Minor Leaguers and Minimum Wage

[Rosterman]

Some ways, it seems strange that TC Bear might make more money than you average minor league player.

 

Of course, he can hit home runs on command.

[Rosterman]

 

The whole situation is bass-ackwards.

 

Minor leaguers need the union, not the Major leaguers, i.e. the country club, whose per diems exceed minor league pay, and earn in a year what most folks slave away for until they are 65.

 

I'm gonna puke next time I hear a major leaguer go all Lech Walesa on us and talk about solidarity.

 

The owners are yet more odious, and deserve to lose at every stage, but really, it's millionaires fighting over the crumbs, each of which is a fortune. 

 

I used to see ballgames at the Met for $2. Harmon Killebrew used to sell cars in the off-season. The money in MLB is ridiculous. They are a great depression away from irrelevance.

 Or a major league saying they are thinking about their family and making them comfortable, especially when they enter the free agency days.

 

Of course, ownership makes sure they don't lose money. As player salary rises, everything else in the sport increases, too. If DECENT hot dogs were still a buck and beer 50-cents and seats $2.00, maybe he roster would be full, again, of guys making $35,000-60,000 a year.

 

And, yes, many a player HAD to have a job in the off-season that didn't involve house-hunting, or worry more about life after leaving the game.

 

But playing major league baseball is an elite moment in the profession. Only s many get to do it (think, the Twins have had roughly 800 guys put on the uniform at the major league level over half-a-century). 

 

There are career opportunities, continuing on as coaches and managers and scouts or front office jobs (talk about people underpaid...because of supply and demand). If you do stick it out in the minors, you do see a bit larger payday around year 5-6. Or if you do get a 40-man roster spot. 

 

But it is a profession of temporary employment, high turn around (always someone else looking to take your job).

 

But the owners still sit in their money bins counting the bucks and trying to figure out a way to seem competitive, but then convincing fans that "some win, some lose."

[Mr. Brooks]

I agree with your logic, I disagree with your math.

 

I am guessing with practice, games, traveling, meetings, workouts etc.. that a minor league puts in at least 60 hours.

At 15/per hour, the first 40 hours would be 600.

then the next 20 would be another 450, so 1050 a week * 4 = $4200 a month.

Which I believe would double the current average on a whole, it is like 4 times rookie league salary and about $1500 more that AAA depending on service years.

 

I would guess the twins have about 200-250 minor leaguers? So it would be closer to 2.5-3.0 million and that is just me guessing. Of course most teams piss that away on stupid major league contracts.

Why are you using $15/hr for your math? The minimum wage is substantially lower than that in nearly every jurisdiction where these players earn their money.

[Mr. Brooks]

I'm not defending this, not at all.

But, how are apprenticeship type employees governed in other industries? Is it common for those types of employees to be paid less than minimum wage, or is this unprecedented?

[Mr. Brooks]

I'd also be curious what percentage of milb players currently make less than minimum wage.

What percentage of players in the systems received signing bonuses?

It's probably even less money than some have suggested to ensure that they all clear minimum wage, when you factor in that at least a fair amount of them received a fairly significant signing bonus.

[TheLeviathan]

And here I thought the state of pay for minor leaguers couldnt get any worse.

 

MLB has done plenty to annoy me, but this may kill all the doe-eyed love for it I have left.

[DocBauer]

Reading the one offered quote concerning how to govern and measure hours on the job, forcing a player to go home and not get extra practice time, etc, I grudgingly have to agree. Just a couple for instances: 1] we can all claim travel expenses on taxes for many occupations...this does not apply to milb players. 2] people who work on commission sometimes put in extra hours, perhaps in training or meeting situations, to further themselves but are not always compensated for such.

 

The solution is pretty simple to me: treat milb ballplayers as salaried employees with a fair earning compensation!

 

Honestly, considering the vast billions of dollars involved in MLB, I'm not sure the owners would hardly blink at a couple million more spent for payroll on their milb personnel. But to me, this is not on the owners. I mean, even if the Twins wanted a pay raise for their entire system, would they be allowed To? I think it's a worthwhile question.

 

I put the onus on the player's union. Unless I am greatly mistaken, aren't high round pick "bonus babies" still paid the same minimum wages per month? Or has that also changed? How many players jumped from high school or college straight to the majors in the modern era? Virtually everyone spent at least a year or two in the minors before they made it. But then it's "I got mine, hope you get lucky to get your too"? That's just wrong.

[Major League Ready]

 

Reading the one offered quote concerning how to govern and measure hours on the job, forcing a player to go home and not get extra practice time, etc, I grudgingly have to agree. Just a couple for instances: 1] we can all claim travel expenses on taxes for many occupations...this does not apply to milb players. 2] people who work on commission sometimes put in extra hours, perhaps in training or meeting situations, to further themselves but are not always compensated for such.

The solution is pretty simple to me: treat milb ballplayers as salaried employees with a fair earning compensation!

Honestly, considering the vast billions of dollars involved in MLB, I'm not sure the owners would hardly blink at a couple million more spent for payroll on their milb personnel. But to me, this is not on the owners. I mean, even if the Twins wanted a pay raise for their entire system, would they be allowed To? I think it's a worthwhile question.

I put the onus on the player's union. Unless I am greatly mistaken, aren't high round pick "bonus babies" still paid the same minimum wages per month? Or has that also changed? How many players jumped from high school or college straight to the majors in the modern era? Virtually everyone spent at least a year or two in the minors before they made it. But then it's "I got mine, hope you get lucky to get your too"? That's just wrong.

 

Doc, I am impressed You just proved an ability to be objective that is obviously not present in the vast majority here. Salaries have risen astronomically.  In other words, the owners have ponied up. The players could have elected to let minor league players participate in this good fortune.  However, the people who should be the most sympathetic could have chosen to include MiLB players and they said we will going to keep every penny for ourselves. This group someone ignores this and make the owners out to be 100% at fault. 

 

BTW ... The salaried employee is a very good solution to MiLB players. 

[Major League Ready]

 

As I posted in the other baseball forum, if this passes, I'm done watching or listening to regular season baseball....and might have to stop coming here also. Heck, even if it doesn't pass......they asked for this. Reprehensible behavior. Pure and utter greed, but hey, heavan forbid we pay the minor leaguers real money when the owners are struggling so much just to make their next billion.

 

So, you are going to quit watching because of the owners greed.  Apparently, the players greed is not a problem.  It is well-established virtually every player has no loyalty to their fans or teammates one free agency arrives.  Not sure I blame them but that's not the point.

[Mike Sixel]

 

So, you are going to quit watching because of the owners greed.  Apparently, the players greed is not a problem.  It is well-established virtually every player has no loyalty to their fans or teammates one free agency arrives.  Not sure I blame them but that's not the point.

 

Correct, the players' greed does not bother me. Heck, the owners' doesn't either.....it's trying to get laws passed, that basically go against what we have, as a society, agreed is correct. 

 

If you don't have an issue with getting special laws passed to treat one group of humans less than we've agreed to treat others, that's your choice too, just as it is mine.

[Major League Ready]

Here are the facts …

 

The average salary in 1970 when the first CBA was established was 29,303.  Adjusted for inflation 188,046. Therefore, after adjusting for inflation MLB salaries have increased 23 X the level of 1970.

 

In 1980 when the amount of revenue allocated to player salaries increased by 4.5X 1970 levels, the players could have opted to share some of that increase with the MiLB players. However, they opted to keep 100 of that increase.  

 

In 1990 when the amount of revenue allocated to player salaries increased by 20X 1970 levels. The players have opted to keep 10% of that increase.  

 

In 2000, MLB player salaries increased to $1,895,630 or an increase of 64X the level of 1970 compensation. The MLB players have opted to keep 100 of that increase.  

 

In 2010, MLB player salaries increased to 3,014,572 which is an increase of over 100X  1970 compensation. The MLB players have opted to keep 100 of that increase.  

 

The average salary in 2017 was 4.4M or roughly 150X 1970 compensation which equates to 23X 2017 salaries. The average MLB player makes nearly 100 times the average American. 

 

The Player’s union has had a very longtime and ample opportunity to share with MiLB players.  Perhaps it’s time for MLB players to share the wealth.  The owners are not without fault but it is difficult to mandate how the other side of a CBA allocates funds.  The Player's association has done a relatively poor job of representing the bulk of MLB players.  Superstars are collecting a very large percentage of the total dollars. While the relative fairness of this outcome is debatable, what is not debatable is that MiLB players have been completely ignored.  The premise that this all falls on the owners is wildly biased.

 

BTW … MLB salaries are roughly 10X Japanese players which is the next highest league. If the owners were as greedy as the players, MLB players would not be making 10X the amount paid by the next highest paying alternative.

[Major League Ready]

 

Correct, the players' greed does not bother me. Heck, the owners' doesn't either.....it's trying to get laws passed, that basically go against what we have, as a society, agreed is correct. 

 

If you don't have an issue with getting special laws passed to treat one group of humans less than we've agreed to treat others, that's your choice too, just as it is mine.

 

Mike, we don't agree at all in terms of the nature of this action. MiLB is professional preparation not all that different from college. It's just a lot more fun than college. I did not get paid anything for the 8 years of profession preparation I went through. As a matter of fact, I paid a substantial amount to acquire that preparation.

 

In addition, had the MLB players shared some of the wealth, this would be absolutely no issue.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Mike, we don't agree at all in terms of the nature of this action. MiLB is professional preparation not all that different from college. It's just a lot more fun than college. I did not get paid anything for the 8 years of profession preparation I went through. As a matter of fact, I paid a substantial amount to acquire that preparation.

 

In addition, had the MLB players shared some of the wealth, this would be absolutely no issue.

 

Is it? Aren't most players actually career minor leaguers, and never make the majors? It's very different than college, not even close, I'd argue.

 

But yes, we have a very different view. It's a job. They should have the same rights as other employees, imo.

 

And yes, the union is not their friend, very true.

[nicksaviking]

 

Mike, we don't agree at all in terms of the nature of this action. MiLB is professional preparation not all that different from college. It's just a lot more fun than college. I did not get paid anything for the 8 years of profession preparation I went through. As a matter of fact, I paid a substantial amount to acquire that preparation.

 

In addition, had the MLB players shared some of the wealth, this would be absolutely no issue.

 

I might buy into that if MiLB had a better job placement percentage.

 

Most of these guys are just cannon fodder helping the true prospects reach their goal. And most of the true prospects already got paid well considering the majority of them were high draft picks.

[ashbury]

Calling someone salaried isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card. If someone works under your direction and you routinely require greater than 40 hours a week, the pay had better be such that minimum wage laws and overtime laws aren't violated.

[Major League Ready]

 

I might buy into that if MiLB had a better job placement percentage.

 

Most of these guys are just cannon fodder helping the true prospects reach their goal. And most of the true prospects already got paid well considering the majority of them were high draft picks.

I have to admit the college comparison is a real stretch. At the same time the guys who are just "cannon fodder" have the option to get a real job anytime they chose.  Perhaps if the did move on the teams would have to pay a wage to retain them.

 

How does any of this detract from the fact the revenue allocated to players has increased by an almost unimaginable amount and the MLB players have not shared this with MiLB players? Posters here are outraged with owners when the people who were in the same position don't feel MiLB players should share in the massive increase in the pool of $$$ available to players.  

 

The union could have bargained for 3% of the salaries of the top 60 players in the league to be allocated to MiLB player salaries. Those players made an average of $22,465,892.  The 3% would equate to $673,977. The salaries of those top players would be reduced to an average of $21,791,915 per year or to put it in perspective well over 400X what the average Amercian makes.   Isnt $22M/year enough?  Are the owners the primary reason that none of the massive increase has made it's way to MiLB players?

[TheLeviathan]

Cant we blame the union for exploiting minor leaguers for leverage and be even more upset the league is using lobbying in Congress to further cement them into miniscule pay and benefits?

 

I dont like either side on this, but trying to slip this into law is cartoonishly dastardly. Montgomery Burns would think this is shameful.

[Steve Lein]

 

Calling someone salaried isn't a get-out-of-jail-free card. If someone works under your direction and you routinely require greater than 40 hours a week, the pay had better be such that minimum wage laws and overtime laws aren't violated.

 

I'd just like this idea explained a little.

 

In my professions I've always been an "exempt" employee. This means my "salary" is the same no matter how much I work. If I went in and requested more pay because I worked a 60 or 80 hour week my HR department and boss would tell me to get the 'eff out of here. Same thing I'd tell them if they told me I wasn't getting the same pay this period because I only worked 20 hours that week.

 

But really, this isn't the idea I was challenging specifically (if that is what prompted this response).

 

The idea they have to be considered as Hourly employees is. I'm pretty sure they make a "salary". The fact that the salary is so low that it wouldn't meet these thresholds is the issue, not that they'd have to pay them based on the actual hours they put in. The amount of hours are their choice, just like it is mine at my job (and I better do enough, or more, to make sure I'm fulfilling my jobs requirements).

 

How much of a raise in salary do they need to meet the thresholds? It's hardly anything in the world of MLB money, as has been explained over an over. $15 an hour is 600 dollars a week. That's what, not even double the pittance they get paid now? ($~1600/month on average I believe?) And only for half the year, mind you? 

 

Why they are fighting this so hard, and pulling out reasons like this to do so, absolutely baffles me.

[ashbury]

But really, this isn't the idea I was challenging specifically (if that is what prompted this response).

Usually I hit the Quote button, but for some reason in this case I didn't.

 

I think I had Doc Bauer's post in mind when I wrote my post: "The solution is pretty simple to me: treat milb ballplayers as salaried employees with a fair earning compensation!"

 

And my wording probably came across like I thought I was at odds with that, whereas I was mainly clarifying what "fair earning compensation" probably needs to mean in terms of the various laws affecting employees. It's not enough to call the paycheck a salary, it really needs to comply.

 

The fact MLB is applying for an exemption is all the evidence I need to believe they know for themselves that they are out of compliance.

 

[Mike Sixel]

 

Cant we blame the union for exploiting minor leaguers for leverage and be even more upset the league is using lobbying in Congress to further cement them into miniscule pay and benefits?

I dont like either side on this, but trying to slip this into law is cartoonishly dastardly. Montgomery Burns would think this is shameful.

 

This. 100% this.

[jkcarew]

 

_{Regarding minor league MLB-affiliate players, the solution is relatively simple...the solution must come from collective bargaining.  While it would be nice (and appropriate) if these minor-leaguers saw a bigger slice of the pie, I don't think it would make a material difference in the life of most players.  All leagues except AAA are "up-or-out" propositions.  Nevertheless, they should be paid better regardless, and it would make it more viable for the 'career' AAA players.} 

 

_{Regarding independent minor leagues, I don't know that there is an answer.  I don't think the business model will support much of an increase in costs.  Those leagues already have tremendous franchise turnover.  The Saints are not at all typical or representative of the vast majority of these independent franchises.  (I also don't know the magnitude of the problem regarding independent leagues, as these players may put in significantly less time than do the players playing for MLB affiliates.)}

 

 

[bean5302]

I don't think many of the recent posts are actually pertinent to the original topic.

 

Arguing MiLB players shouldn't be better compensated because MLB players (who have 100% of the power in the union) have enormous compensation levels isn't on topic.

 

Arguing you work 60-80hrs a week where you aren't appropriately compensated for that work, you don't switch employers, you don't choose to cut back to a reasonable work life balance and you don't demand more compensation doesn't have any relevance in regard to MiLB players working for under minimum wage.

 

Simply because other problems in the world exist doesn't mean MiLB players should have their ability to even TRY to fight for LEGALLY REQUIRED compensation stripped from them.

 

I think the big relevant point is the draft pick slot money and bonus pools for teams. No pick in the 10 rounds of the MLB draft in 2017 signed for less than a $131,100 bonus. That will carry you quite a ways even if you were to consider losing out on scholarships. For the un-drafted free agents who sign MiLB contracts, they're also usually also commanding big signing bonuses.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I don't think many of the recent posts are actually pertinent to the original topic.

 

Arguing MiLB players shouldn't be better compensated because MLB players (who have 100% of the power in the union) have enormous compensation levels isn't on topic.

 

Arguing you work 60-80hrs a week where you aren't appropriately compensated for that work, you don't switch employers, you don't choose to cut back to a reasonable work life balance and you don't demand more compensation doesn't have any relevance in regard to MiLB players working for under minimum wage.

 

Simply because other problems in the world exist doesn't mean MiLB players should have their ability to even TRY to fight for LEGALLY REQUIRED compensation stripped from them.

 

I think the big relevant point is the draft pick slot money and bonus pools for teams. No pick in the 10 rounds of the MLB draft in 2017 signed for less than a $131,100 bonus. That will carry you quite a ways even if you were to consider losing out on scholarships. For the un-drafted free agents who sign MiLB contracts, they're also usually also commanding big signing bonuses.

 

that's what, 2-3 years of earnings? It doesn't carry you very far if the next few years you make dirt.

[The Wise One]

A couple of years ago the dancers union and the Colorado Ballet settled a contract.  Apprentice dancers got 330 a week, with year around health coverage.   A ballet apprenticeship would be about as close to MiLB as I can think of in terms time spent per day  working on their craft      Both are a job you are working to better yourself.  There  isn't a timeclock, it isn't overtime. It becomes more like a way of life. It is what you have to do to get better.   Sure they all should get decent compensation.  In ballet, there is isn't the money.  In baseball there is. If the owners eventually lose their exemption, little chance, all they really have to do is adjust the bonus slots down from the draft.   Your pie is the same size for amateur  spending, just cut a little different. 

 

Congress will give the baseball people their exemption. if you think they are for working people, poor people, oh boy , I won't go there

[Rosterman]

 

that's what, 2-3 years of earnings? It doesn't carry you very far if the next few years you make dirt.

That is the chance you take. I don't know how many real jobs in the real world pay you a bonus to come work for them as a guy graduating from high school or in the third year of a collegiate program.

 

But, yes, the reality is that they CAN be paid more when you do see the bonus money paid out to guys who may not make it past year one, or the amount of money spent on wasted free agents (Anibal Sanchez, for example, got $400,000 for a spring training looksee...how much could that have gone to make some minor league guys more comfortable).

 

But, hey....talk to people working sales, or in the ticket office of the Twins, or other jobs...see how they are getting shafted, either as salary people with more than fulltime work demands, or underpaid fo being available for limited times and duties.

 

The money is there. Overall. It just needs to be allocated. But it is also a profession where people are lining up to work (and for what...hope for that beginning, then average, major league salary.....a well-paying front office position in a temporary profession...thr lovr of seeing free baseball games from your bench off-field, waiting for the game to end so you can clean the stands)?

 

And, truth be told, we haven't established a mandatory minimum wage today now yet. 

 

And let's not talk benefits. What is medical for minor league guys? Again, they get food/road monies. They get to try and receive endorsements, right? Hell, some have even started to charge for autographs!

[Mr. Brooks]

that's what, 2-3 years of earnings? It doesn't carry you very far if the next few years you make dirt.

It's significantly more than that.

Keep in mind, these are 16 to 20 year olds starting out in the minor leagues, so they need to be compared to other people in their age brackets.

According to US Census data, the median annual income for the 16-24 year old age bracket is about $11,500.

So that $131,000 is more than an average US worker will make during that 8 year window, combined. With about $40k left over. And that's just the bonus, that doesn't include their salaries.

 

Again, I'm not arguing that they shouldn't be paid more, I think they should. But it does need to be looked at with the context of what similar workers their age would make, because yes the owners are making billions of dollars, but they aren't really making that money off most of these milb players. I don't think milb teams are very profitable, they are making their money off the players who are good enough to play in the major leagues, which most of these guys will never be.

[The Wise One]

 

that's what, 2-3 years of earnings? It doesn't carry you very far if the next few years you make dirt.

for seasonal work like baseball. Check your math.  try about 4-5 years

[The Wise One]

 

That is the chance you take. I don't know how many real jobs in the real world pay you a bonus to come work for them as a guy graduating from high school or in the third year of a collegiate program.

 

But, yes, the reality is that they CAN be paid more when you do see the bonus money paid out to guys who may not make it past year one, or the amount of money spent on wasted free agents (Anibal Sanchez, for example, got $400,000 for a spring training looksee...how much could that have gone to make some minor league guys more comfortable).

 

But, hey....talk to people working sales, or in the ticket office of the Twins, or other jobs...see how they are getting shafted, either as salary people with more than fulltime work demands, or underpaid fo being available for limited times and duties.

 

The money is there. Overall. It just needs to be allocated. But it is also a profession where people are lining up to work (and for what...hope for that beginning, then average, major league salary.....a well-paying front office position in a temporary profession...thr lovr of seeing free baseball games from your bench off-field, waiting for the game to end so you can clean the stands)?

 

And, truth be told, we haven't established a mandatory minimum wage today now yet. 

 

And let's not talk benefits. What is medical for minor league guys? Again, they get food/road monies. They get to try and receive endorsements, right? Hell, some have even started to charge for autographs!

a minor league sinning bonus as a front loaded  contract, Who knew?

[Major League Ready]

 

I guess they are remaining true to their history,  They were not exactly generous with even the major league players until they were forced into it.  People might complain about how much the big league players ,make now, but if the people writing the checks had their way, the players would probably still need to get second jobs in the off season, be completely at the mercy of their team for the entirety of their career, and be desperate enough to be tempted to throw a world series.

 

What do you mean by "forced to"?

[Major League Ready]

 

that's what, 2-3 years of earnings? It doesn't carry you very far if the next few years you make dirt.

 

This is a poor depiction of the actual situation. The 131,000 is not their total comp so why are you comparing based on $131,000? You have not considered the monthly pay or that the difference between college players and 16 year olds.  $131,000 is well-above the pay for an average 16-18 y/o.  You also failed to consider housing and meals.  Take all these things into consideration and the situation is not what you have depicted here.  It’s a 6 month job and you are considering the relative fairness based on a 12 month standard.   

 

You also fail to consider a college player that takes more than 3 years in the minors might need to face the fact they probably won’t make it. Owners should not be held accountable because a guy who is never going to make it wants to continue to play baseball because it’s a lot cooler than a real job. Based on 3 years $131,000 + monthly comp and meals is roughly $50,000/year or about the same amount as the average American. A 16-18 year old on average makes about the same as MilB players in the lower levels and that does not consider the signing bonus.

 

You have also failed to consider the fact that teams paid out $245,806,800 in draft bonuses.  Go ahead and complain how the money is distributed to b!%$h about the amount is ludicrous. This topic tends to elicit irrational thought processes for most people. Rushing to the conclusion that it’s the greedy owners fault is very parochial thinking. Why shouldn’t bonus amount be considered in compensation?  The actually disparity where income is concerned is always portrayed without considering the compensation paid up front.  That makes absolutely no sense. Perhaps more to the point is the fact the distribution of those bonus funds need to be reallocated. This problem could be very easily rectified by taking even 10% of the bonus money and reallocating it to MiLB wages. Take 20% and all MilB players would be doing great.