a quandry right now about my preconceived notions of black culture and how it relates to parenting (many of you know I'm fostering right now). It has led me to some really uncomfortable conversations with myself and I consider myself rather progressive in regards to race and how it affects many Americans. If I'm struggling with these kinds of questions, I feel it's pretty safe to say most other white Americans likely have issues with it as well.

 

But anyway, I think it's a big problem that we have a negative gut reaction to anything regarding race, especially when the original statement isn't even a little bit accusatory.

 

When something like this thread happens and we have a negative reaction, we should be asking ourselves "Why am I so upset about this?" and delving into why we have such a strong emotional reaction to a pretty benign statement, not lashing out with a "I'M NOT A RACIST" response because that wasn't really the question in the first place. No one here was called a racist; again, a question was posed asking whether our preconceived notions of race impacts our judgments of non-white players.

 

When put that way, the reaction of "I'M NOT A RACIST" seems a bit out of proportion, doesn't it? Yet why do so many white Americans immediately default to that response? It's not healthy and prevents us from having some pretty important conversations.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

fair enough, my issue was that it continued for quite some time. IMO with the amount of times it happened, he should have had enough warnings to be banned.

In any event, this isn't about my situation, I was just explaining why sometimes those easily thrown around accusations can really tick some posters off.

Sometimes, it takes a lot longer to get to the point of banning than it should with some posters. But know that, more often than not, we're trying to rehabilitate the poster, not immediately eject them off the board.

 

Ultimately, this poster proved resistant to rehabilitation, IIRC.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't agree at all that it wasn't implied very strongly that people here questioning him are racist in their motiviation. I think that's quite clear, actually.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I don't agree at all that it wasn't implied very strongly that people here questioning him are racist in their motiviation. I think that's quite clear, actually.

I've read the post half a dozen times now I and view it very differently.

 

And I think that's part of the problem, as I pointed out in my last post. It feels to me that too often, we knee-jerk at the mere suggestion of racial bias and it's counter-productive to our stated goals as a society.

 

The OP phrased that post about as delicately as one could phrase a post on this subject, yet still received blowback for it.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I've read the post half a dozen times now I and view it very differently.

 

And I think that's part of the problem, as I pointed out in my last post. It feels to me that too often, we knee-jerk at the mere suggestion of racial bias and it's counter-productive to our stated goals as a society.

 

The OP phrased that post about as delicately as one could phrase a post on this subject, yet still received blowback for it.

 

I guess I'm talking more about the original post in teh game recap thread....and the replies.

 

If he doesn't think anyone is being racist.....why is he asking if this is because of race? Just random?

[TheLeviathan]

 

You know what's racist?

 

Assuming people critical of not running out a popup do so because of the player's race.

 

And I don't appreciate it.

 

I agree, we shouldn't do that, but as Brock said....I don't think anyone is.  Where we start to cross into racism territory is not in the single instances of criticism but in the patterns of criticism, their forcefulness, and in how mean-spirited they are.

 

Kent Hrbek was beloved as the husky white dude that was an "agile for a big man" first baseman.  Miguel Sano, by my eyes, looks to be in better shape, is playing a more demanding position, and is a better baseball player and look at the stark contrast in how he's treated.  Do I think that is chalked up solely to race?  No.  Do I think race is a factor for everyone criticizing Sano?  No.  But do I see an overall pattern of criticism that seems ridiculous relative to those two men?  Absolutely.  And I think race is a major reason why, whether it be overtly or subconsciously.  

 

I see the same patterns in the way a lot of established baseball fans and players treat latin players in particular.  Ian Kinsler walked himself straight into it last year with some bone-headed remarks.  But that undercurrent of "they don't play the right way" is strong in baseball.

 

I'm thankful that, by and large, that isn't the case here at TD.  But it does creep in from time to time.  

 

And with all that said...yeah....Eddie should've jogged that one out.  Something about that pop-up confused everyone in the infield, but I'd still like to see him jog it out.  But I'm not one to worry too much about that because I have yet to see a major league player who runs out every play.  They all give up on a play from time to time.  Eddie just picked a bad time to do it.

[Craig Arko]

I don't see racism here.

 

I do, however, see white privilege. They aren't (exactly) the same thing. But the results can come uncomfortably close to one another. One is more active, the other more passive.

 

And I'm not talking about Rosario, I'm talking about this thread.

[Mike Sixel]

Interesting perspective. Genuine question, as we are friends....

 

how are chief, jimmer, and I showing our privelage?

[jimmer]

I agree, we shouldn't do that, but as Brock said....I don't think anyone is. Where we start to cross into racism territory is not in the single instances of criticism but in the patterns of criticism, their forcefulness, and in how mean-spirited they are.

 

Kent Hrbek was beloved as the husky white dude that was an "agile for a big man" first baseman. Miguel Sano, by my eyes, looks to be in better shape, is playing a more demanding position, and is a better baseball player and look at the stark contrast in how he's treated. Do I think that is chalked up solely to race? No. Do I think race is a factor for everyone criticizing Sano? No. But do I see an overall pattern of criticism that seems ridiculous relative to those two men? Absolutely. And I think race is a major reason why, whether it be overtly or subconsciously.

 

I see the same patterns in the way a lot of established baseball fans and players treat latin players in particular. Ian Kinsler walked himself straight into it last year with some bone-headed remarks. But that undercurrent of "they don't play the right way" is strong in baseball.

 

I'm thankful that, by and large, that isn't the case here at TD. But it does creep in from time to time.

 

And with all that said...yeah....Eddie should've jogged that one out. Something about that pop-up confused everyone in the infield, but I'd still like to see him jog it out. But I'm not one to worry too much about that because I have yet to see a major league player who runs out every play. They all give up on a play from time to time. Eddie just picked a bad time to do it.

exactly, I always crack up when a player gets dogged for jogging to 1B after he hits a towering popup instead of sprinting. First, he likely reaches first anyway if it drops and two. Second, if he runs all out and it drops, he is probably hung up between 1st and 2nd and makes an out. Then people rag on him for making a bad baseball play. Third. It's an out 999 times out of a 1000 anyway.

[TheLeviathan]

 

exactly, I always crack up when a player gets dogged for jogging to 1B after he hits a towering popup instead if sprinting. First, he likely reaches first anyway if it drops and two. Second, if he runs all out and it drops, he is probably hung up between 1st and 2nd and makes an out. Then people rag on him for making a bad baseball play. Third. It's an out 999 times out of a 1000 anyway.

 

I gave up on the delusion that you "hustle on every play" as a child.  I remember a game (only vaguely) when Bremer was chastising someone for not running out a ground ball and cited Kirby as a player who hustles every play.  Lo and Behold, Kirby's next two ABs he barely left the box on one and half-heartedly jogged on the other.

 

Myth busted for this kid.  And I've never bought that nonsense since.  Didn't make me think less of Kirby, just made me realize how silly that idea was.